Military Insignia in the Indiana Jones films

P Tom

Member
A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:

c45.jpg


I always felt that it is a glaring omission that Hitler's military cap is missing the cockade and oakleaf wreath insignia which should be on the front of the cap, just as same as the cap Indy is wearing. Either the insignia is missing or wearing the military cap without the insignia is also the norm within the German Army.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
P Tom said:
A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:

Feel free, this is a thread welcoming as much input as possible.

P Tom said:
I always felt that it is a glaring omission that Hitler's military cap is missing the cockade and oakleaf wreath insignia which should be on the front of the cap, just as same as the cap Indy is wearing. Either the insignia is missing or wearing the military cap without the insignia is also the norm within the German Army.

It is yet another glaring historical inaccuracy!

In this forum it was suggested by one member that

Apparently the costume designer was using pics from prior to 1937, when the reichskokarden was added to his visor cap.

Here's a shot of Hitler at the 1936 Berlin Olympics...

article-1205572-06046EB9000005DC-32_468x502.jpg


EDIT:

Forgot to check my original propaganda postcard,

IMG.jpg


which I can now date to 1937 or before.
 
Last edited:
Details, details, details!

Great posts, you do not disappoint!
Montana Smith said:
Somewhere in a Berlin alleyway there's an Artillerie Oberst (Army Artillery Colonel) in his underwear...
250.jpg
]

Ha, and since you cleared a few things up, it seems Indy was fastidious enough to tuck HIS ribbon in...!:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Great posts, you do not disappoint!

I try not to. This is a fun exercise!


Rocket Surgeon said:
Ha, and since you cleared a few things up, it seems Indy was fastidious enough to tuck HIS ribbon in...!:hat:

He even had the forethought to pick up next season's design! ;)
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Ah...tough to make out without it being pointed out.:hat:
Amateur!;):p
Montana Smiffy said:
Somewhere in a Berlin alleyway there's an Artillerie Oberst (Army Artillery Colonel) in his underwear...

Red signifies the Artillery branch of the armed forces.
During the Gobler thread, I found a German artillery soldier in "Raiders". Since that time, I've found another one for a total of (at least) two! (Photos to follow.)
PTom said:
A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:
PTom, I made a call out to you in post #2 for more info about the American uniforms in "Skull". Perhaps you missed it?:confused: Your contributions would be most welcome.:hat:
 

P Tom

Member
P Tom said:
I always felt that it is a glaring omission that Hitler's military cap is missing the cockade and oakleaf wreath insignia which should be on the front of the cap...

Montana Smith said:
It is yet another glaring historical inaccuracy!

...it was suggested... that Apparently the costume designer was using pics from prior to 1937, when the reichskokarden was added to his visor cap.

Here's a shot of Hitler at the 1936 Berlin Olympics...

Fascinating, so Hitler picked up an older hat for the book-burning rally.

Stoo said:
P Tom recently pegged some American uniforms in this thread: American uniforms, weapons and vehicles? so maybe he might want to contribute further?

Hmmm... maybe I'll elaborate more on "Colonel Truman" badges.

015.jpg

The "A" badge on the left shoulders is the insignia of the Fifteenth US Army, which was deactivated in 1946, well before the 1957 setting of KOTCS.

Here's a close-up of the US Fifteenth Army badge:
15thArmy.jpg


The colonel rank is the silver eagle insignia on the right collar:
1477.jpg


And "Colonel Truman" belongs to the Armor Branch of the US Army as indicated by this insignia on the left collar.
OFFARMOR33FNL.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
P Tom said:
Fascinating, so Hitler picked up an older hat for the book-burning rally.

His maid must have mixed up the dry-cleaning again....!

P Tom said:
Hmmm... maybe I'll elaborate more on "Colonel Truman" badges.

Thanks for posting the info, as Stoo wrote this is exactly what this thread is for.

:hat:
 

Stoo

Well-known member
P Tom said:
Hmmm... maybe I'll elaborate more on "Colonel Truman" badges.
Hurrah! Glad that you're contributing, PTom.:hat: The more the merrier! Keep it up...
Kevin said:
I agree there should be no mismatch, I was just trying to determine whether the change had been made to the collar or shoulders. Given the info you posted, I am tending to agree that it was probably the shoulder boards that were changed.
Getting back to the Germans...It's hard to determine exactly what colour "Belzig's"* collar tabs are (His shoulder boards/epaulettes are Panzer Pink).

*This character was NOT named in the film...However, in the early scripts, "Belzig" was the name for "Toht" and this 2nd Lieutenant replaces Toht while going over the cliff in the jeep & dying with Gobler. Kooshmeister has given this guy the name of "Belzig" and I think it's very appropriate.

Insignia_Belzig_01.jpg


Here is my personal Pink Panther:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gUQ7UUeZVWg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
Getting back to the Germans...It's hard to determine exactly what colour "Belzig's"* collar tabs are (His shoulder boards/epaulettes are Panzer Pink).

When I first looked at Belzig's collar tabs today I was seeing a hint of the meadow-green worn by both Dietrich and Gobler. After staring at the photo so long, however, I think I may be going colour-blind! The collar tabs are in dark shadow.

It would make sense if Belzig's matched, then we might link the source of the uniforms.

With the shoulder boards I'm seeing more of an orange-red catching the sunlight, than Panzer pink.

Here are some examples of Artillerie red boards (with the Leutnant - 2nd Lieutenant - strap) showing variations in colour:

H048265full1.jpg


Insignia_Belzig_01.jpg




For another glaring mistake, though not insignia related:

359.jpg


These two soldiers are very poorly equipped. They both have maschinenpistolen slung over their shoulders. Presumably these MP38/40s were adapted from Erma Werke's prototype MP36s. ;)

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/mp36sample.html said:
In January 1938 the German Heereswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) requested a lightweight, compact, rapid firing 9mm weapon for paratroopers and armored crews. The development time to the resulting MP38 in August of that same year was extraordinarily brief. The reason for the seemingly rapid development of the weapon was due in part to the model Erma Werk already had under development. One prototype was the MP36. The MP36 was virtually unknown for many years, due to extreme rarity of surviving examples.

Although the MP36 is similar to the MP38 there are some notable differences. The MP36 is selectfire, it has a fire mode selector located above the trigger housing. The fire selector is remarkably similar to that on the Haenel MP41 model. All of the MP36's components are manufactured from machined steel stock.

The MP36 has wood furniture instead of plastic as used on the MP38/40. The pistol grip panels are also finely checkered wood. The folding metal stock of the MP36 is very similar to that of the later production design, except there are no springs, detents or release buttons. The stock folds and extends under the friction of the snug fitting parts. The butt plate has machined grooves instead of being smooth.

However, the guns aren't the glaring mistake, but rather the ammunition pouches on their belts. The soldiers have pouches designed for the Gewehr K98 rifle.

H012360full1.jpg


They should be wearing something like these:

H071858full1.jpg


H085665full1.jpg
 

P Tom

Member
^ I knew I had heard about the ammo pouch mismatch from somewhere, probably from the customizing Indy figures thread.

The German Soldier figure released by Hasbro had corrected for the ammo pouch!

Indy-199.jpg


Notice that the long MP38/40 magazine would not have fit into the smaller pouch!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
P Tom said:
^ I knew I had heard about the ammo pouch mismatch from somewhere, probably from the customizing Indy figures thread.

The German Soldier figure released by Hasbro had corrected for the ammo pouch!

Notice that the long MP38/40 magazine would not have fit into the smaller pouch![/

They went for the safe option and gave him one set of each!

In theory maschinepistolen were issued to squad leaders (i.e., NCOs), not generally to privates. Yet there are lots of MP38/40s among Dietrich's men.

257.jpg


Now, was the 'tough sergeant' really an NCO?

317.jpg


His shoulder straps are plain. For any rank of Unteroffizeren (NCO) there would be a band of tress running around the edge of the strap:

H086265full1.jpg


He's also got equipment for a rifle, but in the context of ROTLA, they probably all are.

327.jpg
 

Kevin

Member
Montana Smith said:
Now, was the 'tough sergeant' really an NCO?

317.jpg


His shoulder straps are plain. For any rank of Unteroffizeren (NCO) there would be a band of tress running around the edge of the strap:

There should be tress around the collar as well, correct? Or was that feature not incorporated into DAK uniforms? It is certainly missing from his, although in this shot, he does seem to have the correct shoulder straps:

297.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Kevin said:
There should be tress around the collar as well, correct? Or was that feature not incorporated into DAK uniforms? It is certainly missing from his, although in this shot, he does seem to have the correct shoulder straps:

Good spot. I've read that the 1st pattern DAK tropical uniform had tress around the collar.

The tress on the shoulder straps in the crate photo is open at one end, which narrows down his rank.

They're not like these for ranks Unterfeldwebel and upwards:

Unterfeldwebelshoulderboard.jpg


But these, denoting Unteroffizier:

Unteroffiziershoulderboard.jpg


In brief, Non-Commissioned Officer ranks worked like this in the Heer:


UNTEROFFIZIERE MIT PORTEPEE (WITH SWORD) / SENIOR NCOs


Stabsfeldwebel (NCO having served for 12 years) = Staff Sergeant Major

Hauptfeldwebel = Administrative role filled by either a Feldwebel, Oberfeldwebel or Stabsfeldwebel

Oberfeldwebel (after 3-12 months as Feldwebel, Deputy or Actual Platoon Leader) = Sergeant-Major

Feldwebel (after 1 year as Unteroffizier, Deputy or Actual Platoon Leader) = Senior Sergeant


UNTEROFFIZIER OHNE PORTEPEE (WITHOUT SWORD) / JUNIOR NCOs


Unterfeldwebel (after 4 years at Unteroffizier grade, Section Leader/Deputy Platoon Leader) = Sergeant

Unteroffizier/Oberjäger (Section Leader/Deputy Platoon Leader) = Corporal/'Lance-Sergeant'




Since the German Army gave more responsibilty to enlisted men, their private ranks can be equivalent to the NCOs of other armies:


MANNSCHAFTEN / OTHER RANKS

Stabsgefreiter (after 5 or 6 years with little hope of promotion) = Staff Lance-Corporal/Staff Veteran Senior Private

Obergefreiter (after 2 years showing potential, Section 2nd in Command) = Lance-Corporal/Veteran Senior Private

Gefreiter (after 6 months showing potential, Section 2nd in Command) = Senior Private

Oberschütze (after 6 months requiring more training) = Senior Private

Schütze/Grenadier/ Jäger/Kanonier/Pionier/Sanitätssoldat, etc. = Recruit Private



So the tough 'Sergeant' is more of a tough 'Corporal' !
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Captain Blumburtt was WW1 Veteran

Captain Blumburtt was a veteran of the 1st World War. The medals on his chest prove it:

A = 1914-1915 Star
B = 1914-1920 War Service
C = Victory Medal
For any survivors, these 3 medals were commonly awarded together.

D = ???

Now, I *thought* that I had indentified the 4th one (as a General War Service medal, King George V edition) but now I'm not sure what it is. Any help would be greatly appreciated!:whip:

Medals_Blumburtt_01.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
I really like your 'exploded' compositions, Stoo.

I'm figuring that Blumburtt's wearing miniature medals on his mess dress, and that the ribbons are identical to their full-scale counterparts, but is there something odd with the colour of the 1914-20 War Service Medal on his tunic? It looks like a thicker stripe of white, and a thinner stripe of orange. Maybe just a trick of the film.

I think you're right on the fourth medal, as the ribbon colour looks correct, and in photos the General Service Medal is often seen in that position after those three.
 
A & D look to be perfect, ribbons and medalls, though B's Medal looks right the ribbon does not appear to have the broad tan stripe down the middle and the shadow being thrown by the etching in C's medal doesn't appear to match the picture.

The source image is a bit sketchy though. That the others are picked off so well, (and my complete lack of experience in these matters) I'm always questioning.

The layout is perfect...nice work, how shall we say it? Creative?

Get a hold of some quality images and a loose narrative and there's an Indiana Jones book worth buying!:hat:
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Glad you liked the new graphic, guys. There are more to come!:)
Montana Smith said:
...but is there something odd with the colour of the 1914-20 War Service Medal on his tunic? It looks like a thicker stripe of white, and a thinner stripe of orange. Maybe just a trick of the film.
Rocket Surgeon said:
...though B's Medal looks right the ribbon does not appear to have the broad tan stripe down the middle...
The screengrab was bad so below is a better comparison. Montana Smiffy mentioned that the medallions look like miniatures but they seem to be the right size to me...(allowing for some minor distortion in the screenshots). Exhibit B is definitely the 1914-1920 War Service medal:

Medals_Blumburtt_B.jpg

Rocket Surgeon said:
the etching in C's medal
Rocket, just to clarify the terminology, the image on the medal is a 'relief' (bas-relief/basso rilievo) not an 'etching' (gravure/intaglio). Reliefs are raised images whereas etchings are engraved. Thought you might like to know.:)

The shadow on C is puzzling but I'm quite sure it's supposed to be the Victory Medal because it is traditionally worn to the left of A & B. Both of you seem to think that D is a match but I'm still on the fence about that one. A closer analysis of those will follow...
Rocket Surgeon said:
Get a hold of some quality images and a loose narrative and there's an Indiana Jones book worth buying!:hat:
We'll have to wait for the Blu-ray releases for better images, I'm afraid.:(
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
The screengrab was bad so below is a better comparison. Montana Smiffy mentioned that the medallions look like miniatures but they seem to be the right size to me...(allowing for some minor distortion in the screenshots). Exhibit B is definitely the 1914-1920 War Service medal:(

That solves the ribbon issue!

Pretty sure those are the miniature versions, though, which are worn on mess dress.

Compare these pictures (actually of a fraudulent medal wearer) showing the difference in size:

Keaton.JPG


photo2.jpg
 

Kooshmeister

New member
Just plain loving this thread. (y)

Edit: Crud, the post below was meant to go here as part of this post, but I clicked reply instead of editing this...
 
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