Are/were the Batman fans responsible for a lot of the hate?

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Raiders112390 said:
I remember a lot of the Dark Knight fans like truly hating Indiana Jones before KOTCS even came out, and many were skewering it before it came out, and a lot of the DK fanboys and hipster types happened to be the writers on many of the popular opinion influencing sites like CHUD and the others, along with the "Nuke the fridge" stuff on IMDB by a lot of the Dark Knight fanboys.

Do you think they had anything to do with how it's hip to consider KOTCS the "worst film of all time"? They seemed to want to destroy IJ even before KOTCS came out.

First off let me say that while I think "Kingdom" is the weakest of the Jones films, it is in no way the worst film ever made. And with that let me also add that The Dark Knight is in no way a genius film. In fact it doesn't even take the number one spot for best film adaptation of Batman... at least in my opinion.

What I'm getting at is perhaps it was the zeitgeist at the time, which is still the taste now... a more realistic gritty comic book movie, (which I think is trying to be done to death now.) "Kingdom" came out in May if I remember correctly and Nolan's Heath Ledger-a-thon came out in June. About a month. That is ample time to go to a theater and see a film. I think though that "Kingdom" just didn't get the multiple viewings that can boost those numbers. When I dig a movie I'll go see it twice. If I really dig a movie, thrice. I think most folks saw it once and perhaps even enthusiasts like myself only gave it one viewing.

Combine that with the Heath Ledger dying factor and it snowballed. I really believe had Heath lived, the film would have not become the odd phenomenon that it was. I know that sounds morbid. I'm not trying to be cold, but I see that as a BIG factor. I'm sure that I was probably intrigued by this at the time as well.

So put it all together and we have an audience waiting for the "darkness" surrounding what was The Dark Knight, contrasted with the family adventure, prairie dog, jungle swinging Mutt-a-thon that was "Kingdom". Just two completely different types of a movie.

Would "Kingdom" have made more money had The Dark Knight come out the following year. I really don't think so. I don't "not see" a film because I'm expecting another type of film the next month. I think "Kingdom" got more than reasonable box office returns and it's story problems are their own.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Dr. Gonzo said:
In fact it doesn't even take the number one spot for best film adaptation of Batman... at least in my opinion.

No, that goes to Paul Dini & Bruce Timm's work on The Animated Series. They would earn that accolade for not only introducing the world to Harley Quinn, but for re-imagining Mr. Freeze as a serious villain.


Dr. Gonzo said:
...which is still the taste now... a more realistic gritty comic book movie, (which I think is trying to be done to death now.)

If you were reading comics in the late eighties, early nineties then you'll remember that following the success of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, every superhero was suddenly wandering the moors after Heathcliff or wrestling with their teenage melodrama by staring intently into the middle distance. Twenty-six years later and Hollywood is intent on repeating the same scenario.

Stoo said:
That said...Superhero fans have a VERY LOUD VOICE on da intranetses

Like Stoo said, they bear no resemblance to each other outside of the fact that they were released the same year. While I either missed or ignored the furor, the vitriol can be summed up like this: a few outsized voices here on The Raven trumpeted the exceptional success of The Dark Knight by crowing about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's evident failures. Batman needn't exist for the hatred Skull received. No, it did that all on its own lack of merit.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
:(
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mikieson

New member
Im so glad that I dont analize movies,games,ect like so many people do.Making more out of them then what was originally intended.

Ive always liked what I like and if others dont...well...thats their loss..I continue to love KOTCS and the other 3 Indy movies. I continue to really like the new StarWars movies,but they will never surpass the originals..I love most videogames that most dont..and I actually still play older games. I buy 10-20$ pants from walmart, dollar stores now days. I dont care if someones pants cost what my house payment is..good,glad for them..Im just me..or am I Indy? or Rocky? or Lukeskywalker? dang..:hat:
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
mikieson said:
Im so glad that I dont analize movies,games,ect like so many people do.Making more out of them then what was originally intended.

Ive always liked what I like and if others dont...well...thats their loss..I continue to love KOTCS and the other 3 Indy movies. I continue to really like the new StarWars movies,but they will never surpass the originals..I love most videogames that most dont..and I actually still play older games. I buy 10-20$ pants from walmart, dollar stores now days. I dont care if someones pants cost what my house payment is..good,glad for them..Im just me..or am I Indy? or Rocky? or Lukeskywalker? dang..:hat:

That's good for you, mikieson, but don't be quick to judge. Some people like to analyse and that's what most of this forum centres around. In fact, the theme of analysis has several layers in the Indy universe. Indy was an archaeologist, so analysis would have been a large part of his work. Some fans so love the Indy movies they want to analyse them deeply to mine them for more enjoyment. And think of the analysis that goes into making an Indy movie or any movie for that matter. Analysis increases knowledge and understanding.
 

mikieson

New member
Mickiana said:
That's good for you, mikieson, but don't be quick to judge. Some people like to analyse and that's what most of this forum centres around. In fact, the theme of analysis has several layers in the Indy universe. Indy was an archaeologist, so analysis would have been a large part of his work. Some fans so love the Indy movies they want to analyse them deeply to mine them for more enjoyment. And think of the analysis that goes into making an Indy movie or any movie for that matter. Analysis increases knowledge and understanding.

not judging..heck if it weren't for sites like this, I wouldn't know what I know now. Ive learned a lot over the last year or so from forums and research on Indy. For me I know that I over analyze things at times and it drives me nuts and my wife too..she's always like.."you think about things too much"..And she's right. Sometimes I do..BUT I try and keep my mind free when watching movies or playing video games,or listening to music ect..its a time to chill,relax,and enjoy for what they bring.."to me"..not what I can try and decipher and make them to be..
 
Dr. Gonzo said:
And with that let me also add that The Dark Knight is in no way a genius film. In fact it doesn't even take the number one spot for best film adaptation of Batman... at least in my opinion.
Le Saboteur said:
No, that goes to Paul Dini & Bruce Timm's work on The Animated Series. They would earn that accolade for not only introducing the world to Harley Quinn, but for re-imagining Mr. Freeze as a serious villain.

BATMAN:MASK OF THE PHANTASM...the best theatrical Batman release. And a better "begins" than "Batman Begins"

Begins...what a lame title...
 

Violet

Moderator Emeritus
Dr. Gonzo said:
First off let me say that while I think "Kingdom" is the weakest of the Jones films, it is in no way the worst film ever made. And with that let me also add that The Dark Knight is in no way a genius film. In fact it doesn't even take the number one spot for best film adaptation of Batman... at least in my opinion.

What I'm getting at is perhaps it was the zeitgeist at the time, which is still the taste now... a more realistic gritty comic book movie, (which I think is trying to be done to death now.) "Kingdom" came out in May if I remember correctly and Nolan's Heath Ledger-a-thon came out in June. About a month. That is ample time to go to a theater and see a film. I think though that "Kingdom" just didn't get the multiple viewings that can boost those numbers. When I dig a movie I'll go see it twice. If I really dig a movie, thrice. I think most folks saw it once and perhaps even enthusiasts like myself only gave it one viewing.

Combine that with the Heath Ledger dying factor and it snowballed. I really believe had Heath lived, the film would have not become the odd phenomenon that it was. I know that sounds morbid. I'm not trying to be cold, but I see that as a BIG factor. I'm sure that I was probably intrigued by this at the time as well.

So put it all together and we have an audience waiting for the "darkness" surrounding what was The Dark Knight, contrasted with the family adventure, prairie dog, jungle swinging Mutt-a-thon that was "Kingdom". Just two completely different types of a movie.

Would "Kingdom" have made more money had The Dark Knight come out the following year. I really don't think so. I don't "not see" a film because I'm expecting another type of film the next month. I think "Kingdom" got more than reasonable box office returns and it's story problems are their own.

Totally agree. It's just what "geek" pop culture was wanting at the time. What was extremely unusual (at least in my part of the world) was friends at the time, who had no geek interest or any interest in Batman prior, was somehow drawn to Dark Knight- I'd say that tragic death in terms of BO certainly paid off. And still have zero interest in the Bat, but are obsessed with that one film.

And for th record, as a long time Batfan myself- Batman The Animated Series is hard to top and in terms of cinematic (Mask of the Phantasm was never released in Australian cinemas- it was straight to video, but still best origin story IMO) is Batman (1989). I even prefer Batman: Brave and the Bold over Batman Begins.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
However, there is a bit of duality between his Henry Jones, Jr. persona and his adventurer persona. He takes pride in being an IMMINENT ARCHAEOLOGIST and as we've seen in ToD and KOTCS, he doesn't at all appreciate being branded a "grave robber". On campus and in professional life, he's a mild mannered, glasses wearing Professor who gets embarassed when a female student expresses an attraction to him. In the field, he's a rugged, unshaven, two fisted, cursing womanizer. It isn't quite as clear as Batman or Superman, but I would say there is a bit of difference between "Indy" and "Dr. Henry Jones, Jr."
"IMMINENT"?:confused: You must mean, EMINENT, as Chatter Lal calls him. Was Indy "rugged & unshaven" during his adventures in Shanghai & Venice? Would a mild mannered professor climb out his office window? Did he not begin womanizing Willie while dressed as the nerdy professor? As for his reaction to the student's flirting, that seems due to bewilderment towards HOW she flirted, rather than him being embarassed. (If you want to analyze that aspect further, let's take it over to this thread: Eye (Love You) Lid girl in Raiders)

Obviously, there is a bit of a difference/duality between the professor and the adventurer but it's NOT an ALTERNATE IDENTITY. No matter what he wears, Dr. Jones is Dr. Jones, a man who doesn't disguise himself as a mysterious, crime-fighting vigilante.
Raiders112390 said:
He technically doesn't wear "normal clothes". While the leather jacket, khakis, shirt and whip aren't the same as a cape and whatnot, they're also not an ensemble that was common to the average 1930s American (Willie even comments on this, sarcastically asking if Indy is supposed to be a lion tamer).
No. no & no. "Technically", his clothes ARE normal. A whip isn't an article of clothing and hats, jackets, shirts, pants & boots are regular items that people wear/wore everyday. His clothes aren't skin-tight, custom-made duds and are nothing out of the ordinary for the poor, average, working class man of 1930s America during the Great Depression. (Indy looks like a truck driver from a Teamsters union!)

Plus, the 'lion tamer' comment was largely due to the whip. Notice that she says it right when Indy walks by holding the coiled whip directly in front of her face. When Willie describes her life in Shanghai (while sitting in the puddle) it's obvious that her social circle is high-class and she meets Indy while he is dressed in a dashing tuxedo. As everyone knows, first impressions mean a lot. Willie's 'lion tamer' remark reflects much more about HER snobby character than it does about Indy's 'adventure' attire being abnormal.

Anyway, Raiders112390, you're contradicting yourself AGAIN!:D In another thread, you wrote:
"Indy manages to fit in quite well with both the Depression era '30s and the Eisenhower '50s. He doesn't seem all that out of place, and the central elements of his 'look'--The leather jacket, fedora, slacks--are at the very least common enough not to be considered strange."
:gun:
Raiders112390 said:
For whatever reason, Indy chooses to wear a VERY specific outfit when he goes out into the field or on an adventure, much like a superhero wears his/her costume when they are doing their thing.
No. Indy prefers to wear a particular outfit in the field because it suits the purpose: Durable dress that can withstand scrapes & tumbles. It isn't worn as a costumed disguise in order to hide his identity.
Raiders112390 said:
Outside of the secret lair, he is in some ways like Zorro. Diego de La Vega, like Dr. Henry Jones, is the man you--at first glance--would least expect to be a dashing hero; You wouldn't expect the foppish de La Vega to be a suave and cunning swordsman; likewise, you wouldn't expect the tweed and bow tie wearing, neat and orderly professor to be a mercenary for hire archaeologist. Both don't conceal their voice. Both have 'help'--Indy had Marcus to make his adventures look like legitimate expeditions; Zorro has Bernardo.
Zorro IS NOT a superhero!:rolleyes: But since you're using him as a comparison, it must be pointed out that:

- Unlike Dr. Jones, Zorro hides his identity with a mask!
- Unlike Dr. Jones, Zorro uses a completely different name!
- Unlike Dr. Jones, Zorro DOES CHANGE HIS VOICE (and his accent) in the '30s serials!:whip:
- Your Marcus = Bernardo comparison is so ridiculous that it's not even worth debating.:rolleyes:
Raiders112390 said:
Also, not all superheroes wear logos on their chest.
I never said that "all" superheroes wear logos on their chests. I simply said that Indy "DOESN'T HAVE A LOGO ON HIS CHEST". (An empty rebuttal on your part.)

The bottom line is: "Crystal Skull" and "The Dark Knight" were both released in 2008 and any other similarity is just plain wank. (Pre-internet 1989, I personally never heard anyone compare "Last Crusade" to Tim Burton's "Batman" movie..and that's probably because superhero/Batman lovers weren't part of my circle back then.:p)
 

kongisking

Active member
Stoo said:
Obviously, there is a bit of a difference/duality between the professor and the adventurer but it's NOT an ALTERNATE IDENTITY. No matter what he wears, Dr. Jones is Dr. Jones, a man who doesn't disguise himself as a mysterious, crime-fighting vigilante.

Um, I think that was what I meant to say. I never stated that Indiana Jones is a split-personality like Gollum or a completely different identity like Batman. I just meant that Indy definitely has a 'respectable' face and a 'field work' atittude seperate from each other.

And leave it to Smiffy to give us a LOL-guaranteed GIF...
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
Creepy stalker.
Raiders112390, I debunked your side of the debate with SOLID points. Are lame insults really your last resort?:confused: "You lost today, kid, but that doesn't mean you have to be sore about it.":rolleyes:
kongisking said:
Um, I think that was what I meant to say. I never stated that Indiana Jones is a split-personality like Gollum or a completely different identity like Batman. I just meant that Indy definitely has a 'respectable' face and a 'field work' atittude seperate from each other.
Noted and logged, Kong, buddy.:cool: However, you did agree with Raiders112390 even though he was wrong about several things.:p

---
Can you imagine if Indy speaks in a different voice to people who know him, just like D'uh Dark Knight does?

Indy: Nazi Face is 2 days ahead of us. We have to move fast.
Marion: What are you doing?
Indy: Getting us out of here.
Marion: No. I mean your stupid voice! You sound like an idiot.
Indy: Be specific, Marion. We don't have a lot of time.
Marion: Your voice, Jones! Why are you talking like that?
Indy: That's my Indiana voice. Part of my disguise.
Marion: What? I know who you are...HENRY!
Indy: When I'm dressed in these clothes, I talk this way. Accept it, Marion. That's how it is. Forget it and let's go.
Marion: Whatever you say, schizo!:eek:
 
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Henry W Jones

New member
How would Batman have any bearing on whether people would like or hate KOTCS? They are two totally different things. I don't go to a movie and then decide to hate all the other films that came out at the same time and I liked one better than the other or hate a film because others do. I have my own opinions and if others don't like something I do..... F*Ck EM' I say. Only sheep judge a film on others opinions. And being a sheep is a BAHHHD thing. That like me saying hated TinTin because Mission Impossible 4 came out around the same time. One has nothing to do with the other besides they are both movies and came out in December of 2011.
 
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Yeah. To answer the thread's title question: No, most of the hate came from people who loved the Indiana Jones films then went to watch KoCS and had their excitement and joy stubbed and ground out like one of Harrison Ford's doobies.

Dark Knight, on the other hand, did exactly what it said on the tin, and then some.
 

mikieson

New member
replican't said:
Yeah. To answer the thread's title question: No, most of the hate came from people who loved the Indiana Jones films then went to watch KoCS and had their excitement and joy stubbed and ground out like one of Harrison Ford's doobies.

Dark Knight, on the other hand, did exactly what it said on the tin, and then some.

Well the good news is,I hate batman.Never have liked him or his fairy sidekick. SO that gives me more reason to love KOTCS,which to me, was a great movie and more people actually liked it then not...
 

Henry W Jones

New member
I like Batman. No where near as much as Indy but I thought the DK was a good film and even though KOTCS is the weakest Indy entry I still find it highly entertaining as well.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
I like Indy. No where near as much as Batman but I thought KOTCS was a bad film and even though TDK is the strongest Batman entry I still find the others entertaining as well. ;)
 
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