Indiana Jones and the Disney Connection

Stoo

Well-known member
Requirements

-Pre-1989, the opening year of the Epic Stunt Spectacular.
-Preferably live-action films (to help your case).
-Preferably blood because "gore" is highly subjective.
-Titles will do but screen caps would be a bonus.:)

Pale, I KNEW that you'd be attracted to this thread like a fly on sh_t!:D
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
It'll be child's play.

This, is just a teaser: considering the 'rules' above...

514326_1281598809810_full.jpg


Blood and gore! :dead: :eek:
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Here's hoping you have some aces up your sleeve because that is an antiseptic and lame example.(n)

If this is your type of proof, then stating titles will simply NOT do if you wish to sway my opinion. Evidence is key.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
How about a shocking murder, with shredded paper standing in for blood and gore?
Sorry, please try again.:rolleyes: (By the way, I'm feeling a bit like Ancient-Alien-lover MattdeMille over here. No one really agreeing with me (except for maybe 1 or 2 people)...and I know the TRUTH about the problems with the Indy-Disney reality!:p)
matzilla2010 said:
I know I'm probably in a VERY small minority on this, but in response to what was (I think) the original question about Indy not belonging with something so family-friendly as Disney... I was brought up on both at the same time.

I was born after all three Indy films had been released, and only three years before Temple of the Forbidden Eye opened at Disneyland. In fact, my first visit to Disneyland was when that particular ride had just opened (I was too small to go on it). But I'd say I had been seeing animated Disney films since I was 2 and probably saw Raiders for the first time when I was 3 or 4. Obviously way too young to be seeing guys shot in the head and run over by trucks, etc. but it happened anyway.:p
Thanks for chiming in, Matzilla. Seeing as you were never really conscious of the world before the Indy-Disney connection, you may never be able to understand my aversion to it. (But, as stated before, I'd love to go on that ride!)
kongisking said:
High five back, although the rest of my post clearly states that I've gotten over Disney having an Indy ride. Now, as for them owning Marvel, that will take centuries to get over...:sick:
Re. Marvel: So you can sort of see my point, right, Kong? Yes? No? Junior Jones made some similar remarks so I'll try and address those, as well.
Le Saboteur said:
Of course it was. April equals the beginning of the high season in not only Disneyland, but France. Go there in January or February when its full of French families and young French servicemen willing to brave the cold. Based on the number of times I was offered to swap ca$h for their "discount" coupons, it seems like DLRP marketing offers substantial discounts to locals during this time period.
I figured that might be the case which is why I stipulated the month. Not trying to lean the observation towards my side of the argument.:) You've written a lot, Sab. Much too much to comment on for the moment, except for the immediate clarification of this below:
Le Saboteur said:
Didn't those last movies air on ABC Family? Guess who owns ABC/ABC Family? Oh, snap! Indy is in the Disney family. In all seriousness though, Disney didn't create the series, but they did allot it air time.
No. When the last 4 Young Indy shows aired (1994-96), Disney did not own The Family Channel. They bought it in 2001.:gun:
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
Here's hoping you have some aces up your sleeve because that is an antiseptic and lame example...

Antiseptic or not, the elements are there. ;) I didn't know that I was being graded on the affect of it's impact. It's funny too, when speaking of the elements of Blood and Gore! :dead: :eek: as one could easily bring up Hitchcock and his treatment of both aspects of film and how they relate to the mind (as opposed to the eye).

A very good sociological abstract concerning the implications of understanding death and how they relate to a child's mind can be found HERE.

Just a tad from it, an edited highlight for ease of viewing:

...The purpose of this content analysis was to examine how death is depicted in Disney films. This study is limited in scope, but it serves as a good starting point for the work of others in the area of animated film and children’s understanding of death. We are not making conclusive statements about the effects of media on actual children; however, we are suggesting possibilities worth further examination.

Our conclusions, based on the content analysis of 10 Disney films containing 23 death scenes, indicate that Disney’s portrayal of death may be both good and bad; yet they can serve as effective learning tools for children. Some portrayals of death in Disney films send ambiguous messages about death and may be confusing to many young children. As stated earlier, some young children do not have the cognitive ability or experience to understand death fully {edited}. Furthermore, many animated Disney films contain moral implications. The results from this content {edited} analysis indicate that the antagonists (“bad guys”) deserve to die.

These aspects of death in the film may serve as discussion points for parents to talk about their own family’s beliefs and morality....

Alas I know there are many more examples* to support this particular position, especially as we move into the realm of the occult**, an oft overlooked aspect of Indiana Jones. On that subject alone, Disney makes Lucas look...well, positively puritanical.

All of the films below, with the exception of WFRR were flown/shown under the Disney Banner. Roger Rabbit of course was Touchstone, and there are many films there with the obligatory blood and gore, though more and more after 1989 as per the purview of this challenge.

The Rescuers (1977) - Gratuitous Sex
rescuers-nudity.jpg


The Watcher in the Woods (1980) - Gore of a Monster
watcher_monster.jpg


Dragonslayer (1981) - Naked and Bloody Body
5509709219_20d88e3a71.jpg


Tron (1982) - A Head being chopped open
tron_sark.jpg


^^ My personal favorite from this particular list ^^

Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988) - Being Boiled to Death, while still Alive

rabbitshoe1.jpg


I know, not quite Toht, or Forrestal…but certainly beats the pants off the Cairo Swordsman, or simply falling from a bridge.

But if it’s gratuitous blood you want, try The Story of Menstruation by Dave Smith from 1946. It’s an animated education film produced by …yep Disney.

_______________________________________-
*Pinocchio; Bambi; Song of the South; Victory Through Air Power; The Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad; The Great Locomotive Chase; The Sword and the Rose (Directed by 'Annakin); Johnny Tremain; White Wilderness (where Disney's film crew slaughted lemmings to propogate the suicide myth); The Fighting Prince of Donegal; Child of Glass; and the most tragic death film of all: Old Yeller

_______________________________________-
**Bedknobs and Broomsticks; The Devil and Max Devlin; Something Wicked This Way Comes...just to focus on the overt ones...


EDIT~~~~~

Stoo, I must say, I know of the nostalgia you are getting at. It was found in the 'wonder' of the the show The Wonderful World of Disney. I do think that you're right as I indicated in post #47...I just did this...for ghits and siggles...It's the Lucas Magic vs. the Disney(Man) Magic
 
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Stoo

Well-known member
Pale Horse said:
Antiseptic or not, the elements are there. ;) I didn't know that I was being graded on the affect of it's impact. It's funny too, when speaking of the elements of Blood and Gore! :dead: :eek: as one could easily bring up Hitchcock and his treatment of both aspects of film and how they relate to the mind (as opposed to the eye).
While you're correct in mentioning Hitchcock's treatment of shock & horror, the "Sleeping Beauty" image you posted is neither gory nor bloody. Not only that, but it is a cartoon rendering of a mythical beast's death. I should have specified that I'm looking for HUMAN blood in a live-action Disney film. A scene equal to (or worse than) the most violent ones in "Raiders" or "Doom". It's a fruitless search...;)

The essay you quoted is interesting but I'll stick to the topic at hand for now...
Pale Horse said:
Dragonslayer (1981) - Naked and Bloody Body
As stated, you posted these images mainly for kicks but this example is the only worthy one (but might not really qualify). It's been a long time since I've seen "Dragonslayer". Is this woman actually shown being killed violently or does one just see her dead body? Showing a body is one thing...Graphically showing someone getting killed, that's something else.;)

"The Rescuers". Suggested sex with cartoon mice doesn't cut the mustard. (I like the film, though.)
"The Watcher in the Woods". Gory? Scary monster but nothing more. (As I said, gore is highly subjective.)
"Tron". Stylized gore. No blood.
"Roger Rabbit". Please. (I was hoping you'd have an ace up your sleeve.)
Pale Horse said:
I know, not quite Toht, or Forrestal…but certainly beats the pants off the Cairo Swordsman, or simply falling from a bridge.
The death of the Cairo Swordsman is indeed bloodless but I never mentioned his demise (nor the falling Thugs) in my list of un-Disney-like scenes.
Pale Horse said:
But if it’s gratuitous blood you want, try The Story of Menstruation by Dave Smith from 1946. It’s an animated education film produced by …yep Disney.
Egads.:eek: I'm curious to see it but that is not going to show blood produced by a violent act (and I can tell you're not really being serious about this suggestion). All the other examples you mentioned, from "Pinocchio" right on down to "Devil and Max Devlin", can be challenged as nought (the ones I've seen anyway). Love "Bedknobs & Broomsticks", by the way.
Pale Horse said:
Stoo, I must say, I know of the nostalgia you are getting at. It was found in the 'wonder' of the the show The Wonderful World of Disney. I do think that you're right as I indicated in post #47...I just did this...for ghits and siggles...It's the Lucas Magic vs. the Disney(Man) Magic
Woo-hoo! At least, it's good to know that you agree with me, Mr. Horse!:D
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
All this talk about Disney's violence vs Indiana Jones' violence, does it really matter unless you're a nitpicking soccer mom?

The rides and shows themselves are generally fine for kids(but then so are the Indy movies save for MAYBE Doom).
 

The Drifter

New member
Stoo said:
The Rescuers". Suggested sex with cartoon mice doesn't cut the mustard

Look in the background in one of the windows in the picture posted.
But, I am inclined to agree with you, Stoo. I can't find not one piece of evidence that shows any blood or gore in a live-action Disney flick during that time. But, I do remember blood on Travis' leg when he got mauled (was it by a bear, or raccoon? It's been many years) in Old Yeller.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Look no further than this board.
Truer words were never spoken.:(
Forbidden Eye said:
All this talk about Disney's violence vs Indiana Jones' violence, does it really matter unless you're a nitpicking soccer mom?)

The rides and shows themselves are generally fine for kids(but then so are the Indy movies save for MAYBE Doom).
Mr. Forbidden Eye, the content of violence (or non-violence) within the rides themselves is of no concern, which is something you seem to be confused about. Your Disney ride experience turned you on to Indiana Jones. You wrote "Disney's violence" when it really is about "Disney's LACK of violence". If you can't understand what I'm getting at from all that I've said in this thread, then there's really not much more to say...apart from shooting down all your rebuttal's from post #8. Please, spare me from this. Read your post below and ask yourself: Who really is the 'soccer mom'?;)
Forbidden Eye said:
*a wicked queen who orders a henchman to rip a child's heart out :dead:
*an old hag who poisons a girl:dead:
*kidnapping children and turning them into donkeys an use them at the salt mines :dead:
*hints an satanism :dead:
*WWII propoganda such as this:dead:
*killing innocent deer :dead:
*dogs getting rabies and having to kill them :dead:
*blackface and sterotypes :eek:
*constant drinking :eek:
*constant smoking :eek:
*having villains tricking the dumb heros :(
"Villains tricking the dumb heroes"? Goodness, gracious! How dare they?:eek: Just thinking about such a scenario is so outrageous, it would make someone's head EXPLODE!
The Drifter said:
Look in the background in one of the windows in the picture posted.
But, I am inclined to agree with you, Stoo. I can't find not one piece of evidence that shows any blood or gore in a live-action Disney flick during that time. But, I do remember blood on Travis' leg when he got mauled (was it by a bear, or raccoon? It's been many years) in Old Yeller.
You're right, Drifter! There is, indeed, a nudie picture but I didn't see it today until you pointed it out...nor did I catch it in back in '77. But it's a background, inside joke from the animators and, therefore, non-qualifiable. No Indy film has nudity in it. (Still cool to know about. Thank for pointing it out!:cool:)

Glad to know that you agree about the non-existence of "Raiders"-style violence in pre-'89 Disney films.(y)
 

AnnieJones

New member
Stoo said:
Indiana Jones and Disney. Why?:confused:
Too bad they didn't have an Indiana Jones Theme Park.
Only Indiana Jones and nothing else but Indiana Jones.The only somewhat "non Indiana Jones" thing they should have is having real life archaeology attractions or anything to do with archaeology.I would love to go to that place.Anyone else want to go besides just me?
Hey,with all the Indiana Jones attractions they have at ALL the Disney parks,Jones may as well have his own park.Right?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
-Pre-1989, the opening year of the Epic Stunt Spectacular.
-Preferably live-action films (to help your case).
-Preferably blood because "gore" is highly subjective.
-Titles will do but screen caps would be a bonus.:)

Pre-1989 Disney associated themselves with a series of movies that showed burned bodies, bloody limb removal, various murders, sundry cutting off of hands, annihilation of whole planets, slain teddy bears, and women enslaved and forced into skimpy attire.

I give you Star Tours!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tours
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Stoo said:
Mr. Forbidden Eye, the content of violence (or non-violence) within the rides themselves is of no concern, which is something you seem to be confused about. Your Disney ride experience turned you on to Indiana Jones. You wrote "Disney's violence" when it really is about "Disney's LACK of violence". If you can't understand what I'm getting at from all that I've said in this thread, then there's really not much more to say...apart from shooting down all your rebuttal's from post #8. Please, spare me from this. Read your post below and ask yourself: Who really is the 'soccer mom'?;)

Okay, so overall Indiana Jones is more violent then any of Disney's pre-1989 stuff, so what? You're the one who seems concerned about kids getting exposed to the heads exploding. Do you have kids that you're concerned for? Are you worried about the fate of your future kids when they see Raiders of the Lost Ark of Temple of Doom? I would think any Indiana Jones fan would be thrilled when they see the movies getting represented in another form or medium.

Also what did you think of that link I posted of the WWII propaganda Disney made? Stuff like this short? Just curious. Disney may not be as graphically violent, but a lot their earliest stuff could be considered disturbing on different levels.
 
Disney was always silly/educational/childlike fun. No one could beat Disney at this so competitors upped the ante. "Childrens Fare" became more adult...all of a sudden you couldn't "make money" if a movie was rated G. Sprinkle in some poop and swear words, maybe some violence and PG will get you over the hump of advertising...get those teens with their lax spending habits in to increase the bottom line.

For better of worse Disney threw it's hat in with the Don King mentality and changed for money instead of sticking to their "guns" (;) ) and producing for children.

What was the last "G" rated Disney film?

What made the subsequent "PG" Disney films suggest that Parental Guidence was necessary?

Indiana Jones?

Rocket Surgeon said:
I guess we have to go through it again. Is Indiana Jones a good role model? Are these lessons you want to teach your kids? Is this a tool in the shed? What are the themes in the film?

There's the issue of Indiana Jones meaning the films or simply the character. Unless you've done an impression of Michael Kahn, or you're a content Nazi yourself, the films and any LFL source of info is pertinent. For now I'll keep to the film.

Let's start with Raiders.

Daddy, what's a Nazi?

"Daddy? What are they doing?" "Well sweetheart, that girl is trying to win money by taking turns drinking alcohol with that fat man to learn who is the first to lose control of their bodily functions. Uh oh, number 14 is making her go night night! No, wait! She can do it!"

Daddy Daddy! That man's forehead just spit blood! Shoot them both? Why is blood coming out of that man's mouth? Look at the man doing tricks with that sword! Just like the circus Daddy! Look at Indy...oh, are they playing a game too daddy?

Daddy, why did Indy shoot the man driving the truck in the head? Why didn't he shoot the tires? He only whipped that bad man in the beginning who was trying to shoot him!

Oh no! That nice girl blew up, is he trying to outdrink the monkey for the monkey's money?

What are United States Marines Daddy?
What's a bad date?
Daddy why is that man watching the nice girl take her clothes off?
Daddy, is she trying to win, what did you call that man? A Frog? Is she trying to win that Frog's money Daddy? Why is he a frog Daddy?
What's a chapperone?
Daddy, what's a Bastard?
Daddy he bit that man! Why is he hiding his face? Should I hide mine too?

Why doesn't she want to please the Frog daddy? What is compensation?

Wow daddy the Ark is pretty! ...and Shiny! What's inside of it? It sounds like our cat when she purrs. Daddy why are they screaming? Did the ark grab them with it's claws too?

Daddy does she want to win Indy's money too? Money must be important! Can you make a lot of money drinking? Is that how you and Mommy make money?

Is there another? Nickelodeon should play this! I want to be just like Indy and/or Marion! What's the name of the next one? Indiana Jones goes to Temple? Yea! Just like church on Sunday! Can we watch it, can we? Pleeeease!

:rolleyes:
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I'm tryin' to stoke this fire Stoo, from either side. It's not working. (n)

I'd hate to see this go the way of the dodo.

Stoo said:
Glad to know that you agree about the non-existence of "Raiders"-style violence in pre-'89 Disney films.(y)

Tron and Dragonslayer were my best bets. Unless you want to get into the occult.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
I'm tryin' to stoke this fire Stoo, from either side. It's not working. (n)

I'd hate to see this go the way of the dodo.



Tron and Dragonslayer were my best bets. Unless you want to get into the occult.

I looked through a listing of Disney's 'theatrical' films, looking for likely candidates, and I wondered about Dragonslayer, but couldn't remember enough of the film.

Star Tours was my Trump card (now that Stoo knows how to play Top Trumps!) Star Wars trumps Indiana Jones at Disney by two years, so he was entering broken ground, and not breaking it.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Junior Jones said:
I admit to being a little unsettled at the incongruity of Star Wars and Indiana Jones at Disneyland, but since it's been almost twenty years I've gotten used to it. (It helps that I'm a fan of both).
Likewise, am I also a fan of both but the relationship still remains problematic in my book. At least you've admitted to being "unsettled" at the outset which is something the younger Indy fans (except for perhaps Kong) can't seem to grasp.:(
Junior Jones said:
To be honest, it seemed a little awkward when Disney brought in the Muppets during their stumbled attempt to acquire Jim Henson. Since then they've acquired the Muppets (obviously without Jim Henson) and I'm gradually getting used to it.

Disney's acquisition of Marvel is also taking some getting used to. So far they're still very separate entities due to pre-existing film distribution and theme park licensing agreements, but over time I'm sure that will get more and more awkward before it starts to feel right.
The akwardness you speak of is exactly what I mean in regards to the strangeness of Disney having Indy & Star Wars rides. To me, it will never feel right. Having the rides in the "Hollywood Studios" parks not only makes more sense but it would make the situation easier to swallow. Some of the folks in this debate seem to think that my only objection is the violence aspect when that isn't exactly the case.
Junior Jones said:
That being said however, there is one disparity that's specific to Star Tours and Indiana Jones. Disney hasn't "acquired" LucasFilm (yet).
I honestly hope that never happens but who knows what lies in store after George Lucas passes away. (Knock on wood.) It wouldn't surprise me at all if Disney tried to absorb his empire in 30 years time.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I honestly hope that never happens but who knows what lies in store after George Lucas passes away. (Knock on wood.) It wouldn't surprise me at all if Disney tried to absorb his empire in 30 years time.

By and Large, I don't think that would ever happen...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
I honestly hope that never happens but who knows what lies in store after George Lucas passes away. (Knock on wood.) It wouldn't surprise me at all if Disney tried to absorb his empire in 30 years time.

All aboard for the Skywalker Ranch Ride.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Forbidden Eye said:
Okay, so overall Indiana Jones is more violent then any of Disney's pre-1989 stuff, so what?
It's an important part of the debate, to establish that Indy doesn't exactly gel with the commonly-held notion of Disney being clean, family entertainment aimed particularily at young children.
Forbidden Eye said:
You're the one who seems concerned about kids getting exposed to the heads exploding. Do you have kids that you're concerned for? Are you worried about the fate of your future kids when they see Raiders of the Lost Ark of Temple of Doom? I would think any Indiana Jones fan would be thrilled when they see the movies getting represented in another form or medium.
You misunderstand what I'm getting at. If I was concerned about kids being exposed to exploding heads, etc. then I wouldn't have shown my niece & nephew "Raiders" & "Doom". (Their parents were present at the time and they didn't mind either.) Disney's outlook is the issue here, not mine.

May I ask what year it was when you first went on the Forbidden Eye ride and how old you were at the time?
Forbidden Eye said:
Also what did you think of that link I posted of the WWII propaganda Disney made? Stuff like this short? Just curious. Disney may not be as graphically violent, but a lot their earliest stuff could be considered disturbing on different levels.
I had seen that WW2 featurette before and I think it's very good but it's certainly NOT what The Disney Brand is famous for. As for your latest link: Cartoon chickens and a cartoon wolf. Real people eat chicken every day.

Anway, violence is only one part of my position. The LARGER problem is that Disney has never made/produced/distributed an Indy (or "Star Wars") film.
 
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