Is Spielberg too old for Indy?

Raiders90

Well-known member
For years, people worried that Harry would be too old to play Indy; "How could a 60 year old Harrison Ford play Indiana Jones?" It was thought and worried that his performance might be a little too unbelievable as Dr. Jones. But I think even with the myriad of flaws KOTCS has, Harrison's performance isn't one of them. He's still in good shape and still knows how to play our lovable archaeologist; In fact, I'd go so far as to say that he's the best part of the film.

That said...Is Spielberg too old to be the director of a Bond film? Somewhere along the line, I think Spielberg lost his chops as an action film director. He's grown overly sentimental, he plays it too safe. He's also gone too politically correct, too soft--removing the guns out of ET, for example; Having Indy never fire his gun, draw his whip, or purposely kill anyone in KOTCS is another example. We know it's not Lucas who has gone soft on violence and killing--Look at Revenge of the Sith for evidence. Even in Young Indy, Indy kills purposefully when he needs to. Indiana in KOTCS is made too nice, too politically correct; he doesn't curse or kill. He's Indy for kids.

With Spielberg, we started to see some of this in LC; Indy slowly became a "kindler, gentler" character; the action scenes lacked the kinetic energy and roller-coaster ride feel of the originals. The action in LC feels lazy compared to TOD and Raiders, and in KOTCS it just feels formulaic, laid back. There's also been more and more an emphasis on humor, and on Indy as a hero rather than anti-hero. There's no out of the box ingenius scenes--Nothing like the truck chase or airport fight; nothing like the trap room in TOD; nothing like the motorcycle chase in LC. By '89, Steven said he felt "too old" to film Monkey King; I think at this point, he'd feel too old to even film Raiders again.

He's also too reliant on having the same chereographer for every film, the same team on board; Kaminski gives KOTCS a washed out, dull sort of look, whereas the old films almost at times bordered on technicolor beauty. He's too stuck too his beliefs, his style, his comfort zone. He's no longer willing to take risks. He's gone too politically correct--In one of the Making Of documentaries, he said he WOULDN'T use Nazis as the villains, even if he could.

Personally, if Indy 5 is the final go around for this series, I want Indy to go out with a bang. I want a rollercoaster ride of a film; Something between the rollercoaster ride of TOD with the seriousness of Raiders. The film should be intense--not intense as in overly dark, but the action scenes should be intense. We should fear for Indy's life, which we really didn't in KOTCS.

Indy needs to be an anti-hero again, to kill, to be somewhat dark and mysterious. The grave robber rather than the archaeologist. That dark, Man with No Name character of Raiders.

Maybe have a subplot involve Marion being killed by Indy's enemies--That'd make for one pissed off Indy, with nothing to lose anymore. Have the film take risks, and become a little more modern in FEEL. Don't change the genre and go Sci-Fi, but adapt to a more modern action style. The last film needs to take risks and send Indy off with a bang--a real rollercoaster ride--and I don't think Spielberg is up to it. Maybe have the feel of this be something like Indy meets EC Comics--EC Comics being the pulp fiction of the 1950s.

The problem is, without Spielberg, we're stuck with Lucas. I don't want to see a Lucas directed Indy. My ideal Indy 5 is film with a story by Lucas, perhaps a script by Kasdan (if he can still pull off the old magic), starring Harrisn, something intense and perhaps even revisiting the scary element of TOD, with Indy as the anti-hero, directed by a young, energy filled director who knows how to make an Indy film.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Spielberg has always been overly sentimental and saccharin sweet with his movies... so no change there. However, as I've stated on other threads, it's usually the younger artists who like to shake things up and push the boundaries. Spielberg hasn't changed (in relative terms as a movie maker), it's the way action movies are made and the way we consume them that has. As you indirectly touch upon in your post, this started in the originals i.e. in the mid 80's, other directors started to influence popular style... and by the time of TLC, the way Spielberg directed action was already becoming 'old fashioned'. For a good example of this compare and contrast TLC with Die Hard, Tim Burton's Batman, Lethal Weapon, or Aliens (which were very much the big new action blockbuster movies).

This doesn't stop Spielberg being a class director (as he as), and he obviously went on to direct what can be regarded as more substantial (if not as popular/culturaly significant) movies with The Color Purple, Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan etc. etc.

On a side note... it's funny to see so many people remembering Raiders as being some heavy, intense and serious movie with a "dark" leading character. Whilst I'd never want to rip on Raiders (as I love it), it was and still is quite a light-weight, light hearted, silly and fun movie (which many people seem to forget).

So back to the point - Bottom line is Spielberg is never going to direct another Indiana Jones movie that will redefine how action movies are made. If there is another, he'll make it more or less like the others. If you want something that is as significant as Raiders containing the Indy character, I think you'll need to travel back in time to 1981. ;)

Finally - In my opinion, Lucas would never want to direct an Indy movie - so you don't have to worry about that one. :)
 

indy4242

New member
I agree with some of your points, OP, but I don't think Spielberg is to blame for the weaknesses of KOTCS. Yes, Indy and the movie as a whole is more tame: He never fires his gun, never kills anybody (well, except for the cemetery dart dude), etc etc. I think they do need to add a little more TOD-style darkness into a next one, or at least move more towards Raiders (in between TOD and LC) in terms of tone.

but Spielberg isn't the problem. The movie was directed well, the issue with it was the script. The character of Mac and Mutt were still underwritten, and the action lacked the intensity of the first three. As I said in another thread, Indy's entire role in the Jungle Chase is mostly driving. He never even throws a punch after he gets in the driver's seat in the duck. No amount of action direction will help that.

The color scheme of KOTCS is the same as the original trilogy - it's just the times have changed, the image looks cleaner, the effects slicker. As a result, it feels different.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Spielberg is definitely too old. So's Lucas. KOTCS proved just how out of touch they were, and how soft and grandfatherly both the beards have become.

Hand Indy over to Tarantino and Rodriguez and see the old guy go out in style. ;)
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Well put Montana. Hand Indy over to younger talent for Indy 5 and then keep handing Indy over in the form of a reboot. A younger replacement for Harrison (we might as well since we've already decided on younger replacements for the beards - who isn't replaceable?) and set new adventures in the later 30s and during the WW2 and post war. Imagine the possibilities! Of course I don't care what anyone else wants - this would be entirely for my sake, but if you guys enjoy it then all the better.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Its arguable that, at 60, Spielberg is likely to have lost some of the "Hey George! You know what'd be REALLY f****** cool?" element he had at 30, which is very important for making an Indiana Jones film. The imagination and energy of youth, if you want to call it that. I prefer my earlier description.

That said, I don't know the man.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Spielberg is definitely too old. So's Lucas. KOTCS proved just how out of touch they were, and how soft and grandfatherly both the beards have become.

Hand Indy over to Tarantino and Rodriguez and see the old guy go out in style. ;)

Absolutely agree with your first point. But Rodriguez has long since run out of gas creatively and Tarantino, as much as he continues to impress, just feels wrong.
 
Spielberg and KotCS

I think Spielberg is 100% to blame for KotCS. Technically the film was flawless. But SS's refusal to shoot outside the US really hurt the film's tone. The jungles looked too fake in many of the scenes. SS was known to question GL on many elements of the previous films. If it wasn't for him, Harrison Ford would have been playing Indiana Smith, not Indiana Jones. But I think he just caved to Lucas on this one. I don't think he had a lot of input on the script at all. For the most part, the humor is SS's films went well with the story. In this one it seemed forced and much too over the top. Over the top action is part of an Indy movie, but over the top laughs are not.

I know there are a lot of ToD haters, but I think it was the second best movie because SS found the perfect balance of humor to balance the darker tone of the story.

And finally, put some suspense back in Indy movies, please!
 

Indy's brother

New member
Lance Quazar said:
Tarantino, as much as he continues to impress, just feels wrong.

Tarantino would have Indy talking about food for half of the film, and we'd also have to endure some weird scene focusing on Marion's bare feet. No thanks.

Honestly, with George involved (which will be the case as long as there is blood pumping through his veins), Spielberg is the best bet for reigning in the the whimsy of Mr. Lucas. It's not a matter of a new director in Spielberg's place, a new writer/executive producer to replace George Lucas, or even a new actor to replace Ford. It's a matter of what they want to do next, and how they have chosen to take their lumps over the divisive reception of KOTCS. I wonder if any of them would consider another Indy movie if one of them was absent. Aside from being professionals, they are people, after all. The nostalgia we have for Indy is not the same nostalgia that they have. Their nostalgia is in working together. All that said, our best hope is this:

Steven Spielberg: "I think that will depend on if people want more of them... I get asked about this all the time so, certainly, we will keep our ears to the ground and see where we go from here. But I always love to hear about what people think."

(from Moedred's Indy 5 quote collection)


Say what you will about how Spielberg's style has changed as he has evolved as an artist and into an older man....he is not a fool. I feel that he genuinely believed that the KOTCS that he shot and edited was a different movie than the KOTCS that we saw. I would like to think that he is not blind, deaf, or crippled by ego enough to ignore what many have had to say about it, and will adjust his approach accordingly. I'm sure that as obsessed fans we will never run out of things to complain about with Indy 5 if it happens, but I am actually more hopeful for a great film this time around.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Ib, good point about Tarantulino. He wouldn't be appropriate. He's good for what he does, but not for IJ. If they ever allow younger talent to take over future installments then it would have to be appropriate younger talent. Couldn't guess who at the moment though.
 

indy4242

New member
I too agree that a good way to move forward (after one more fitting swan song for Harrison Ford's Indy) would be handing off the franchise to another group of younger creative forces. And maybe they don't use the Indiana Jones character, but work within the same rules. Only problem is, that usually works out crappy (see: the Mummy).

So yeah. Indiana Jones isn't James Bond, but the series is way to iconic (and profitable) to let die. But there's really no good way to continue it.
 
Personally, I don't feel that Spielberg is too old for Indy. There's never going to be another Raiders, and a fifth Indy movie simply is not going to please everyone. If they push it too far in a different direction people will complain that it's not staying true to Indy's roots (like everyone complaining about the sci-fi elements in KOTCS and saying they should return to Biblical artifacts). If they try to stay close to the spirit and formula, for lack of a better word, of the previous films then people will complain that they're not trying hard enough and just cashing in on the name. It's an incredibly difficult line for GL and SS to walk.

That being said, I wouldn't want to see anyone else directing Ford as Indy. If they do a reboot, sure, bring on a new director and take a different approach. But for another blast with Harrison, give me Spielberg in the drivers seat. To say that he can't still do action is just foolish, IMO. It was only 9 years ago that Minority Report was made, and the action in it is breathtaking.

Of course, I don't dislike Skull like many others, although I certainly admit it was flawed in many ways. I just wouldn't bet against Spielberg, especially on an Indy movie. Even if he's lost a little off of his fastball I think he can still blow us away if Lucas can give him something worthwhile to work with.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
re Robisindy, I largely agree with you. With Harry as Indy, Spielberg has to direct. To answer the thread question, no, he isn't too old to direct Indy, he just has to get motivated to do it properly. But the biggest thing is that he has to have a good screenplay to film.
 

IAdventurer01

Well-known member
The main thing I'll grant the argument against Spielberg is his somewhat recent trend of pulling his punches, making things a tad more family friendly. I'm not saying that the original trilogy was particularly dark, but I feel they were significantly less innocent. In Last Crusade, arguably the most light-hearted of the original three, Indy incredulously downs a handful of Nazis with a single bullet, steals a machine gun trained on him and mows down his captors, and smiles despite his father's disapproval at sending a motorcycle (driver included) flying to its destruction. This transitions into Crystal Skull in which probably the most directly lethal think he does is reverse the warrior's dart. (Pretty amazing, but I believe by far the "darkest" thing he does.)

That said, I agree that Spielberg is still the man for the job. His overall directing style is nearly as engrained in the series as the John Williams soundtrack. The only suitable replacement would be someone whose intent is to replicate classic Spielberg.

Also, I agree that if we are hoping for another movie, Ford is a necessity for me, and it is unlikely he would play the role under another director.
 

indy4242

New member
IAdventurer01 said:
The main thing I'll grant the argument against Spielberg is his somewhat recent trend of pulling his punches, making things a tad more family friendly. I'm not saying that the original trilogy was particularly dark, but I feel they were significantly less innocent. In Last Crusade, arguably the most light-hearted of the original three, Indy incredulously downs a handful of Nazis with a single bullet, steals a machine gun trained on him and mows down his captors, and smiles despite his father's disapproval at sending a motorcycle (driver included) flying to its destruction. This transitions into Crystal Skull in which probably the most directly lethal think he does is reverse the warrior's dart. (Pretty amazing, but I believe by far the "darkest" thing he does.)

That said, I agree that Spielberg is still the man for the job. His overall directing style is nearly as engrained in the series as the John Williams soundtrack. The only suitable replacement would be someone whose intent is to replicate classic Spielberg.

Also, I agree that if we are hoping for another movie, Ford is a necessity for me, and it is unlikely he would play the role under another director.

I agree that Spielberg has become more family friendly over the years, and KOTCS kind of reflects a little more political correctness. However, the man can still direct action. Despite my disappointment by the lack of Indy gunplay, some of the action in KOTCS is still pretty awesome (first half of the Jungle Chase, the Ants fight).

And yeah, Indy doesn't kill that many people in it, but that doesn't stop the body count from being damn high: a bunch of Russians get fried by the rocket sled, a bunch of them get knocked off the cliff by that tree, sucked into the spaceship, etc.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
Tarantino would have Indy talking about food for half of the film, and we'd also have to endure some weird scene focusing on Marion's bare feet. No thanks.

Imagine Indy in the Harvey Keitel role in From Dusk Till Dawn (!)

He's due for another showdown with Vlad, and hell, he could even be taking Marion and Mutt on that motorhome holiday, because in Indy V meets Dusk Till Dawn you're not going be sure who's going to bite the dust!

I'm all for shaking things up, because Lucas and Spielberg are looking down a pedestrian highway with Indy.

Indy's brother said:
Honestly, with George involved (which will be the case as long as there is blood pumping through his veins), Spielberg is the best bet for reigning in the the whimsy of Mr. Lucas.

I'm not sure Speilberg is qualified any more for that role. Some of the whimsy in KOTCS was due to him. This is the director who took the guns out of E.T. Just when you thought that E.T. couldn't be any more whimsical.

Indy's brother said:
It's not a matter of a new director in Spielberg's place, a new writer/executive producer to replace George Lucas, or even a new actor to replace Ford. It's a matter of what they want to do next, and how they have chosen to take their lumps over the divisive reception of KOTCS. I wonder if any of them would consider another Indy movie if one of them was absent. Aside from being professionals, they are people, after all. The nostalgia we have for Indy is not the same nostalgia that they have. Their nostalgia is in working together.

Some day somebody will pick up the character and run with him again. Because Indy has the kudos of familiarity and money in his back pocket

That the beards are taking a long time deciding what to do next is a good thing. Better to wait too long (and eventually do nothing), than jump right back in and soil themselves prematurely.

Indy's brother said:
Say what you will about how Spielberg's style has changed as he has evolved as an artist and into an older man....he is not a fool.

He's certainly no fool, even if genius and stupidity sometimes appear to be both sides of a very thin coin.

Indy's brother said:
I feel that he genuinely believed that the KOTCS that he shot and edited was a different movie than the KOTCS that we saw. I would like to think that he is not blind, deaf, or crippled by ego enough to ignore what many have had to say about it, and will adjust his approach accordingly. I'm sure that as obsessed fans we will never run out of things to complain about with Indy 5 if it happens, but I am actually more hopeful for a great film this time around.

I'm not sure that Spielberg thought it would turn out differently, but that KOTCS was the film both he and Lucas wanted to make. That's the big problem that the film presents me with. It was the same with the Star Wars prequels - they also were the films that Lucas wanted to make. I find myself at odds with the visions of the older versions of Spielberg and Lucas. Call me reactionary, but I like the original trilogies of both series much better.
 
Raiders112390 said:
Somewhere along the line, I think Spielberg lost his chops as an action film director.
No. The problem is Lucas. Spielberg still has the hardcore in him, (Munich), but the material has to be better.

Skull is what Phantom Menace would have been if Spielberg and Ford were involved.

By all reports Lucas would not compromise, and the indulgence infected EVERYTHING.

Is he too old? No, but there needs to be balance, compromise and the CG needs to be relegated to cleaning up matte lines, ect. and not producing content.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
No. The problem is Lucas. Spielberg still has the hardcore in him, (Munich), but the material has to be better.

Skull is what Phantom Menace would have been if Spielberg and Ford were involved.

By all reports Lucas would not compromise, and the indulgence infected EVERYTHING.

Is he too old? No, but there needs to be balance, compromise and the CG needs to be relegated to cleaning up matte lines, ect. and not producing content.

Just ask Stoo who thought of the prairie dogs... ;)
 
Montana Smith said:
Just ask Stoo who thought of the prairie dogs... ;)
You see, THAT's a shame. There's NO Gary Kurtz to say: "That's stupid fellas" or "interdimentional beings are as stupid as aliens."

Frank Marshall doesn't rock the boat but you can tell he knows it NEEDS to be rocked.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
You see, THAT's a shame. There's NO Gary Kurtz to say: "That's stupid fellas" or "interdimentional beings are as stupid as aliens."

Frank Marshall doesn't rock the boat but you can tell he knows it NEEDS to be rocked.

Maybe it doesn't matter how hard you rock the boat, because Lucas is just too much ballast.
 
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