sunshinestate1992
New member
im an CAtholic when people ask me what ur religon i dont say christain
i say a catholic.
i say a catholic.
Imagine no religion
- Thread starter monkey
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WillKill4Food
New member
I'm a Baptist. When people ask me my religion, I say Christian. Then, I may or may not say Baptist. Being a Baptist means to me the way I worship. Christianity is my religion, and my way of salvation.
WillKill4Food
New member
monkey said:
monkey
Guest
Two points:
1) I am personally VERY tolerant of others belief systems, whatever they are. The problem arises when people want to shove their belief systems in my face, tell me what to do, how to do it, what not to do, what to think, what not to think, how my government should make laws, etc., etc. ad infinitum.
As long as THEIR belief system remains THEIRS, I have no problem with it. When they insist on trying to make it OURS, or MINE....well, that is the problem.
Also, I agree with what Finn said, that religions that feel a need to spread, are a problem. Today there are really only two religions that feel that need to spread. Christianity and Islam. Can you say bloodshed and death?
2) As I said in an earlier post, I think it is the height of arrogance that Christians call anyone who is not a Christian an "Atheist". To instantly assume that because one does not believe in the Christian GOD, then one believes in NOTHING, or has NO FAITH, is arrogant. Is a Buddhist an 'Atheist'? Is a Hindu an 'Atheist'? Is a Pagan an 'Atheist'?
Why must Christians view people of other religions as having the WRONG religion, or being misguided, or lost, or whatever?
OK, I said two points, but here is a couple of sub points:
Of course I know that religious threads can sometimes get contentious. But one of the questions I asked in the opening post was, can religion be discussed on internet forums? Perhaps that will be answered here. Personally, my answer would be yes, it can.
I didn't just start this thread to mix the chemicals, sit back and watch the fireworks. I think that we can have an interesting and thoughtful discussion of the issues.
It was another message board that inspired this thread. That message board is dominated by fanatical right wing Christians. So of course any intelligent discussion of religion there was right out from the beginning. The Raven on the other hand is a far more tolerant and friendly place conducive to interesting discussions.
If I seem to be somewhat aggressive in my stance toward organized Christianity it is only because personally I believe that a 'live and let live' approach with them is dangerous when one considers the degree to which they are trying to gain more and more power, and trying to subjugate the governments and institutions that most of us live under. I feel a need to confront those things that are trying to tyrannize me. I feel a need to speak out.
I only wish that the Christians would just keep their beliefs to themselves. A lot of them do, as some have talked about here on the Raven. But too many of them (Organized Christianity) don't.
1) I am personally VERY tolerant of others belief systems, whatever they are. The problem arises when people want to shove their belief systems in my face, tell me what to do, how to do it, what not to do, what to think, what not to think, how my government should make laws, etc., etc. ad infinitum.
As long as THEIR belief system remains THEIRS, I have no problem with it. When they insist on trying to make it OURS, or MINE....well, that is the problem.
Also, I agree with what Finn said, that religions that feel a need to spread, are a problem. Today there are really only two religions that feel that need to spread. Christianity and Islam. Can you say bloodshed and death?
2) As I said in an earlier post, I think it is the height of arrogance that Christians call anyone who is not a Christian an "Atheist". To instantly assume that because one does not believe in the Christian GOD, then one believes in NOTHING, or has NO FAITH, is arrogant. Is a Buddhist an 'Atheist'? Is a Hindu an 'Atheist'? Is a Pagan an 'Atheist'?
Why must Christians view people of other religions as having the WRONG religion, or being misguided, or lost, or whatever?
OK, I said two points, but here is a couple of sub points:
Of course I know that religious threads can sometimes get contentious. But one of the questions I asked in the opening post was, can religion be discussed on internet forums? Perhaps that will be answered here. Personally, my answer would be yes, it can.
I didn't just start this thread to mix the chemicals, sit back and watch the fireworks. I think that we can have an interesting and thoughtful discussion of the issues.
It was another message board that inspired this thread. That message board is dominated by fanatical right wing Christians. So of course any intelligent discussion of religion there was right out from the beginning. The Raven on the other hand is a far more tolerant and friendly place conducive to interesting discussions.
If I seem to be somewhat aggressive in my stance toward organized Christianity it is only because personally I believe that a 'live and let live' approach with them is dangerous when one considers the degree to which they are trying to gain more and more power, and trying to subjugate the governments and institutions that most of us live under. I feel a need to confront those things that are trying to tyrannize me. I feel a need to speak out.
I only wish that the Christians would just keep their beliefs to themselves. A lot of them do, as some have talked about here on the Raven. But too many of them (Organized Christianity) don't.
WillKill4Food
New member
I'm sorry, but I don't think it is very tolerant when you accuse Christianity as being worthless and the cause of strife.
How many Christians have you heard of recently blowing up buildings?
I don't know a single Christian that thinks non-Christians are Athiests. The term was originally used by the Romans (or Greeks maybe) to refer to someone that didn't believe in Roman Gods/Goddesses. However, the term means someone without religion and that is the way I have always heard it interpretated and used.
"Why must Christians view people of other religions as having the WRONG religion, or being misguided, or lost, or whatever?"
Atheism is not a religion. That is why it is atheism. You admit in this sentence that you are singling out Christians, when there are many religions that do the same. We are Christians because we think we are right. If we didn't think that Jesus is our Savior, we wouldn't be Christians.
Personally, I don't think this thread should be allowed to continue. No need for hatred between members.
"I think that we can have an interesting and thoughtful discussion of the issues."
The only issues seem to be those that you have created.
Being a right wing Christian, I am offended by one of your comments. I have had intelligent discussions with friends that are Atheist, Mormons, Hindus, etc. But first there has to be a mutual respect for both religions. Not a revulsion or hatred.
I don't think that anyone here is trying to force their beliefs on you. And I'm definitely not, whether you think I am or not. I am simply answering your questions.
Again, I personally think that this thread should be closed before it gets out of hand... if it hasn't already.
How many Christians have you heard of recently blowing up buildings?
I don't know a single Christian that thinks non-Christians are Athiests. The term was originally used by the Romans (or Greeks maybe) to refer to someone that didn't believe in Roman Gods/Goddesses. However, the term means someone without religion and that is the way I have always heard it interpretated and used.
"Why must Christians view people of other religions as having the WRONG religion, or being misguided, or lost, or whatever?"
Atheism is not a religion. That is why it is atheism. You admit in this sentence that you are singling out Christians, when there are many religions that do the same. We are Christians because we think we are right. If we didn't think that Jesus is our Savior, we wouldn't be Christians.
Personally, I don't think this thread should be allowed to continue. No need for hatred between members.
"I think that we can have an interesting and thoughtful discussion of the issues."
The only issues seem to be those that you have created.
Being a right wing Christian, I am offended by one of your comments. I have had intelligent discussions with friends that are Atheist, Mormons, Hindus, etc. But first there has to be a mutual respect for both religions. Not a revulsion or hatred.
I don't think that anyone here is trying to force their beliefs on you. And I'm definitely not, whether you think I am or not. I am simply answering your questions.
Again, I personally think that this thread should be closed before it gets out of hand... if it hasn't already.
Katarn07 said:Maybe because that's such a long sentence I'm not getting it. lol
Are you saying that Roman Catholics say you need to do good things to be saved and Protestants say faith alone is enough? That's what I'm interpreting out of that sentence. And I'm not sure how the Calvin/predestination thing is fitting into this at the end.
Apologies for any lack of clarity, but yes, that's what I mean. The notion of salvation through faith alone, along with the scriptural focus he urged, was perhaps the primary motivating factor for Martin Luther in posting the 95 Theses and starting the Reformation. Indulgences were a practice that had to be stamped out, no question, and the doctrine of salvation by faith alone (sola fide) was a coherent means of doing so. Calvin and his followers took it further with predestination, which lead to the argument that any good works that were done were mere signs of the innate goodness and membership in the elect that the individual doing the works possessed. Catholics, on the other hand, hold that salvation comes through both faith and works. It's more demanding, and demands aren't the sort of things we like in the modern age, but so it is.
WillKill4Food
New member
Yes, as a Protestant, I can agree with Attila. We believe that faith, strong faith, in Jesus is what saves us. We don't believe in Pergatory, because we believe that Jesus sacrificed for our sins on the cross. That doesn't mean that we sin all we want, but we believe that any good deeds are just that: good deeds. We hold firm that we are human and cannot save ourselves, no matter how good we are. That is why we try to convert people, but most Christians only attempt conversion if the person is willing. I have never met a Christian that tried to force his faith on others. The only people I know that have tried to force their faith are Atheists, and I say that because it's true, not so that it may offend.Attila the Professor said:
monkey
Guest
WillKill4Food said:I'm sorry, but I don't think it is very tolerant when you accuse Christianity as being worthless and the cause of strife.
How many Christians have you heard of recently blowing up buildings?
I don't know a single Christian that thinks non-Christians are Athiests. The term was originally used by the Romans (or Greeks maybe) to refer to someone that didn't believe in Roman Gods/Goddesses. However, the term means someone without religion and that is the way I have always heard it interpretated and used.
"Why must Christians view people of other religions as having the WRONG religion, or being misguided, or lost, or whatever?"
Atheism is not a religion. That is why it is atheism. You admit in this sentence that you are singling out Christians, when there are many religions that do the same. We are Christians because we think we are right. If we didn't think that Jesus is our Savior, we wouldn't be Christians.
Personally, I don't think this thread should be allowed to continue. No need for hatred between members.
"I think that we can have an interesting and thoughtful discussion of the issues."
The only issues seem to be those that you have created.
Being a right wing Christian, I am offended by one of your comments. I have had intelligent discussions with friends that are Atheist, Mormons, Hindus, etc. But first there has to be a mutual respect for both religions. Not a revulsion or hatred.
I don't think that anyone here is trying to force their beliefs on you. And I'm definitely not, whether you think I am or not. I am simply answering your questions.
Again, I personally think that this thread should be closed before it gets out of hand... if it hasn't already.
What are you so afraid of Willkill? Why are you afraid to discuss religion? What is going to happen? Are we going to spontaneously combust or something? Honestly, why can't we have a discussion about religion?
It seems to me the reason is that when anyone says anything that is the slightest bit disagreeable with Christianity, the Christians become inflamed.
Can you say Allah cartoons? Maybe you should just calm down and discuss.
Many of the statements in your post above confirm many of the things that I am saying. And I would suggest that you read my statements more closely. For one thing, I never once said that Atheism was a religion. And I'm curious as to what you, as a self proclaimed 'right wing Christian' found offensive in my post. Perhaps because I used the word fanatical right wing Christians? If the shoe fits........
WillKill4Food
New member
This is the very reason that I think this thread should end. Not because I object to discussion of religion, but I disagree with attacking religion. ANY religion.monkey said:
Suggesting that I think we will spontaneously combust is suggesting that I am backward. Why would I be backward? Because I am a Christian. Because I don't believe that man came from sludge?
I am not "inflamed" because you disagree with me. Some of my best friends disagree with me. But when you call Christians troublemakers and insinuate that we are idiots, I get mad.
WillKill4Food
New member
Excuse, me, but I do live in Middle Tennessee. And, if that's the only place that you've esperienced it, considering almost 33% of the world is Christian, and like .00000001% of that is Middle Tennessee, I think that's a small minority makes sense...monkey said:
And I apologize if people here have done that. But I have never and don't expect anyone to harass Atheists. However, I and several of my best friends have been harassed (and even been given zeros on class discussions) by teachers because we wouldn't admit to believing in evolution.
WillKill4Food
New member
Uh, no. I am not one of those people. I wrote that last post while you were writing the one above. Maybe some others around here are, but they don't go to my church or school. Yeah, by the way, I'm in high school.monkey said:
ReggieSnake
New member
Catholics believe that the Chuch has the authority to give indulgences, and that the Pope is infallible when he teaches officially in regard to Faith and Morals. Other than that, the Pope is a person just like anyone else and has the propensity to make mistakes, and to make bad choices. There were evil Popes, yet the church is still infallible. Indulgences given with wrong motives are still indulgences. Allow me to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church:Attila the Professor said:
The indulgence controversy was not a product of the system, but rather an abuse of authority.
monkey
Guest
WillKill4Food said:
Willkill, we're probably next door neighbors. We probably say hello to each other every day.
I apologize if I have offended you in any way.
If I have come out somewhat militantly anti-Christian it is only because I feel a need to discuss how I feel about it. The 'spontaneously combust' statement didn't have anything to do with you being Christian by the way. It just referred to the fact that I don't know why people are so afraid to just TALK about religion, and differences of opinion therein.
I certainly don't think Christians are 'idiots'. I work with them every day (well, actually both of them...Christians, and idiots, but that's another subject).
One important thing though, I am NOT an Atheist. I have a very strong belief system that helps guide me through my life.
Friend, neighbor, we CAN discuss religion. Really, let's keep trying.
WillKill4Food
New member
I'll accept that. Sorry if I seemed militant. But I just hate to hear people criticise my religion, or any other.monkey said:
I was wrong to assume that you are an Atheist, but since you didn't mention anything otherwise, and you seemed to be criticizing, religion, I assumed that you were. Some of my best friends are Hindus, and many others are Athiests. I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable, just as I don't want anyone to make me feel uncomfortable.
I've got to go now. I'll probably reply later.
Canyon
Well-known member
Wow Monkey, you really have started the boulder rolling, my friend, and I mean that most sincerely.
As for me, I am Pagan. Do I hate Christians? Not at all. I just dislike it when Christians try to force their religion down my throat.
One such group here in the UK, (I believe the Church of the Body of Christ or something like that) were handing out leaflets in town and on the back of the leaflet it more or less said you had two choices. You could either join their church and be 'saved' or don't join their church and you would go to hell. Firstly, I do not believe in any religion that puts the fear of God (excuse the pun) into someone. Secondly, how on earth can they make some kind of comment like that? How do they know? Have they died and come back? Okay, I know that is what they believe, but what gives?
Also, people must realise that religion is not something you can sell. I believe you do not find religion, but that it finds you.
As for me, I am Pagan. Do I hate Christians? Not at all. I just dislike it when Christians try to force their religion down my throat.
One such group here in the UK, (I believe the Church of the Body of Christ or something like that) were handing out leaflets in town and on the back of the leaflet it more or less said you had two choices. You could either join their church and be 'saved' or don't join their church and you would go to hell. Firstly, I do not believe in any religion that puts the fear of God (excuse the pun) into someone. Secondly, how on earth can they make some kind of comment like that? How do they know? Have they died and come back? Okay, I know that is what they believe, but what gives?
Also, people must realise that religion is not something you can sell. I believe you do not find religion, but that it finds you.
San Holo
Active member
I don't see anywhere in my post that I got all bent out of shape, or viciously attacked poor little monkey-that was actually pretty tame for some of my debates with him. Monkey is a big boy and can handle his own, so why don't you let the grown-ups talk,kiddo. Come back when you are old enough to buy me a beer.Katarn07 said:
Katarn07
New member
Thanks for the clarification, Attila. My Roman Catholic friends are Catholic in name only and can't answer any of my questions....
If you read the New Testament, you'll basically find out that to be a Christian means a life of persecution. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to let attacks on your beliefs roll off you. I actually think some people get so worked up or ignore talking about it because it'll put their faith in jeopardy or something.
I can see where monkey's coming from. The radical Christians that can't keep their mouths shut and seem to hate the world because its full of sinners (heh, like they're not?) and don't believe in God or whatever gives Christianity a bad connotation. So do the groups like Jehovah's Witness (which I'm not sure if they consider themselves Christians or not, but they aren't) that go around and force their message down people's throats. It's uncalled for. If people are willing to hear what you have to say, go for it. But if not, why do you think you'll be able to change their mind?
WillKill4Food said:
If you read the New Testament, you'll basically find out that to be a Christian means a life of persecution. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to let attacks on your beliefs roll off you. I actually think some people get so worked up or ignore talking about it because it'll put their faith in jeopardy or something.
I can see where monkey's coming from. The radical Christians that can't keep their mouths shut and seem to hate the world because its full of sinners (heh, like they're not?) and don't believe in God or whatever gives Christianity a bad connotation. So do the groups like Jehovah's Witness (which I'm not sure if they consider themselves Christians or not, but they aren't) that go around and force their message down people's throats. It's uncalled for. If people are willing to hear what you have to say, go for it. But if not, why do you think you'll be able to change their mind?
Would you define yourself as agnostic if not atheist then or what? Just curious.monkey said: