Indiana Jones and the Disney Connection

Stoo

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Disney was always silly/educational/childlike fun. No one could beat Disney at this so competitors upped the ante. "Childrens Fare" became more adult...all of a sudden you couldn't "make money" if a movie was rated G. Sprinkle in some poop and swear words, maybe some violence and PG will get you over the hump of advertising...get those teens with their lax spending habits in to increase the bottom line.

For better of worse Disney threw it's hat in with the Don King mentality and changed for money instead of sticking to their "guns" (;) ) and producing for children.
Agreed. It's a cash-grab. (Hey, Rocket, what did you think of my money-bag-holdin'-Indy & Herbie picture?:p)
Pale Horse said:
I'm tryin' to stoke this fire Stoo, from either side. It's not working.(n)

I'd hate to see this go the way of the dodo.
I think your attempts are working, Pale Horse. It's an interestng topic and one I've been meaning to get off my chest for YEARS...in fact, ever since joining The Raven. Back then it was flabbergasting to discover how many members ate up the Disney-Indy toys. (That said, I really LOVE the "Forbidden Eye" poster!)
Pale Horse said:
Tron and Dragonslayer were my best bets. Unless you want to get into the occult.
Witchcraft & sorcery have been prominent in Disney product since the early days so there's not really any point (though I'm sure you'd love to and it would be interesting).;)

How about curse words in pre-'89 Disney? Indy is not proliferated with much swearing but there are some sprinkled here & there. ("Son of a b_tch", "Holy sh_t", "Bullsh_t", etc.) Do you know of any examples where characters swear?
Montana Smiffy said:
Star Tours was my Trump card (now that Stoo knows how to play Top Trumps!) Star Wars trumps Indiana Jones at Disney by two years, so he was entering broken ground, and not breaking it.
A failed trump, Smiff.;) The Star Tours ride is not a Disney FILM. Anyway, as I've been stating all along, "Star Wars" is in the same bag as Indy. It doesn't belong in the Magic Kingdom. (Technically, one could argue that Star Tours wouldn't even belong in a Disney Hollywood Studios park but that's a whole other can of worms.) Re: Top Trumps - Ha ha. Funny!:D
 

mattzilla2010

New member
Hmm... yeah, Star Wars and Indy aren't Disney films, but if those rides weren't at Disneyland I don't think they'd be anywhere else. No other theme park I can think of would spend the money to implement something so elaborate and expensive.

So yes, it's weird for them to be at Disneyland when they aren't Disney properties... but I know most people are really glad they're there. For me, the fact that the rides exist (and are so awesome) outweighs the fact that they don't necessarily "belong" in Disneyland. They really aren't that terribly out of place anyway.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Stoo said:
This may be the case now but can you name any Disney products (made BEFORE Indy entered its realm) that have blood & gore in them?

I will have to watch these again, but Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, & 1994's The Jungle Book have blood in them. "Cannibals" are also electrocuted in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

Off the top of my head, a pirate is shot in the face in Treasure Island. As he runs/falls out of frame, some blood is visible from between his hands. Jim Hawking is stabbed in the arm late in the picture, and has field surgery. Blood may or may not be shown there. I believe the captain is also operated upon.

There are plenty stabbings throughout the movie, and at one point Jim, a child, is forced to kill a pirate. Billy Bones is a raging alcoholic, and Mr. Silver assists in another pirate's death by encouraging him to drink before he falls overboard.

I can't actually recall blood in 20,000 Leagues, but there is a lot of fisticuffs, Cpt. Nemo does murder an entire shipful of people. Plenty of sailors are killed by the giant squid, and then there's the sailors hacking away at it with boarding axes and harpoons.

In The Jungle Book, Kaa eats a principle; Shere Khan chases down and mauls a man; another is drowned. And while I can't remember who, somebody meets an untimely end in quicksand. There are a couple more deaths too! And don't forget the psychological abuse Mowgli suffers at the hands of the British.

Boone, the villain, does kidnap the woman he's going marry, but Mowgli also loves, in order to force him to take him to the treasure.

And while I believe no blood is shown in the Swiss Family Robinson movie, the violence is all fairly realistic. The pirates aren't a parody either.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
A failed trump, Smiff.;) The Star Tours ride is not a Disney FILM. Anyway, as I've been stating all along, "Star Wars" is in the same bag as Indy. It doesn't belong in the Magic Kingdom. (Technically, one could argue that Star Tours wouldn't even belong in a Disney Hollywood Studios park but that's a whole other can of worms.) Re: Top Trumps - Ha ha. Funny!:D

If we're to rescue Indy from the clutches of that Elder Beast, Walt Disney, (and this could be a cliffhanger more dangerous than Doom Town) we can't leave any stone unturned.

It may be too late to save Star Wars, because Lucas has already willingly driven a stake through its heart (repeatedly). Star Tours the film was indeed a Lucasfilm production, and Walt Disney Imagineering created the ride to go with it.

However, it may not be too late to save Indiana Jones. While Lucas and Spielberg grazed his world with the tip of a wooden stake in 2008, there is still time for the unthinkable to be prevented.

KOTCS represents in one view Lucas and Spielberg's own Disneyfication of Indy. They put the writing on the wall, but some of the text is hard to read. They moved in the direction of submitting the character to something corporate and dull. With KOTCS I can see the ghost of Walt Disney reaching out a whispy hand and trying to grasp something that looks to be coming his way...
 
Stoo said:
Agreed. It's a cash-grab. (Hey, Rocket, what did you think of my money-bag-holdin'-Indy & Herbie picture?)
I think it was a matter of survival as well...like Don King, competitors tried to "split" the demographic and in a way tried to make our kids grow up faster.

Which would probably have relegated Disney to pre-teens.

Instead of creating more in-house content and fostering in-house tallent, Disney's competition strategy was to mimic and/or assimilate.

The brand suffered.

Regarding the picture, it's pure Mad/Cracked Magazine!(y)
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Regarding the picture, it's pure Mad/Cracked Magazine!(y)
Indy's head and the money bag were taken from a MAD magazine. The rest is actual artwork for "Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo" but I modified Dean Jones racing suit to match Indy's outfit.:p
Le Saboteur said:
I will have to watch these again, but Treasure Island, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, & 1994's The Jungle Book have blood in them. "Cannibals" are also electrocuted in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
...
I can't actually recall blood in 20,000 Leagues, but there is a lot of fisticuffs, Cpt. Nemo does murder an entire shipful of people. Plenty of sailors are killed by the giant squid, and then there's the sailors hacking away at it with boarding axes and harpoons.

In The Jungle Book, Kaa eats a principle; Shere Khan chases down and mauls a man; another is drowned. And while I can't remember who, somebody meets an untimely end in quicksand. There are a couple more deaths too! And don't forget the psychological abuse Mowgli suffers at the hands of the British.

Boone, the villain, does kidnap the woman he's going marry, but Mowgli also loves, in order to force him to take him to the treasure.
My friend, Le Saboteur. I edited your quote above to save space but will go over your claims on a case-by-case basis (emphasizing the ones I'm familiar with):

1950 - Treasure Island: It's been decades since I've seen this so I'll trust you on the blood. Must see it again soon. Screengrabs, anyone?

1954 - 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea: Don't get me started on how much I love this film! (Designer, Harper Goff, rocks!);)

-Nemo murdering an entire ship full of people: The ship sinks & explodes but no dying/dead bodies are seen anywhere. (Plus, Nemo is the bad guy. Killing shiploads of people is what he does and that's the whole story.)

-Electrocution of the natives: No one gets killed and the heroes are laughing about it. The scene is portrayed as comedic.

-Sailors being killed by the squid: A few sailors get knocked into the water or back below deck. None of them are shown being killed by the squid. The only one who is seen being grabbed into the watery depths is Nemo...and he survives.

-Hacking away at the squid's limbs: There are only 2 shots of limbs being cut in two. One is at the very bottom of the frame and when the tentacle finally seperates, the split is out of frame. The other is underwater (in full frame) but there's no blood.

Anyway, I FOUND BLOOD!:eek: During the fight with the squid, one of the crew gets knocked down below deck. A swipe from the squid's tentacles gave him red, circular welts on his face. Very minor and they're not easy to see...AND there are also 2 shots of Nemo with a bloody patch on the back of his jacket after he takes a bullet! It's a dark, crimson blotch but it's there.:eek:

1960 - Swiss Family Robinson: Like "Treasure Island", I haven't seen this in decades. Needs another review!;)

1994 - Rudyard Kipling's The Jungle Book: Love this film, however, it was released after Indy entered the Disney realm so it`s DISQUALIFIED! Yes, there is a bit of blood in it but, for the most part, they are small brushings due to wounds. No splattering blood as seen in "Raiders". That said, it's definitely a bit more mature than average Disney fare even though this film doesn`t apply to the concerned period. Nice try, though!;)

So far, it looks like the most violent, pre-'89, Disney period was between 1950-1960. After Walt died in late '66, the films became very kiddie-ish which is what I grew up with seeing in the theatres and is why the Indy-Disney connection was truly bewildering.
 

kongisking

Active member
Stoo said:
Re. Marvel: So you can sort of see my point, right, Kong? Yes? No?

Oh, totally. I do agree that Indy being at Disneyland would definitely be off-putting...at first. But I've just gotten used to it, probably because of my own Disney obssession.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Mickinana said:
Indy@Di$ney='Creative Borrowing"
Agreed. Check out my post #28. (By the way, your user name is Mickiana! Mickey + Indiana = Mickiana! What's up with that?:p)
Forbidden Eye said:
I would think any Indiana Jones fan would be thrilled when they see the movies getting represented in another form or medium.
It depends on how they are represented. The 'thrill' is directly related to the 'form'. (See the image below.)

DisneyIndyMickey.jpg
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
You blown my cover, Stoo. Mickey Mouse was an insider the whole time, trying to blow the lid on the Disney/Indy Extortion conspiracy. I was trying to leak the info out to the public via The Raven, but now you've gone and...... wait, I think I can hear movement outside. I've got to go, there's seven little guys armed to the teeth crouching under the azaleas!
 

Stoo

Well-known member
fenris said:
Hi, Fenris.:hat: The 'Unca Scrooge' connection is (relatively) old news and not even 100% verifiable (but I don't doubt it). If it weren't for joining The Raven 6 years ago, I would never have known. (See the thread that Montana linked to.)

However, it still has no bearing on my feelings towards the absurdity of having Indy in Disney's Magic Kingdom. Inspirations/Influences for Indy can be found in many, many places, but PARTICULARILY in "Secret of the Incas", which was a Paramount release. All of the Indy films were distributed by Paramount, a film company who also have their fair share of amusement parks. If anywhere, Indy attractions belong in Paramount parks (regardless of their budget).
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Stoo said:
However, it still has no bearing on my feelings towards the absurdity of having Indy in Disney's Magic Kingdom. Inspirations/Influences for Indy can be found in many, many places, but PARTICULARILY in "Secret of the Incas", which was a Paramount release. All of the Indy films were distributed by Paramount, a film company who also have their fair share of amusement parks. If anywhere, Indy attractions belong in Paramount parks (regardless of their budget).

I still can't quite see this point of view. For one, as you suggest, the Paramount parks are not really theme parks, and won't go in for the sort of treatment that an Indiana Jones attraction deserves. It's a rich world, that of Indiana Jones, and practically begging to be transformed into immersive theme park experiences. While Universal's people have gotten better over time, the Disney designers were (and for the most part, still are) the gold standard.

Two, while there's certainly a compelling argument to be made about the softening of the franchise over time, I think that's a separate discussion. The sort of experience that the Indiana Jones Adventure attractions give (I'm leaving out the stunt show and the coaster in Paris) is one in which the riders are themselves part of the story, <I>not</I> ones where you observe what's happening to the characters in their own narrative, as in most of the Fantasyland-type dark rides, for example. This being the case, there's not a reason for any of the bloodier aspects of the Indiana Jones franchise to appear, while the traps, skeletons, creepy critters, ruined temples, and most of the other trappings of adventure are perfectly suited for such an attraction. It's not, after all, as though Disneyland is just for children, and the contents of the attraction, while, I would argue, fully in keeping with the world of Indiana Jones (various canon issues posed by the letters and crates appearing the queue notwithstanding) and yet not violating the sorts of experiences already present in the theme parks. Indeed, it is the most complete heir to <I>the</I> trademark attractions of Pirates of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion, and the three stand as perhaps the finest achievements of themed ride design.

Perhaps one of the better points of comparison is Tom Sawyer Island, which took an established and rich mythos, an entire fictional world with numerous trademark elements and gave it a physical reality that could be experienced by those visiting the theme park. It was created in 1958, not a time at which, from what I understand, there was any sort of cross-promotion with a Disney version of the Twain stories. The issue of intellectual property and corporate ownership is a red herring, and irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned; the only true trouble in the analogy is the time frame, and that there was nobody to give the rights to the Twain set of characters. But Lucas clearly perceived that the Disney folks were the best people to bring his fictional universes into an immersive physical reality, and his creative stake in both Star Wars and Indiana Jones are a truer form of ownership than Paramount's distribution deal.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
mattzilla2010 said:
(y) Right on, Attila.
Matzilla, as much as I respect you, did you read everything that Attila wrote?:confused:

@Attila: Please, give me some time to formulate an educated response. (As you may know, my head-age is only 8 years old.):p
 

mattzilla2010

New member
Stoo said:
Matzilla, as much as I respect you, did you read everything that Attila wrote?:confused:

Yep. What led you to think I didn't? He said basically what I was trying to say earlier, but I wasn't nearly as clear or eloquent. Attila's explanation was longer and more detailed, and I liked it very much because it sums up my feelings exactly.
 
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