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Old 08-16-2009, 05:29 PM   #76
Darth Vile
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To quote a great thinker... "The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions".
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:46 PM   #77
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See, THAT is pompousness. Cold dismissal because you can't counter my argument. That's called being a pompous ass.

Now, I never claimed to know more than Spielberg. Neither did Rocket Surgeon. Of course, holding Spielberg on some pedestal and pompously refusing to see anything else is frankly ignorant. The greatest artists in history (of which Spielberg is by no means one of) have all had output that's been at times subpar. And it's our responsibility as interpreters (audience) to critique and analyze the work. To not do so is to stagnate.

That is a little shocking to hear from you, because in that case, the average joe is one that people should put emphasis on. There are a lot of people who bought tickets and enjoyed Transformers 2. Should Spielberg(or anybody for that matter) be concerned if those people don't happen to like their work?

I can see where you were coming from if film critics were in question(most of which actually liked Kingdom), but even then, if one is a true artist, shouldn't he make work that he wants to make as oppose to what others want him to make? After all, you can't literally please everyone.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Forbidden Eye
shouldn't he make work that he wants to make as oppose to what others want him to make?


That is a great question! Spielberg went so far as to say who he's making this film for, and it wasn't for him or for art.

It's funny when you write about things you'd have liked to have seen there's always that contingent that willfully misrepresent and misinterpret what you write and strike out at you as though they have some greater grasp of the subject.

Upon further review it's apparent they do not.

Kind of like expressing what you enjoy in a film and the response is so twisted they can't help but put their own baggage on display.

They invariably come off as extremely egotistical, pompous, and most of all, laughably ignorant.

I just think arguing the opinion of a post is like telling Jeff Gordon how to pick his wives.

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Old 08-16-2009, 06:24 PM   #79
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No, you're right Rocket. Adding a shot by the tracks would've made all the difference in the world. By goodness you should've shot this film.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:27 PM   #80
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No, you're right Rocket. Adding a shot by the tracks would've made all the difference in the world. By goodness you should've shot this film.

You still don't get it Nat King!

It's something I would have liked to see...I DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS what would have made the film better for YOU.

It's something I would have liked to see, I just love how you can't grasp that and continue to argue OPINION!

Shoo fly Shoo!
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:41 PM   #81
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That's fine, but you also gave the impression that the existing scene is inferior and subpar. And I'm letting you know how I feel about that. Plus, given how you've acted and treated me ever since I started posting on these boards, I just plain don't like you.
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:48 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbidden Eye
That is a little shocking to hear from you, because in that case, the average joe is one that people should put emphasis on. There are a lot of people who bought tickets and enjoyed Transformers 2. Should Spielberg(or anybody for that matter) be concerned if those people don't happen to like their work?

I can see where you were coming from if film critics were in question(most of which actually liked Kingdom), but even then, if one is a true artist, shouldn't he make work that he wants to make as oppose to what others want him to make? After all, you can't literally please everyone.


You're misconstruing my words.

Film is an art, that's established. Any art is the expression of one's own identity, their experiences, their desires, etc. Experiences and desires are not born in a vacuum-- they're the product of interaction. And film does not exist in a vacuum-- once it's unleashed upon the world, it's the plaything of the masses. And I don't mean masses in the sense that you used the term. I mean film, as is any art, is meant to be analyzed, digested, related to and perhaps even expanded upon. That's natural. Average Joe has nothing to do with it, it's the individual that is important. It's cyclical. Art is the product of interaction and experience and thus it fuels interaction and experience. See?
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Old 08-16-2009, 06:52 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole
That's fine, but you also gave the impression that the existing scene is inferior and subpar.
I called it not exciting! I stand by that.

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Originally Posted by Cole
And I'm letting you know how I feel about that.
Yes you are quite often.

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Originally Posted by Cole
Plus, given how you've acted and treated me ever since I started posting on these boards, I just plain don't like you.
Well I'll also stand by my posts. If you care to review them, I think I encouraged you to explain yourself many times and fought fire with fire.

that you don't like me is apparent, but it's pretty cool that you finally came out and said it. Funny thing, I like you. you're already on my buddy list!
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:50 PM   #84
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When I watched it a few days ago ,I thought my friends were going to think the "dogs" were stupid, but they laughed for the whole 3 sec. they were on screen. Heck, now I'm a fan.
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Old 08-16-2009, 08:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Cole
That's fine, but you also gave the impression that the existing scene is inferior and subpar. And I'm letting you know how I feel about that. Plus, given how you've acted and treated me ever since I started posting on these boards, I just plain don't like you.

"I just plain don't like you."? That's an awfully childish thing to say.. And why don't you like him?? Just because he thinks after he watches a movie? You don't have to be a director to be able to think of something that would look and feel really cool on screen...I think of all kinds of things I would have liked to see in certain movies.. Rocket's ones of the coolest guys here, and I like hearing his ideas

And what is wrong with "arguing the technicalities of filmmaking"? Did you know some of the best directors never even went to film school? Of course a director can't please everyone, and he has every right to make a film how he wants to see it.. but there's nothing wrong with discussing ways that certain scenes could have looked even better... I like Steven Spielberg, one of my favorite directors.. But that's not gonna stop me from discussing how I might have done a scene from one of his movies differently.
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Old 08-16-2009, 11:58 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by ronicle
"I just plain don't like you."? That's an awfully childish thing to say.. And why don't you like him?? Just because he thinks after he watches a movie? You don't have to be a director to be able to think of something that would look and feel really cool on screen...I think of all kinds of things I would have liked to see in certain movies.. Rocket's ones of the coolest guys here, and I like hearing his ideas

And what is wrong with "arguing the technicalities of filmmaking"? Did you know some of the best directors never even went to film school? Of course a director can't please everyone, and he has every right to make a film how he wants to see it.. but there's nothing wrong with discussing ways that certain scenes could have looked even better... I like Steven Spielberg, one of my favorite directors.. But that's not gonna stop me from discussing how I might have done a scene from one of his movies differently.
You're kind of barging into something that didn't involve you. He acts like a jerk to me, that's why I don't like him...........pretty clearly I already said this.

If people want to present their ideas in a friendly fashion, I'm all for it.

But it's the tone. When you start ripping apart things scene-by-scene, and acting like you could've done such a better job than the "subpar" work that was done, and then you wanna make a mountain out of a molehill.........ya, that spells huge moron in my book.
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:09 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cole
When you start ripping apart things scene-by-scene, and acting like you could've done such a better job than the "subpar" work that was done, and then you wanna make a mountain out of a molehill.........ya, that spells huge moron in my book.

Yeah, but you have to admit it's pretty hard to take seriously when you write it in crayon...

I think it would be better if you worked on your cursive, comprehension and conceit. Your posts would be Soooo much better.

In all fairness I was nice at first, before you became master of the obvious.
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:35 AM   #88
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I give the same respect I get.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:39 AM   #89
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(crickets)
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:32 PM   #90
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"Nobody ever wins a message board fight."

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Old 08-17-2009, 02:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
That is a great question! Spielberg went so far as to say who he's making this film for, and it wasn't for him or for art.


I wouldn't necessarily rush to believe everything Spielberg says. I mean, he's got better things to do than waste 18 months of his life making a movie, just because he believes he owes something to an anonymous group of people. If he said he'd made it to shut Harrison up, I'd believe that... but for the fans? "C'mon".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronicle


And what is wrong with "arguing the technicalities of filmmaking"? Did you know some of the best directors never even went to film school? Of course a director can't please everyone, and he has every right to make a film how he wants to see it.. but there's nothing wrong with discussing ways that certain scenes could have looked even better... I like Steven Spielberg, one of my favorite directors.. But that's not gonna stop me from discussing how I might have done a scene from one of his movies differently.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with critiquing a movie, music, and fine art etc… in fact (like most here I’m sure), I’d encourage it. But we do live in a world where everyone seems to be an armchair critic/pundit (not aimed at anyone here), and it sometimes becomes a tad boring and predictable when, instead of celebrating something (or just ignoring that which offends), we just sit on our backsides complaining about it. Saying that, KOTCS isn’t, and shouldn’t be immune to such critiques… it’s the newest Indy movie… so it’s fair game I suppose.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:18 PM   #92
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I wouldn't necessarily rush to believe everything Spielberg says. I mean, he's got better things to do than waste 18 months of his life making a movie, just because he believes he owes something to an anonymous group of people. If he said he'd made it to shut Harrison up, I'd believe that... but for the fans? "C'mon".

...and you shouldn't rush to believe it. It seems to me he did it for the money, after all, everything he says about the development of the script points to him not wanting to be there. Especially when he runs down the litany of alien movies.

I wouldn't necessarily rush to believe Spielberg spent 18 months of his life making Crystal Skull...consulting on Skull maybe.

I think you'll see money was the prime mover and peer pressure the second. After his experience with Bernie Madoff I think the odds of an Indy V grow. We'll see how "Harvey" does! Universal is already trying to renegotiate his "consultant" fee for attractions at the park...and have issued press releases pointing to his fees as the reason for ticket prices going up.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:27 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
it sometimes becomes a tad boring and predictable

There's definitely a point at which the criticism becomes as stale and tired as the very thing it's supposed to be railing against.

I certainly agree there's nothing wrong with questioning an artist or critiquing his works. However, the trick is to do so without devaluing your own opinion in the process.
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Old 08-17-2009, 02:36 PM   #94
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"Nobody ever wins a message board fight."

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lol well done.
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:05 PM   #95
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Spielberg's decision to take part in making this film may have been influenced by fans and the now-inconic status of Indiana Jones. Things like adding a snake joke may have been done with the fans in mind.

But at the end of the day, Spielberg is still the one calling the shots, making the decisions. And I think he displayed his artistics talents as a filmmaker. For example Indy's introductions is brilliantly shot.

But to some degree, were movies like Jaws, ET, and Raiders of the Lost Ark not made with commercialism/fans in mind to some degree? Filmmaking is a unique blend of commercialism and art.

Spielberg isn't exactly strapped for cash, I doubt that was a major factor. He's in a position where he can pretty much choose to do what he wants and make millions.
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Old 08-17-2009, 04:42 PM   #96
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Spielberg stopped worrying about money a long time ago. He made the film because Lucas and Ford wanted to do another one.

In other words, pretty much the same reason he made TOD and LC.

Now I do think that, at some level, he was trying to make it for the fans. The problem is that everyone has their own definition of what that means. Most fanboys think it's a title exclusive to them: A fan is someone who takes this stuff very, very seriously. (ie. Why make it if you're not going to use everything you read about in Film 101?)

However, Spielberg obviously doesn't share that same definition. He realizes that the movies have always appealed to a wider demographic- encompassing everyone from kids to grandparents. So if he set out to make a movie for ALL the fans, it's not surprising that it resulted in a family-friendly adventure.
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:18 PM   #97
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Yep. Can't please everyone.
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:29 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I don’t think there is anything wrong with critiquing a movie, music, and fine art etc… in fact (like most here I’m sure), I’d encourage it. But we do live in a world where everyone seems to be an armchair critic/pundit (not aimed at anyone here), and it sometimes becomes a tad boring and predictable when, instead of celebrating something (or just ignoring that which offends), we just sit on our backsides complaining about it. Saying that, KOTCS isn’t, and shouldn’t be immune to such critiques… it’s the newest Indy movie… so it’s fair game I suppose.

I wouldn't say fair game, it could be any movie, I'm just saying in general that there's nothing wrong thinking of ways a movie could have been better. I've even thought to myself of how I would have liked to see certain scenes in Gone with the Wind shot with a different angle. I really liked Rocket's idea, I think it would have made the sled scene a lot cooler.

Even though it didn't come close to Raiders I still love kotcs, but I could also come up with a list of what I would have changed about it I don't like it when kocts is trashed either! But there's definitely a HUGE difference between nitpicking and trashing.. I've heard plenty of kotcs trashing on this board and that's not what I saw saw Rocket doing..
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:02 PM   #99
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I wouldn't say fair game, it could be any movie, I'm just saying in general that there's nothing wrong thinking of ways a movie could have been better. I've even thought to myself of how I would have liked to see certain scenes in Gone with the Wind shot with a different angle. I really liked Rocket's idea, I think it would have made the sled scene a lot cooler.

Even though it didn't come close to Raiders I still love kotcs, but I could also come up with a list of what I would have changed about it I don't like it when kocts is trashed either! But there's definitely a HUGE difference between nitpicking and trashing.. I've heard plenty of kotcs trashing on this board and that's not what I saw saw Rocket doing..

“Fair game”, as in any latest movie of a franchise will monopolize attention (be that good or bad).

Of course there is nothing wrong in “thinking of ways a movie could have been better”, and in broad strokes e.g. “more Marion”, less Mutt” etc., it can be amusing (I have several issues with the movie too)… but at the same time, once one offers an alternative that is a little more than a fancy, one must be willing to take the same critique of the alternative.

For the record… my words were not at all aimed at Rocket (he seems to express quite regularly that he enjoyed/liked the movie). My statement was a generalization re. some who strive to avoid the positives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
...and you shouldn't rush to believe it. It seems to me he did it for the money, after all, everything he says about the development of the script points to him not wanting to be there. Especially when he runs down the litany of alien movies.

As we’ve discussed in other threads… I see no evidence that Spielberg did KOTCS “for the money”. For all I know, he may well have done… but logic seems to lead elsewhere. More than anything, he probably made KOTCS because he wanted to rekindle the experience he had (or thinks he had) with the first three. In that sense, one could posit that it was a very personal/emotional driver.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:11 PM   #100
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Spielberg stopped worrying about money a long time ago. He made the film because Lucas and Ford wanted to do another one.

Really? If you know anyone with that kind of money, you know that's just not true.

Bottom line, he made the movie for MANY reasons...but art and love of Indy at the bottom of a very long list. Seeing the kind of film he wanted does not even factor into it!

Money is top 3, the optimist in me says working with friends again is top 3, releasing a sure thing, (maintaining reputation) was probably top 3 but I don't think that one worked out as expected.
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