Military Insignia in the Indiana Jones films

P Tom

Member
^ Does the position of the eagle insignia on the uniform (on the shoulders, left chest, right chest) have any particular symbolism?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
P Tom said:
^ Does the position of the eagle insignia on the uniform (on the shoulders, left chest, right chest) have any particular symbolism?

Yes, it's one of the noticable things that differentiate the army (Heer) from the SS.

Army uniforms have the eagle over the right breast pocket.

SS uniforms have the eagle on the left arm (but not usually on the black SS-Allgemeine uniform).

The Heer eagle:

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The SS eagle:

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I don't know much about female SS uniforms, and haven't found yet whether the placement is correct.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
I just discovered something that I've been looking a long time for...

In this picture you can just see a red ribbon over Vogel's right breast pocket.

205.jpg


It would be the same as on this uniform:

file.php


It's the ribbon for the Blutorden, or Blood Order medal, and makes Vogel's position even more impressive.

In his book, Himmler?s Black Order: A History of the SS 1923-1945 (1997), Robin Lumsden writes:

Himmler prized the plain and simple Blutorden, or Blood Order, above all his other decorations. This medal, also known as the ?Ehrenzeichen vom 9. November 1923?, recognized NSDAP members who had participated in the Beer Hall putsch or rendered outstanding services to the Nazi party during its formative years. The award became steeped in a deliberately cultivated mystique which guaranteed the wearer special privileges wherever he went.

The award was authorized by Hitler during March 1934. Hitler later amended the awarding regulation to include 30 May 1938 in recognition of special merit in the battle to unify Austria with Germany.

The inscription at the top edge of the reverse of the medal reads: ?UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT? (?And We Have Won After All?)

BO3.jpg


BO4.jpg


Here's a photo of the award being worn with the medal by SS-Oberführer Emil Maurice:

431px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-073-19A_2C_Emil_Maurice



* Maurice was a bodyguard/driver of Hitler from the old days. He is credited with the suggestion for setting up a dedicated bodyguard for Hitler's protection, the organisation that ultimately became the SS.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german_le...iv_Bild_146-1980-073-19A_2C_Emil_Maurice.html
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Here is the image of an original (and therefore more accurate) Blood Order medal from Lumsden's book:

IMG-5.jpg


The hole in the ribbon would be from fastening it to the breast pocket button.


Still with The Last Crusade, the shipment of motorcycles to Castle Brunwald, appear to have originally been destined for the Army, not the SS:

798.jpg


The registration plate is prefixed 'WH', which was the designation for the Wehrmacht. Schutzstaffel vehicles had the 'SS' prefix.

However, the motorcyclists have Heer collar tabs (and Infanterie white shoulder straps) but are wearing SS helmets with the red shield Swastika on the left side.

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sshelmet.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Don't think I've seen the eagle patch in gold/orange...

Something to consider if you're going to shell out £1,495.00 for the garment. The material looks a bit thin as well. Gobler and Dietrich look like they're wearing wool in the desert!

That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket. There can be quite a variation in colour from dull tan to golden yellow.

The tunic looks much more like those worn by the other soldiers in the movie. As here, which also shows the eagle:

1036.jpg


Though in the photos in the link they were implying that it was a 'hero' tunic, and seemed to be using that to bump the price up.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket. There can be quite a variation in colour from dull tan to golden yellow.

The tunic looks much more like those worn by the other soldiers in the movie.
'Tana-Montana Smiffy beat me to the punch again! There a loads of orange/yellow eagles in "Raiders".
Montana Smith said:
However, the motorcyclists have Heer collar tabs (and Infanterie white shoulder straps) but are wearing SS helmets with the red shield Swastika on the left side.
Yeah, I noticed this mix-up/goof, too.:eek: There also seems to be a colour mis-match between the motorcyclists' collar tabs & epaulettes.

(The motorcycle chase was a hastily shot, "last minute" scene so the errors can be easily excused.;))
 
Montana Smith said:
That's the Afrika Korps breast eagle, Rocket.
That's good to know, though I'm curious about it's presence with "green collar tags" as Stoo puts it.

Seems from the shots the Afrika Korps had high "shirt" collars, (excepting the U-Boat pics, unless that's a punt as well...), where the item for sale and Gobler/Dietrich have coat lapels...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
That's good to know, though I'm curious about it's presence with "green collar tags" as Stoo puts it.

The seller explained it away with...

The lapel insignia may have been revised subsequent to filming (it is commonplace for costume insignia to be removed/reused/replaced during the life of a costume within the Costumiers).


Rocket Surgeon said:
Seems from the shots the Afrika Korps had high "shirt" collars, (excepting the U-Boat pics...), where the item for sale and Gobler/Dietrich have coat lapels...

I think it looks similar to the one with the soldiers holding Marion. The tunic for sale is a big size, and it's probably swamping the dummy?
 
Montana Smith said:
The seller explained it away...
I think it's bogus! Are the two insignia never together?

The Gold Eagle/Green Bars?
Montana Smith said:
I think it looks similar to the one with the soldiers holding Marion. The tunic for sale is a big size, and it's probably swamping the dummy?
The material looks thinner, noticeably by the fall/crease of the lapel, (vs the fellow on the left).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I think it's bogus! Are the two insignia never together?

The Gold Eagle/Green Bars?

The green of the collar patch is the backing cloth. The arm of service is shown by the white piping in the centre of the grey cotton bars. Being plain cotton these bars indicate a rank of enlisted man or NCO (Soldat to Feldwebel). The white piping could be for Infantry, Motorcycle units, Machine-Gun battalions, Army Recruiting personnel, General command, Army anti-aircraft units, War College, and other affiliations.
 
Montana Smith said:
The green of the collar patch is the backing cloth. The arm of service is shown by the white piping in the centre of the grey cotton bars. Being plain cotton these bars indicate a rank of enlisted man or NCO (Soldat to Feldwebel). The white piping could be for Infantry, Motorcycle units, Machine-Gun battalions, Army Recruiting personnel, General command, Army anti-aircraft units, War College, and other affiliations.
Is the green significant?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Is the green significant?

I think it relates to the patches worn on the dress uniform. The service uniform generally used a dark bluish green backing.

Since this prop uniform isn't dress uniform it looks odd.
 
Montana Smith said:
I think it relates to the patches worn on the dress uniform. The service uniform generally used a dark bluish green backing.

Since this prop uniform isn't dress uniform it looks odd.
Since the orange border of the eagle vs the black has some meaning, I was wondering if the green did as well...
 
Montana Smith said:
I just discovered something that I've been looking a long time for...

In this picture you can just see a red ribbon over Vogel's right breast pocket.

205.jpg


It would be the same as on this uniform:

file.php


It's the ribbon for the Blutorden, or Blood Order medal, and makes Vogel's position even more impressive.

In his book, Himmler?s Black Order: A History of the SS 1923-1945 (1997), Robin Lumsden writes:



The award was authorized by Hitler during March 1934. Hitler later amended the awarding regulation to include 30 May 1938 in recognition of special merit in the battle to unify Austria with Germany.

The inscription at the top edge of the reverse of the medal reads: ?UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT? (?And We Have Won After All?)

BO3.jpg


BO4.jpg


Here's a photo of the award being worn with the medal by SS-Oberführer Emil Maurice:

431px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-073-19A_2C_Emil_Maurice



* Maurice was a bodyguard/driver of Hitler from the old days. He is credited with the suggestion for setting up a dedicated bodyguard for Hitler's protection, the organisation that ultimately became the SS.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german_le...iv_Bild_146-1980-073-19A_2C_Emil_Maurice.html
Wow I was completely unaware of that. Thanks!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Here's both sides of an original Blutorden:

Blood1Order-707921.jpg


bo3701c-718328.jpg


The inscription "UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT" is perhaps better translated as "And Yet You Have Triumphed".
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Captain Katanga's Communist naval cap...

1046.jpg


IMDB's Raiders goofs page records the following:

Anachronisms: Captain Katanga's hat bears the insignia of the navy of the Yugoslav People's Army, which existed from 1945 until 1991. The emblem with red star is quite visible.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082971/goofs

However, I can't find a picture to confirm this. Searching for YPA naval insignia brought up these images:

yu515b.jpg


yugo-rank-chart-7b.jpg


The wreath on Katanga's cap has three distinct branches on each side, whereas the YPA image shows four.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Bantu Wind Crew Member

Montana Smith said:
Captain Katanga's Communist naval cap...

The wreath on Katanga's cap has three distinct branches on each side, whereas the YPA image shows four.
Nice, Montana. That's a tough one!:eek: Apart from the leaf details, it's almost identical.

Speaking of the Bantu Wind, one of the "pirates" is wearing a French Infantry officer's kepi (1885-1905 pattern) with no unit number.

While the top 'turban' part doesn't appear to be red in the film, it is and I've attempted to juice up the colour in some of these screengrabs to show that it's NOT black. Hopefully, the colour difference is noticeable.

I've always thought it was a lieutenant's kepi but upon closer inspection it MIGHT BE a captain's. The width of the vertical braids look too thick to be a single stripe (for lieutenant) and closer to the width of a double stripe (for captain). In the bottom right pair of photos, when the crew surrenders to the Germans, you can see 3 horizontal braids (captain). Spacing between each stripe varies because of different manufacturers...or the hat becomes crumpled.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that the standard chinstrap for lieutenants was always gold (seen here above the visors)...and the one in "Raiders" isn't. In the top left photos, you can see the gilt, fastening pin...look for the little, yellow dot. In some of the photos, light is reflecting on the brim of the visor but it ain't the chinstrap.

Opinions?:confused:

BantuWind_FrenchKepi.jpg
 

Montana Smith

Active member
There always seems something new to discover in Raiders, as I never noticed this before!

These are cropped pictures from VP's collection. In the first one the two vertical bands are visible, but are close together:

978.jpg


1031.jpg


1053.jpg


The hat appears to be black, and with the chinstrap missing.

I wonder if it's the kepi of a captain of a French fire brigade, similar to this slightly squashed one from the early Third Republic (1870-):

Frenchfirecaptainkepi.jpg
 
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