So the American Film Institute released a new version of its Top 100 American films list a few days ago, as revision of its original version from 1998. The list was determined by the votes of some 1,500 filmmakers, critics, and historians from an original ballot of 400 films. The Wikipedia article has a good side by side comparision of each list.
So I'm of the opinion that the new list is considerably better than the original, giving a few films that were not properly respected the first time around (most notably The Searchers, but also Vertigo and City Lights) their proper due, as well as adding a number of better films. Some of the displaced films I might have liked to stay (Stagecoach, The Third Man) and some of the newer ones were dubious choices (Titanic), but this was a marked improvement, or so say I. I imagine there will be considerable disagreement though, and as such, here's the thread.
I pretty much agree Attila. However with respect to Raiders of the Lost Ark, 26 years after its release, it still feels like the ultimate adventure film from 1936. For that and other reasons, I think it should be #1
I am a film buff. I enjoy a great many older films, Hitchcock's being my favorites, but quite a few others.
Why is Citizen Kane number one? I thought the acting was great, the cinematography light years ahead of its time, but the film is so dull. In the hands of anyone other than Orson Welles the film would not even be remembered. Just because a film is visually breathtaking doesn't make it a good film. I would say that you have to get some level of enjoyment out of it, and Citizen Kane is one of those that you can watch once and not really have any desire to watch again.
Vertigo is another one of those films that I'm perplexed by. As I mentioned earlier, I am a huge Hitchcock fan. I believe that he is one of the greatest directors of all time, and many of films deserve to be in the top 100 films list, but Vertigo is another one that is not only dull, but incredibly unrealistic. I mean, the plot holes are huge!
My personal favorite is Casablanca, but it seems that it will never be the number one film, especially now that it's dropped down to number 3, replaced by The Godfather, which was quite good.
There are a few others on the list that I don't enjoy, but like Vertigo and Citizen Kane I understand why they are there, I just don't find them as enjoyable.
There are definatley some lame ducks on that list. While undoubtedly classics, a good third of the films on the list are snorefests. I can't see how the Searchers-arguably the best movie of all time- is not even in the top ten-how can it even be on the same list as Platoon and the 6th Sense(I see dumb people) . Like the good Professor says- Where is Stagecoach? What about Rio Bravo, or Red River.....Die Hard? I guess Tootsie is a better movie
I guess the list doesn't even attempt to put them after which is the best movie, but more like the impact its had on American filmmaking, from both filmmakers' and audience's point of view. I.e. How much the film caused gossip at its time and how much it has caused since, how much it's influenced the pieces that have come after it, etcetera.
They definitely don't go by overall popularity - that's what IMDb top 250 is for, I guess. Shawshank Redemption is for example only #74 on the list... (not that I imply it should be higher).
the fact that amadeus went from 51 to nothing, is just disgraceful. imo, it should have gone higher.
they have godfather 2, but no empire strikes back? empire, which is popularly regarded as better than a new hope?
and in all honesty, with all the usual suspects like citizen cane and the graduate (i HATE the graduate) on the list... it just seems like such a critic butt patting fest.
i think somebody on the afi board is a fan of westerns, charlie chaplin (though i think the end of the great dictator is probably the best moment in his career), marlon brando (a greatly influential actor, but a bloody wanker in real life) and a few others.
i was glad to see american graffiti on the list.
imo, star wars and wizard of oz felt like handouts to popular cinema among the critical darlings.
I guess the list doesn't even attempt to put them after which is the best movie, but more like the impact its had on American filmmaking, from both filmmakers' and audience's point of view. I.e. How much the film caused gossip at its time and how much it has caused since, how much it's influenced the pieces that have come after it, etcetera.
I can accept that. I mean, as I mentioned before, Citizen Kane was, from a cinematic standpoint, way ahead of its time. I mean, no one was making movies like that. And Vertigo, although I have my problems with it, is perhaps the most visually beautiful film I've seen, and easily one of Hitchcock's most referenced films (Basic Instinct, Diabolic, Wicker Park, etc.)
It's unclear to me why the critics' opinions shouldn't be considered more strongly than those of the general public, since it's intended as a "best of" list, not a "most popular" list. I checked out the IMDB Top 250 list just now, and even it is a pretty good list, but also clearly including some things that don't belong and, more crucially, excluding films of greater merit than the films of admittedly considerable merit on that list right now. Also, the IMDB list also has a sample bias, so even that can't be claimed to be the popular opinion. The adjusted box-office returns is at least a slightly better barometer of personal taste, but it's Top Ten is Gone With the Wind, Star Wars, The Sound of Music, E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial, The Ten Commandments, Titanic, Jaws, Doctor Zhivago, The Exorcist, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Good films? Mostly...good, anyhow. But many of them definitively big films, in one way or another, and I'm not sure that's what we should be rewarding.
Also, I want to issue a defense of the Western. It is, along with jazz, perhaps the most singularly American art form, and is as close to a mythology as we get, Founders notwithstanding. High Noon, Shane, The Searchers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, and Unforgiven offer wildly different portraits of, frankly, the deficiencies of the American dream, with the problems of lack of civic sentiment, of social conflict, of racism, of technology, of violence, and of myth itself. The archetypes of the form lend it to doing that better than perhaps any other form, since it's so malleable - we have another thread discussing the Jurassic Park precursor West World right now.
The list...is far from an absolute good, but it's better than a lot of others out there.
Also, I want to issue a defense of the Western. It is, along with jazz, perhaps the most singularly American art form, and is as close to a mythology as we get, Founders notwithstanding. High Noon, Shane, The Searchers, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, and Unforgiven offer wildly different portraits of, frankly, the deficiencies of the American dream, with the problems of lack of civic sentiment, of social conflict, of racism, of technology, of violence, and of myth itself. The archetypes of the form lend it to doing that better than perhaps any other form, since it's so malleable - we have another thread discussing the Jurassic Park precursor West World right now.
The list...is far from an absolute good, but it's better than a lot of others out there.
I agree with you on some points about the Western. I am not a big fan of westerns, but I do believe that they are not all bad. High Noon, to me, is the best Western. For the most part, Westerns of the 40's, 50's, and 60's when they died out were very formulaic. It was always a hero, two girls, one of whom was usually a dancer or singer of some kind, and the other a cowgirl type. The dancer/singer almost always died because she was "the bad girl." She usually dressed provocatively and flirted more than the other girl, therefore making her essentially bad, and the Hollywood answer to that type of woman was death. Generally, though, she died saving the hero, giving her some redemption before death. Native Americans were a staple to the genre, and always were portrayed as savages and were killed off with little to no difficulty. Usually Mexicans were in there too, but in smaller roles and as incompetent as could be.
High Noon was different on so many levels. Katy Jurado played not only "the bad girl," but she was also Hispanic. Her character was neither evil nor stupid. In fact, she was a shrewd business woman and silent partner of at least one company in town. She was also the lover of the hero (Gary Cooper), who recently married a quaker (Grace Kelly). Not only is smart, an adulteress, and Hispanic, but she actually LIVES through the movie, something that NEVER happened to any of the characters with her qualities. Everything about this film was so much better than other Westerns. It broke away from the formulaic story telling and broke new ground in terms of roles of women and other cultures. Definitely one of Hollywood's finer films and certainly deserves a higher spot on the list.
Sorry, I know that post was long, but I took a Multicultural Film class last semester, so I'm eager to share my film knowledge with others.
I'm just shocked, shocked, that an actual conversation is breaking out here. Now all we need is Raedeemer's take on the western, and I'll know that all's well.
As I've said elsewhere, I'm glad The Graduate fell. . . . and Annie Hall for that matter. A lot of the trash from the '70's is finally being recognized as such.
After seeing Joe was Shocked, I did the whole double take thing. The new list a lot more round, and yes they did stick some stinkers on it, Lord of the Rings, Titanic. But they added some really important flicks, Do the Right THing, Toy Story, etc.
A good list, but I think they picked the wrong westerns. Sergio's movies, High Plains Drifter, needs to be on the list. Unforgivable is on, but that is kinda wussy. Wild Bunch is not really a western, but the movie rocks.
The Lord of the Rings better than Raiders? That's the worst part of the list.
Some parts were good, but a lot were very lame. Raging Bull being called the 4th greatest movie ever made is laughable. Vertigo is nowhere near as good as Psycho, Rear Window, North by Northwest etc.
I could go on and on...but overall, like all AFI lists, it has it's ups and downs. I MUCH prefer the old list though. It seems as though several choices were made just because they wanted change.
The fact that Hollywood has Fellowship lose best picture back in 2001 then have Return of the King win 11 Oscars back in 2003 then put Fellowship on the list of top 100 but has Return of the King no where to be found shows how much credibility they hold at the moment.
And the fact that American Graffiti is above Raiders of The Lost Ark is laughably pathetic. What..? No Saturday Night Fever? Oh....it's comin.....
The fact that Hollywood has Fellowship lose best picture back in 2001 then have Return of the King win 11 Oscars back in 2003 then put Fellowship on the list of top 100 but has Return of the King no where to be found shows how much credibility they hold at the moment.
And the fact that American Graffiti is above Raiders of The Lost Ark is laughably pathetic. What..? No Saturday Night Fever? Oh....it's comin.....
Excuse me while I mop up the Academy's floor.
The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and the American Film Institute are different institutions. Hollywood isn't exactly a monolith.
There are a whole slew of movies I'm surprised didn't make this list such as: Witness, The Empire Strikes Back, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, A Man for All Seasons, L.A. Confidential, Halloween, The Quiet Man, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Braveheart, Gladiator, A Christmas Story, The Breakfast Club, The Big Lebowski, Fargo, Dirty Harry, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Conversation, The Usual Suspects, and City of God.
I'll never get the acclaim heaped on Raging Bull, over Goodfellas, Mean Streets, or The Departed for that matter. As well as movies like The Sixth Sense, Annie Hall, Midnight Cowboy, American Grafitti, Cabaret, Forrest Gump, and 2001: A Space Odyssey.
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is the best in my opinion of the trilogy, but it is ironic the Academy chose ROTK over it for the Oscar and A.F.I. chose FOTR for their list!
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring is the best in my opinion of the trilogy, but it is ironic the Academy chose ROTK over it for the Oscar and A.F.I. chose FOTR for their list!
I think the 11 Oscars that went to ROTK is regarded as a reward for the entire trilogy's achievement, rather than for just that one film.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckard24
There are a whole slew of movies I'm surprised didn't make this list such as: Witness, The Empire Strikes Back, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, A Man for All Seasons, L.A. Confidential, Halloween, The Quiet Man, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Braveheart, Gladiator, A Christmas Story, The Breakfast Club, The Big Lebowski, Fargo, Dirty Harry, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, The Conversation, The Usual Suspects, and City of God.
Gladiator was a very good action movie, but I really don't think it was all that special. As for Halloween.....really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckard24
I'll never get the acclaim heaped on Raging Bull, over Goodfellas, Mean Streets, or The Departed for that matter. As well as movies like The Sixth Sense, Annie Hall, Midnight Cowboy, American Grafitti, Cabaret, Forrest Gump, and 2001: A Space Odyssey.
Yeah, I hated Mean Streets. I can't begin to explain to you how bored I was watching that film. I really had to struggle to make it to the end. Unbelievably boring.
I loved GoodFellas, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull and Casino though, they were all great films.
Oki, I'd pick Goodfellas over Raging Bull without a moments hesitation. I don't know if I wrote that in a misleading way.
I Know 2001 is a critic fave, and was ahead of it's time. It's just not a favorite of mine at all! I found it extremely long and really dull. I'd take A Clockwork Orange over it any day.
As for ROTK getting the awards for a body of work I agree on that completely. It is the most emotionally driven of the three, so I think that plays a part as well.
Gladiator vs. Spartacus and I'd pick Gladiator. Gladiator vs. Braveheart and I'd take Braveheart. I'm sure a big part of that lies in my Irish/Scottish heritage.
Halloween to me deserves a place on the list if Psycho is there. Yes it borrows from the theme of Hitchcock's classic, but it adds a raw intensity that Psycho never had.
I can't believe Back to the Future wasn't on the list. Another movie that I think should have been on it is Jurassic Park. I mean come on, the special effects are still great today let alone being crazy good back then. Im not saying that makes it a great movie but it also has good acting, storyline, sets, dialogue, and great directing. I think it is the most underrated film ever. I also believe Psycho and Rear Window should have been higher.
. Like the good Professor says- Where is Stagecoach? What about Rio Bravo, or Red River.....Die Hard? I guess Tootsie is a better movie
