Captain America: The First Avenger

YouNeverKnow

New member
Glad so many people are liking this! It deserves it. Attila, I have to warn you that this is the best of the bunch so far. The first Iron Man is great but this has it beat by at least a hand's length if not more.


Of course,

I.
M.
O.
 
Attila the Professor said:
Yeah, I know, I'm the only person around who hasn't seen Iron Man.
If you have any interest in the character, it's as well done as Batman Begins.

Attila the Professor said:
...I also came out of it thinking the lack of patriotism criticism is pretty ridiculous.
I missed this critique...where is that from?
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I missed this critique...where is that from?

The piece mentioned here:

featofstrength said:
Here's a review of Cap that highlights it's overall lack and ridicule of patriotism: http://www.popgunchaos.com/2011/07/25/captain-america-movie-review/#more-2315

Some of the relevant bits:

Even though the acting was top notch, I was a little put off by the lack of overt patriotism in the film. Going into the movie, I wanted to be immersed in patriotism. I wanted Cap to be waving the American flag and quoting the Constitution, but other than the costume, there really wasn?t much in the way of authentic patriotic references.

After Steve Rogers becomes Captain America, instead of joining the armed forces, he is given the choice to either become a lab rat or join the U.S.O. tour. He chooses the latter and puts on a gawdy costume while attractive women dance around him. Here, patriotism is on full display and it is being ridiculed. When he takes his act before the troops, they boo him off the stage and Cap notes that the problem is that his audience isn?t filled with twelve year olds.

If there were any counter-examples of patriotism, then the U.S.O. moments could be forgiven, but there aren?t, and so the film is asserting that patriotism is for kids, but not for serious adults. The serious adults know what war is really like and while there isn?t ever dissension among the soldiers, there is also never a moment where the troops are stating how proud they were to be American, either.

In May, I wrote about why it?s difficult to make Captain America cool and there I noted that Patriotism is sometimes associated with ignorance and this is prevalent in the film Captain America as well. Col. Phillips suggests that Dr. Erskine find a tough and fit soldier for their super-soldier program, but Erskine believes that Steve Rogers is the only man for the job. When asked why he is so confident, Erskine mentions that he ?has faith.? Later in the film, Peggy Carter also mentions that she believes in Captain America because she ?has faith.?

In these two instances, the characters aren?t believing in Steve Rogers because evidence shows that he can overcome adversity. These characters believe in Rogers simply because they do. It?s clear that Rogers won?t back down from a fight, but that doesn?t mean that he will necessarily be enough to save the day in the end.

This ?faith? isn?t a faith in a higher power nor the United States of America being able to overcome adversity ? this faith is squarely in an individual and nothing more. As such, Captain America is no longer a symbol of America itself, but rather one man?s ability to overcome adversity now that he is on steroids.

For further evidence of this, look no further than how Steve Rogers became Captain America in this film. He received his powers as part of the Super-Soldier program, but he doesn?t really become Captain America until he joins the U.S.O. traveling show. The identity of Captain America wasn?t created in the film to be a symbol to terrorize the enemy, but was created as a gimmick to sell war bonds. He is a joke in the U.S.O. and it?s almost an accident that he even battles the Nazis in his Cap uniform in the first place.

So, in essence, the idea of super-heroes in the Marvel movieverse is an accident. Cap?s costume becomes a uniform, but it was initially just part of a stage show. So, the Captain America of the movie isn?t a super-hero, but instead, he is a weapon to be used on the enemy and nothing more.

But if super-heroes are just weapons, then they aren?t people we should look up to. When we take out the symbolism of the super-hero, then we take out everything that makes them wonderful. And considering that I didn?t see the American flag in this movie one time (no, Cap?s costume doesn?t count), I think it?s safe to say that this movie stripped out its symbolism and left us with a walking, talking weapon.

This wasn?t a bad movie, but I prepared myself for a patriotic tour-de-force with the Star-Spangled Banner playing as Captain America carried our country?s flag to the top of Mount Rushmore, but it was lacking.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
The piece mentioned here:



Some of the relevant bits:

But it's not like this alleged "lack of patriotism" was a common theme amongst the true critical community.

Who is this guy, exactly? Some boob with a blog. Who cares? You can find an idiot with just about any opinion on the internet.

This guy's arguments are so feeble that they aren't worth the effort to refute.
 
Attila the Professor said:
The piece mentioned here: Some of the relevant bits:
Ah, I had forgotten it, not thinking much of it in the first place...

Lance Quazar said:
Who is this guy, exactly? Some boob with a blog. Who cares? You can find an idiot with just about any opinion on the internet.

Really, idiots with opinions...on the, internet.:eek:
 

WillKill4Food

New member
Lance Quazar said:
This guy's arguments are so feeble that they aren't worth the effort to refute.
Feeble? It sounded pretty accurate to me, and he does offer examples... I didn't think the film was very strong (the most interesting part--namely, Cap's extensive service in WWII--is reduced to a montage), and as someone put it, it seemed a lot like "a two-hour long commercial for The Avengers."
 

emtiem

Well-known member
I found this pretty soulless and dry, to be honest. Steve is a very humourless and dull character, who is in an interesting predicament as the film opens, but as soon as he gets his muscles there's little interesting about him anymore- he's just a mannequin in a stupid outfit (his other army buddies in his team look much cooler in their leather jackets etc.).
The action sequences are lacking any inspiration at all (big train zip line thing just becomes a quick shoot 'em up in a corridor) and only the bomb bay fight at the end has any suspense to it; and nearly all the stunts are just done with a bit of CGI rather than anything impressive.
Heartless and humourless, it's not even as good as Rocketeer (which I use as a comparison due to the similarity of the subject matter and the director). And oddly, even as a non-American, I was a bit surprised at the lack of flag-waving. Remember that bit in Rocketeer where our hero is caught in a spotlight with the stars and stripes behind him, just before he rockets off to face the Nazi menace and rescue the girl? There's nothing half as patriotic or punch-the-air in Captain America; which is very weird considering the subject matter.

It's not bad; it's just not as good as it could have been. Rocketeer was a decent substitute for Indy; this comes nowhere near.
 
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emtiem

Well-known member
Joe Brody said:
Also disappointing was the lack of epic scope for a WWII film. I didn't feel transported anywhere. Brooklyn felt like a set (why not use a real backdrop like the Eagle Warehouse for some authenticity?).

It's a real city; not a set- just perhaps not the city you were expecting. It's Manchester! :D
 

Montana Smith

Active member
I love these retro Mondo posters!

cacaptaintrace_thumb.jpg


cahydraollyreg_thumb.jpg


cahydratrace_thumb.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
I like this one too, moreso in this color scheme than in the other one:

capsepsblackandwhite_thumb.JPG

I didn't open that one up from the thumbnail because I didn't think it was as impressive. But I can see how effective it is now. There's an art deco vibe going on with the speed lines and the angles of the portrait. It's a very simple yet powerful image.

And I just spotted the helmet wing is a hand giving the 'V' for Victory! That really completes it.
 
How do you think Red Skull got soldiers for Hydra? Do you think he recruited them from the German army or the SS somehow? Do the comics give any explanation for this?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Wedge Antilles said:
How do you think Red Skull got soldiers for Hydra? Do you think he recruited them from the German army or the SS somehow? Do the comics give any explanation for this?

Have a read through the Marvel encyclopedia entry.

Hydra was a Japanese secret society that didn't appear until Strange Tales #135 (published 1965), so it was apparently ret-conned back into Captain America's WWII origin story.

Post-war however:

Strucker slowly and quietly rebuilt Hydra in the years following World War II, this time using its nucleus the best remaining men of the Nazi Schutz-Staffel (S.S.).
 
Montana Smith said:
No, the movies make it up as they go along. ;)

Ok well if the movies are not completely true to the comics and if in the movie Hydra is just the Nazi deep science division, how do you think Red Skull got people to follow him? I'd like to think that some in the German military and elsewhere recognized that with Red Skull's technology he could be more powerful than Hitler's Germany or any other country and joined Hydra out of opportunism. Just a thought, unless someone would like to correct me.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Wedge Antilles said:
Ok well if the movies are not completely true to the comics and if in the movie Hydra is just the Nazi deep science division, how do you think Red Skull got people to follow him? I'd like to think that some in the German military and elsewhere recognized that with Red Skull's technology he could be more powerful than Hitler's Germany or any other country and joined Hydra out of opportunism. Just a thought, unless someone would like to correct me.

There's that. And there's the opportunism of movie makers when political correctness frowns upon presenting Nazis to children. Using Hydra was a means to sidestep the swastika and avoid awkward history, while still presenting a story concerning Germany during WWII.

Either way Hitler's Germany had a massive bureaucracy with offices tasked with covering the same jobs. It kept people on their toes and off Hitler's back, if they were fighting each other through rivalry. It could have been a simple matter of Red Skull taking control of one of the organizations and expanding it for his own ends, while promising them something more than Hitler had.
 

kongisking

Active member
Montana Smith said:
There's that. And there's the opportunism of movie makers when political correctness frowns upon presenting Nazis to children. Using Hydra was a means to sidestep the swastika and avoid awkward history, while still presenting a story concerning Germany during WWII.

Either way Hitler's Germany had a massive bureaucracy with offices tasked with covering the same jobs. It kept people on their toes and off Hitler's back, if they were fighting each other through rivalry. It could have been a simple matter of Red Skull taking control of one of the organizations and expanding it for his own ends, while promising them something more than Hitler had.

I didn't really mind the change to Hydra. They establish in the film that Hydra, with the knowledge of the Cosmic Cube and Schmidt's brain on their side, is actually an even worse threat than Hitler and his "goose-stepping morons." Because, face it, the Nazis were never gonna win World War II. Stalin would have mopped the floor with them eventually. Here's an article that explains this better (along with some other neat factoids):

http://www.cracked.com/article_18389_the-5-most-widely-believed-wwii-facts-that-are-bull****.html

Enjoy, folks.
 
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