How KOTCS could've been made better?

Matt deMille

New member
Wilhelm said:
So then the Crystal Skull chamber is a better ending from the point of view of a film designer. At least that makes KOTCS better than LC!

I do believe the Design of KOTCS was vastly superior to LC, but, even as a Designer, I have to say that Design alone does not a film make. The ending of KOTCS was too rushed. Didn't take enough time inside Akator and Indy didn't really have much to do.

Now, if you could take the drama of LC's ending with the Design of KOTCS' ending, then, wow! THAT is what Lucas and co. should be aiming for with Indy V!

Attila the Professor said:
Is that so wrong, though? I feel we have reason to believe Indy never spent all that much time in his home back in '36. He's not a guy who knows how to settle down.

Gotta agree. Indy spends enough (screen) time as it is at school. I hate it that we see Indy's house at all. Plus, wouldn't the Reds know to find him there? I think it would have been much cooler if Indy and Mutt went to some dusty, deserted corner of the campus to study Oxley's letter. Maybe have artifacts-not-on-display there, like sarcophagi standing over them, watching them, or strange, out-of-place relics that would hint at the alien temple to come.
 

Major Eaton

New member
Matt deMille said:
Now, if you could take the drama of LC's ending with the Design of KOTCS' ending, then, wow! THAT is what Lucas and co. should be aiming for with Indy V!

I like the sound of that too.:D
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Matt deMille said:
Gotta agree. Indy spends enough (screen) time as it is at school. I hate it that we see Indy's house at all. Plus, wouldn't the Reds know to find him there? I think it would have been much cooler if Indy and Mutt went to some dusty, deserted corner of the campus to study Oxley's letter. Maybe have artifacts-not-on-display there, like sarcophagi standing over them, watching them, or strange, out-of-place relics that would hint at the alien temple to come.

Well, here we disagree then. He's an older man in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and I actually think the idea of having action on campus was a rather good one - the film got it right in playing around with him having grown into his role as an academic over the years, especially after the way it was clear he wanted nothing to do with it by the time of Last Crusade. (I actually favored a drunk curator version of Indy, years ago...but that time has probably passed. Unless Indy V gives us a widower.)

The set design of the house is rather interesting too - it's in many respects a larger, more elaborate version of his house from Raiders, at least the rooms we see. He's also a Jones more willing to bring people into his life, and much more forgiving - one suspects he might not have been willing to believe Mac and then attempt to save him if he hadn't reconciled with his father years before.

With that said: the museum storeroom idea is a great one (and obviously fits in with your hobbyhorse). I'd love to see something like that, but now that he's a married Dean, I don't think we'll ever get lonely curator Jones.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Matt deMille said:
I've always thought the Grail Temple looked bad. Really bad. It's like they ran out of ideas -- Let's just have a big cave. Plus, it clearly has glaring stage-lighting from above. Where's the light-source? What's the history of the place? Did the Crusaders find it? Create it themselves? How? When?

Compare the Grail temple with the "throw-away" South American temple in the teaser for Raiders. The idol's temple had grit, detail, scary lighting, and even the cobwebs looked real. The Grail Temple in Crusade just seemed like a bunch of plaster rock on a conveniently smooth floor, and the cobwebbing looked very synthetic. And there's really no detail, nothing interesting. It's almost like a "brown-screen" or "rock-screen". Even when I saw it as a teenager in '89 I thought that. Now as a trained film designer, it's more obvious.

Yeah, I was never dazzled by the Grail temple. It definitely feels pretty fake, it has all the authenticity of those "caves" we saw in every other episode of every modern "Star Trek" show from the 80s/90s.

It's the least compelling location of all the "ancient sites" from the classic films - Hovitos temple, Well of Souls, Temple of Doom, etc.

That said, I am not too bothered by the lack of detail and I think the fact that we DON'T know the temple's origin and purpose make it intriguing.

Did the Knights build it? Did they just find a cool temple and set up shop there? Who built the traps? Who knows? The mysteriousness of it makes it more interesting. But that doesn't mean it doesn't look pretty fake.

Maybe the interior carvings/statuary were done by the Knight himself - you gotta find some way to pass 800 years...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
Yeah, I was never dazzled by the Grail temple. It definitely feels pretty fake, it has all the authenticity of those "caves" we saw in every other episode of every modern "Star Trek" show from the 80s/90s.

It's the least compelling location of all the "ancient sites" from the classic films - Hovitos temple, Well of Souls, Temple of Doom, etc.

That said, I am not too bothered by the lack of detail and I think the fact that we DON'T know the temple's origin and purpose make it intriguing.

Did the Knights build it? Did they just find a cool temple and set up shop there? Who built the traps? Who knows? The mysteriousness of it makes it more interesting. But that doesn't mean it doesn't look pretty fake.

Maybe the interior carvings/statuary were done by the Knight himself - you gotta find some way to pass 800 years...

The whole idea of the Grail temple was depressing. The idea of the knight just waiting there for all those years. It was a relief when typical adventure film mode kicked in and the whole place crumbled.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Attila the Professor said:
. . .the museum storeroom idea is a great one (and obviously fits in with your hobbyhorse).

Not just my hobbyhorse either . . . many peoples', including Lucas. But actually, the reason I think it would have helped the most is the movie needed foreshadowing. In terms of purely cinematic storytelling, there was little to no foreshadowing of the aliens at the end. I think that's one reason why many audience members had such backlash. Sure, they "knew" it was coming due to the trailers and TV spots, but the movie itself didn't set them up for that revelation.

I think if Indy and Mutt were discussing things around a dusty museum storeroom that had some telltale signs of alien relics, it could have been played in the same mysterious vein as in Raiders when Indy opens the book or when talking to the Old Man. In Raiders, Indy was skeptical about the "power of God", but he has come (especially after Last Crusade) to believe. Simply keeping Indy skeptical about all things supernatural makes him look kind of like an idiot. If, by Kingdom, he'd come to accept "God", especially in dealing with the passing of his father and Marcus, he still could have been skeptical about aliens, and then the Raiders-process could have repeated itself -- Indy would get subtle warnings about what's coming, the audience could feel the "Ohhhh, Indy, you just don't know what you're dealing with . . ." to build the tension.

One reason Raiders worked so very, very well was it played upon people's faith. It wasn't just that the Ark was scary. That's not enough. Raiders took what people generally believed or at least understood and we were warned of its coming again and again. The Ark became something to fear, long before it was opened. If KOTCS did that, with ominous foreshadowing of alien revelation, it could have, if done right, similarly played with what the audience "knows" or believes today. I think the museum backroom could have been a good start there. As with Indy showing the picture of the Ark, it's on campus, in his comfort zone, so he can dismiss it (step 1 in foreshadowing -- give the hero reason to ignore it, but the audience doesn't).

Imagine if Mutt, instead of looking at pictures on Indy's mantle, was looking at alien-looking statuettes from Japan or something, little statuettes sitting on a dusty shelf. Indy doesn't look up from Oxley's letter. Mutt casually says something about how weird these statues look. Indy dismisses it with a "Look kid, I know what's out there . . ." kinda remark. Mutt could then turn and rebuttle "Do you?" A little comical, but it could have the same effect as Sallah's great moment of "It is something man was not meant to disturb . . . It is not of this earth . . ."

And, the storeroom could have even given a little better bookending -- when Mac talks about all the treasures for museums.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Matt deMille said:
Not just my hobbyhorse either . . . many peoples', including Lucas. But actually, the reason I think it would have helped the most is the movie needed foreshadowing. In terms of purely cinematic storytelling, there was little to no foreshadowing of the aliens at the end. I think that's one reason why many audience members had such backlash. Sure, they "knew" it was coming due to the trailers and TV spots, but the movie itself didn't set them up for that revelation.

I think if Indy and Mutt were discussing things around a dusty museum storeroom that had some telltale signs of alien relics, it could have been played in the same mysterious vein as in Raiders when Indy opens the book or when talking to the Old Man. In Raiders, Indy was skeptical about the "power of God", but he has come (especially after Last Crusade) to believe. Simply keeping Indy skeptical about all things supernatural makes him look kind of like an idiot. If, by Kingdom, he'd come to accept "God", especially in dealing with the passing of his father and Marcus, he still could have been skeptical about aliens, and then the Raiders-process could have repeated itself -- Indy would get subtle warnings about what's coming, the audience could feel the "Ohhhh, Indy, you just don't know what you're dealing with . . ." to build the tension.

One reason Raiders worked so very, very well was it played upon people's faith. It wasn't just that the Ark was scary. That's not enough. Raiders took what people generally believed or at least understood and we were warned of its coming again and again. The Ark became something to fear, long before it was opened. If KOTCS did that, with ominous foreshadowing of alien revelation, it could have, if done right, played with what the audience "knows" or believes today. I think the museum backroom could have been a good start there. As with Indy showing the picture of the Ark, it's on campus, in his comfort zone, so he can dismiss it (step 1 in foreshadowing -- give the hero reason to ignore it, but the audience doesn't).

And, the storeroom could have even given a little better bookending -- when Mac talks about all the treasures for museums.

To be honest I think it's even more basic than that... It was established early on in Raiders (as you correctly point out), that the Ark is powerful, destructive, "not of this Earth". There is a natural sense of anticipation as to wether the Ark really has those powers or not.... and of course in the finale we find out.

With KOTCS, as Spielberg/Lucas were clearly trying to keep the alien theme as subtle as possible (until the last 10/15 minutes anyway), they never really give themselves the opportunity of exploring the potential threat/menace of aliens (other than the scenes within the Russian jungle camp). The consequence is that we (the audience) are less interested in the ramifications (come the reveal) than we possibly should be. I personally feel that this was largely due to Spielberg/Lucas having to compromise about how much plot should actually revolve around aliens e.g. gun fights a la 'Men From Mars' etc.

So the net result is a really interesting Macguffin, the Crystal Skull, but because of the way it's played, doesn't pay off nearly as much as it should.
 
Darth Vile said:
It was established early on in Raiders (as you correctly point out), that the Ark is powerful, destructive, "not of this Earth". There is a natural sense of anticipation as to wether the Ark really has those powers or not.... and of course in the finale we find out.
I take exception to the idea that anything about the ark is established. It seems to me every comment is qualified with conditional statements and the anticipation builds off of each one.

I never took Marcus as a believer, merely someone imparting information: "the bible talks about"...

...and Indy: "if you believe in that sort of thing"

Marcus later says "no one knows it's secrets" and to me his fear isn't so much of the ark, (majority wise), but what it represents to people, (people who would stop at nothing...).

Sallah's comments always struck me as another step in the direction, "death has always surrounded it."

Of course his scant comments regarding IF it's out there at all and his superstitious opinion based on these "conditional statements" regarding it's origin is more hyperbole and for purposes of the narrative, suspense builders.

I don't think the sense of anticipation is natural, it only feels that way because of the masterful execution of a brilliant script.:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I take exception to the idea that anything about the ark is established. It seems to me every comment is qualified with conditional statements and the anticipation builds off of each one.

I never took Marcus as a believer, merely someone imparting information: "the bible talks about"...

...and Indy: "if you believe in that sort of thing"

Marcus later says "no one knows it's secrets" and to me his fear isn't so much of the ark, (majority wise), but what it represents to people, (people who would stop at nothing...).

Sallah's comments always struck me as another step in the direction, "death has always surrounded it."

Of course his scant comments regarding IF it's out there at all and his superstitious opinion based on these "conditional statements" regarding it's origin is more hyperbole and for purposes of the narrative, suspense builders.

I don't think the sense of anticipation is natural, it only feels that way because of the masterful execution of a brilliant script.:hat:

Yes, yes and double yes.

Raiders was so well crafted from start to finish. Of course, it was Indy's first appearance, and it set the standard for all that followed. Each successive film is trying to replicate the things that made Raiders such a hit. At the same time George was trying to go one better with each entry - and you can only do that a limited number of times before a movie has to overcome staleness by going overboard.
 

Matt deMille

New member
All good points. I want to add emphasis to the storytelling aspect of it all, though. Lucas and co. trying to outdo each previous installment is fine, in theory. As Stan Winston said (of Terminator 2), "A sequel must be true to the original, but must be MORE than the original". I think KOTCS (and LC, for that matter) lose focus and forget that first part at times, of "being true". Being true to your established characters isn't just recreating scenes (LC is very guilty of this), nor redoing things on the surface, but trying to recreate WHY they became great.

I think that, if anything, is the biggest problem with KOTCS. It just doesn't "build" in a proper storytelling sense. It's a Frankenstein script, stitched together from many different pieces of many earlier drafts. Then again, Raiders was just a series of cliffhangers. But Raiders had several good elements holding it together like glue, in particular, everyone's REACTION to the Mcguffin, the Ark. KOTCS needed a build-up of dread as to what they'd actually find. To paraphrase X-Files, don't open the doors of the cosmos unless you're prepared to deal with what is behind them.

KOTCS could have benefited greatly from a greater sense of dread, fear, or at least wonder about the crystal skull itself, and what it would lead to. Indy and co. just seemed to treat it like a trophy or a football. Spalko, at least, talked about what to expect. In the tent, for example, when she speaks about what they may find, I was getting creeped out, and that's all to the good. Should have been more build-up like that.

Or, for instance, the Ring in Lord of the Rings. It's how everyone reacts to it that matters. And you see evidence of what it's done, to people, to places, etc. If we saw more evidence of the crystal skull's effects on people and places throughout the film, and the heroes were savvy enough to connect them, and start to fear where they were going, I think a much greater percentage of the audience would have liked the alien revelation at the end.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Matt deMille said:
All good points. I want to add emphasis to the storytelling aspect of it all, though. Lucas and co. trying to outdo each previous installment is fine, in theory. As Stan Winston said (of Terminator 2), "A sequel must be true to the original, but must be MORE than the original". I think KOTCS (and LC, for that matter) lose focus and forget that first part at times, of "being true". Being true to your established characters isn't just recreating scenes (LC is very guilty of this), nor redoing things on the surface, but trying to recreate WHY they became great.

Apart from Indy the characters in KOTCS lacked the depth or believability to give any real weight to the story. Raiders created a number of fine character relationships, even though in essence the supporting characters were stereotypes.

Matt deMille said:
I think that, if anything, is the biggest problem with KOTCS. It just doesn't "build" in a proper storytelling sense. It's a Frankenstein script, stitched together from many different pieces of many earlier drafts. Then again, Raiders was just a series of cliffhangers. But Raiders had several good elements holding it together like glue, in particular, everyone's REACTION to the Mcguffin, the Ark. KOTCS needed a build-up of dread as to what they'd actually find. To paraphrase X-Files, don't open the doors of the cosmos unless you're prepared to deal with what is behind them.

Raiders flowed from scene to scene, and everything was essential to the storytelling, and the creation of the relationships. It was a complete package, rather than the collection of packages that KOTCS became.

Matt deMille said:
KOTCS could have benefited greatly from a greater sense of dread, fear, or at least wonder about the crystal skull itself, and what it would lead to. Indy and co. just seemed to treat it like a trophy or a football. Spalko, at least, talked about what to expect. In the tent, for example, when she speaks about what they may find, I was getting creeped out, and that's all to the good. Should have been more build-up like that.

Or, for instance, the Ring in Lord of the Rings. It's how everyone reacts to it that matters. And you see evidence of what it's done, to people, to places, etc. If we saw more evidence of the crystal skull's effects on people and places throughout the film, and the heroes were savvy enough to connect them, and start to fear where they were going, I think a much greater percentage of the audience would have liked the alien revelation at the end.

Definitely. The skull in KOTCS was a set-up for a spectacle, rather than the spectacle being a product of the story. The One Ring in Lord of the Rings is a fine example of the power the skull should have commanded over the movie.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Montana Smith said:
Raiders flowed from scene to scene, and everything was essential to the storytelling, and the creation of the relationships. It was a complete package, rather than the collection of packages that KOTCS became.

I like that. The complete package VS a collection of packages. Describes so many movies and, in a way, the difference between good movies and great movies.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
If anything, Indy's encounter with ET's cousin would have him totally discarding any of the religious beliefs he might have had and he never had any to start with. If humans were created in god's image, in whose image were these interdimensional fellas created? (That's a question for the literal fundamentalists amongst us.)

I'm glad no religiosity was used in CS. Though the whole idea of the origins of any and all ETs was not touched on, it might have helped with the intrigue. Or maybe not, who knows? It all comes down to how it's handled for the most part. Coming from the space between spaces doesn't tell us much, except that Ox seem to know something. Was there more to know?

The aliens are alluded to as gods from the perspective of the ancient myths (of Akator). This would have been good to expand on, even as just a short discussion. It would give more balance to Indy's universal perspective on cultures, because as a good archaeologist he doesn't believe any particular religion but instead tries to understand them all objectively.

I don't think the aliens would have been self-appointed gods. The Ughas just saw them that way. Indy sees them as archaeologists, but that's his bias I suppose. Why didn't they want to stay behind and keep guiding humans? They obviously had a good go at it thousands of years ago.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
If anything, Indy's encounter with ET's cousin would have him totally discarding any of the religious beliefs he might have had and he never had any to start with. If humans were created in god's image, in whose image were these interdimensional fellas created? (That's a question for the literal fundamentalists amongst us.)

I'm glad no religiosity was used in CS. Though the whole idea of the origins of any and all ETs was not touched on, it might have helped with the intrigue. Or maybe not, who knows? It all comes down to how it's handled for the most part. Coming from the space between spaces doesn't tell us much, except that Ox seem to know something. Was there more to know?

The aliens are alluded to as gods from the perspective of the ancient myths (of Akator). This would have been good to expand on, even as just a short discussion. It would give more balance to Indy's universal perspective on cultures, because as a good archaeologist he doesn't believe any particular religion but instead tries to understand them all objectively.

I don't think the aliens would have been self-appointed gods. The Ughas just saw them that way. Indy sees them as archaeologists, but that's his bias I suppose. Why didn't they want to stay behind and keep guiding humans? They obviously had a good go at it thousands of years ago.

Sorry, double post entirely unintentional.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Mickiana said:
I don't think the aliens would have been self-appointed gods. The Ughas just saw them that way. Indy sees them as archaeologists, but that's his bias I suppose. Why didn't they want to stay behind and keep guiding humans? They obviously had a good go at it thousands of years ago.

I presume there was some sort of two-way traffic: alien knowledge for human service, like building a treasure house for the artifacts they were acquiring. From the state of the treasure house it didn't look like the IDBs were planning to leave in a hurry, so they had a long-term project in mind.

We know so little about the IDBs and their culture, that their mystery is at once both intriguing and irritating.
 
Mickiana said:
If anything, Indy's encounter with ET's cousin would have him totally discarding any of the religious beliefs he might have had and he never had any to start with. If humans were created in god's image, in whose image were these interdimensional fellas created? (That's a question for the literal fundamentalists amongst us.).
Hey, they had two legs, two arms...ect, NO TAIL! God's created many creatures including angels, ect...come on now! Where's your scientific method!:p

I'll leave it at that concerning Indy's belief(s) since his final on screen appearence is in a church!


Oh one simple idea which would have made the film better: no high profile, big name actors...no familiar faces, Cate Blanchete is fantastic, but I didn't see her "disappear into the role"...
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Oh one simple idea which would have made the film better: no high profile, big name actors...no familiar faces, Cate Blanchete is fantastic, but I didn't see her "disappear into the role"...

Ray Winstone was a big disappointment, too. As was John Hurt. But an actor can only do so much with the script they're given...
 

Matt deMille

New member
Hmmm . . . good points. I always took Indy's last scene being in a church to just be the way marriages were done in the 50s, not that he was a religious man. Although there is a big missed opportunity there: When seeing the aliens, it could have turned Indy's whole world-view on its head (it usually does when folks see them in real-life). Having finally come to terms with God (from LC), now he sees a whole new paradigm. His final scene could have been one more like starting his adventures anew, because he realizes how much more there is to know out there. Instead of a wedding, it could have been the classic Western "suiting-up" type of scene, and then, instead of riding into the sunset, he walks into the dawn . . . of a new era of discovery.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Matt deMille said:
Hmmm . . . good points. I always took Indy's last scene being in a church to just be the way marriages were done in the 50s, not that he was a religious man. Although there is a big missed opportunity there: When seeing the aliens, it could have turned Indy's whole world-view on its head (it usually does when folks see them in real-life). Having finally come to terms with God (from LC), now he sees a whole new paradigm. His final scene could have been one more like starting his adventures anew, because he realizes how much more there is to know out there. Instead of a wedding, it could have been the classic Western "suiting-up" type of scene, and then, instead of riding into the sunset, he walks into the dawn . . . of a new era of discovery.

Maybe he keeps his sanity by living a normal life as a professor and engaging in normal activities, not allowing the realities he's experienced to affect his everyday life or his colleagues. He and his adventuring companions (now including his family) keep the secret, and live a more respectable lie, as in having a church wedding with Stanford's family bible.

It would make things simpler, especially during the McCarthy era that picked on those that lived or spoke differently to the prescribed status quo.
 
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