Seriously, though, it's fascinating to read how and why people could like a film I largely detested. Certain arguments have caused me to reassess minor aspects of the film. I still don't care for it, but perhaps I've learned much about those who do.
I hope you are not alluding to having some higher appreciation of art, cinema or the aesthetic... because I'd like to point out that you are posting on an Indiana Jones fansite... However - I do agree that post mortems of movies are fun...
Seriously, though, it's fascinating to read how and why people could like a film I largely detested. Certain arguments have caused me to reassess minor aspects of the film. I still don't care for it, but perhaps I've learned much about those who do.
Fair enough if you find it interesting to read why people may like a film you don't like (but does that mean you are implying you feel you have a better appreciation of things like Vile picked up? That is how it sounds, but forums can be hard to read really). But I also don't mind reading why people dislike it - but when it comes to things such as "because it is wrong to like it", that is when my eyes just begin to roll.
You say a majority of what like CS are kids with no sense of justice, but it could be said that most who don't, are middle aged people who have lost their sense of fun and adventure, and are trapped in the olden days.
I'm aware of that. It could be said, but it wouldn't be strictly correct. Yes, I know, one could have disliked the film because he/she is a middle-aged person who have lost the sense of fun and adventure. But I think it's much more probable that the average joe have disliked the movie because it doesn't have a decent plot, it lacks any good dialogues and it is far too much unbelievable.
The movie has so many faults and weaknesses that it's highly improbable that "having lost the sense of fun" is the only reason for one to dislike it.
Lacking the sense of judgement, instead, is clearly the only good reason for one to like the movie more then the previous three. (sorry I did write "judice" in the previous post... but I'm not sure "judice" is an english word... ... the right word is judgement, I guess...).
"Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" is a no-brainer movie, which relies far too much on stupid action sequences, low-level humour and special effects. It's evidence, no-one can deny it. There are too many bloopers in the movie. And they are bloopers for the sake of it. Too many stupid, exaggerated things. Too many scenes that a kid can like perhaps, but a mature guy can not. C'mon... some examples??
Gunpowder is NOT magnetic. At all. This means that the entire opening sequence (which still is the best thing of the film) is based on a blooper. And a big one.
An atomic bomb could annihilate an entire big city. In the movie it couldn't even destroy a common fridge.
Mutt Williams leads an action sequence (the jungle chase) which is one of the most unbelievable things I've ever seen in a movie. He is supposed to be a common 20 year-old boy, not a sort of acrobatic fencing world-champion.
C'mon...
And the Crystal Skull?? It is clearly shown that it's not a precious artifact, but it's the real skull of an alien being... so why the Hell should Orellana have taken it?? WHY??? What was the purpose of raiding a stupid and completely unuseful alien skull?? Especially considering that he had just arrived to Akator, an underground sanctuary filled with any kind of treasures from all antiquities??
Why did he took the skull of a stupid dead alien body??? WHY?????
And, better yet... how could he have entered the alien chamber to raid the skull if he didn't have the skull itself with him??
You see what I mean?? It's a poor movie. POOR. There are too many plot-holes and ingenuously written details.
I'm not suggesting one can't like "Indy 4", sure... but saying it was better then the others (I've read people stating it), or even on par with them, is simply lacking of judgement. Think about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benraianajones
And why be sad about IMDbs ratings, even if they do drop? WHy is anyone slightly interested in a movie rating site for that matter? Surely the only person's opinion that counts on the matter is yours? Do you like the movie? Yes/No. Who cares if others do not.
I'm totally with you on that. Actually, I didn't write that I'm sad because of the IMDb rating. I couldn't care less.
I wrote that I'm sad because I didn't like the movie at all. I was expecting it to be fantastic, a classy tribute to the adventure itself, a great fourth ride with the Man with the Hat.
Instead I got a tribute to the era of the fifties, done with the only intent of appealing to children.
I'm sad, really. And I'm writing it in almost any of my posts now.
P.S. sorry for the long, long post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
If you want to be objective... Try replacing KOTCS with TOD or LC in your post.
Alright. I've been "objective"... and so what??
Last edited by The Stranger : 06-24-2008 at 09:04 AM.
I'm aware of that. It could be said, but it wouldn't be strictly correct. Yes, I know, one could have disliked the film because he/she is a middle-aged person who have lost the sense of fun and adventure. But I think it's much more probable that the average joe have disliked the movie because it doesn't have a decent plot, it lacks any good dialogues and it is far too much unbelievable.
The movie has so many faults and weaknesses that it's highly improbable that "having lost the sense of fun" is the only reason for one to dislike it.
Here we go again with the stating of subjective opinion as fact and a complete disregard for the evidence that is out there. People liked the movie. Why start every conversation with the premise that KOTCS is one of the worst movies ever made and that everybody hates it? I thought you were asking for people to be objective???
Also... for every fault you can find with KOTCS I can easily find a similar one with TOD (as pointed out in numerous previous posts). So again, to state that KOTCS CANNOT be regarded in the same manner as the others is highly subjective.
Last edited by Darth Vile : 06-24-2008 at 09:06 AM.
Location: Australia (The only place Indy hasn't visited yet!)
Posts: 696
i dont think anyone had expectations that it would be fantastic. better than the rest. the film of the century. whatever
for me though it my expectations were slightly higher than the movie turned out to be because of steven, lucas and ford.
They didnt even bother to use ford in CS. he was just the face that every one knew as indy. he has so much charm and charisma and they made the film with the least amount of developing of the characters and so made almost every non action part boring and tedious (though the film was basicall just action any way.)
Overall im dissapointed and that is my opinion.
no IMDB rating will change that.
Gunpowder is NOT magnetic. At all. This means that the entire opening sequence (which still is the best thing of the film) is based on a blooper. And a big one.
Mutt Williams leads an action sequence (the jungle chase) which is one of the most unbelievable things I've ever seen in a movie. He is supposed to be a common 20 year-old boy, not a sort of acrobatic fencing world-champion.
C'mon...
And the Crystal Skull?? It is clearly shown that it's not a precious artifact, but it's the real skull of an alien being... so why the Hell should Orellana have taken it?? WHY??? What was the purpose of raiding a stupid and completely unuseful alien skull?? Especially considering that he had just arrived to Akator, an underground sanctuary filled with any kind of treasures from all antiquities??
Why did he took the skull of a stupid dead alien body??? WHY?????
And, better yet... how could he have entered the alien chamber to raid the skull if he didn't have the skull itself with him??
You see what I mean?? It's a poor movie. POOR. There are too many plot-holes and ingenuously written details.
I'm not suggesting one can't like "Indy 4", sure... but saying it was better then the others (I've read people stating it), or even on par with them, is simply lacking of judgement. Think about it.
P.S. sorry for the long, long post...
Don't worry about the post length! I like reading!
As for the gunpowder..I knew it wasn't magnetic..a friend watching also knew, but a lot of people - would not and do not...the only a reason a lot now do is because they have read about in blooper sites. It didn't really take the fun out of the movie for me aware either...besides, even if gunpowder wasn't magnetic...neither is gold, and the skull attracts that! Indy should have known the gunpowder didn't have metal in...but even if it didn't the skull attracts things not normally magnetic anyway.
I did dislike the Mutt Tarzan swing..he didn't look correct doing it for a start. I didn't mind the fencing on the jeeps, but another sword fight on the ground would have been nice. Though it is stated in the film before hand he is great at fencing anyway.
I am sure I read he got there and beheaded it to show he'd found the city or something. I am sure if someone came across some sort of alien hidden away in the modern day they'd not leave it there and they'd try and bag some proof of what they had found. He did also take some gold and such, which was buried in the grave with them, didn't he?
I am aware how the movie can be seen as not on par with the originals, but even so, I do enjoy the movie. I don't like marvel movies personally, but I like this one. (marvel has never interested me).
Don't worry about the post length! I like reading!
Thumbs up for that, mate!!!
It's not a common quality, nowadays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Why start every conversation with the premise that KOTCS is one of the worst movies ever made and that everybody hates it? I thought you were asking for people to be objective???
Have I ever said "Kingdom" is the worst movie ever made??? Where?? Have I ever said everybody hates it??
No, sorry. I just said it's pretty evident that it is inferior to the others.
In my opinion, and having tried to be the more objective I could, IT IS.
Now, do you want to know how I tried to be objective? Well, here you are:
- I strongly hated the ants sequence in "Kingdom". Un-necessary, un-original, out of place, and (as if it wasn't enough...) shot in an awful desert-like location.
But, judging from an objective point of view, I'm open to say it was a GREAT scene. Masterfully directed, it does have the thrill and one of the best fightings of the quadrilogy. (The shot of Indy turning to the camera, close-up on his angry face, while Dovchenko is staggering on the background IS GOLD. It is a fantastic scene. And thank you Steven Spielberg for your magic.)
- I was completely against all of the alien thing. I spent the last year thinking "they couldn't go as far as ruining the franchise with banal science fiction crap. I'm sure they will handle it in a really brilliant way...". I tried hard to convince myself. And I was almost sure I was right. I trusted Spielberg, Lucas and Ford.
And then what happened?? They not only decided to use aliens as the central key to the plot, providing us with an idiot action/sci-fi crossover... no, they also decided to show us EVERYTHING I was hoping not to see. Alien corpses from the Roswell incident, a living extraterrestrial being at the end of the film, and even a damned flying saucer!!!
But, you know what?? By being objective I'm glad to say the flying saucer scene is so spectacular it can easily be the overall BEST scene in all of the quadrilogy. It is an enormous pleasure for the eyes, on par with the "Path of God" scene in the Grail temple, which also is pure filmmaking magic.
- Another example... just to prove I'm being objective on all fronts. I adore "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Easily one of the best action movies ever made. But I'm also open to say it has many faults. By being objective, I can't deny it is FAR TOO SLOW PACED. Because it is. After the desert chase, if you think about it, nothing happens anymore. No more action, no more thrill, just flat and boring dialogues 'till the end.
- I could go on for hours, analyzing every single aspect of any of the four movies. I like doing things like that. Really. Maybe next time, but...
The conclusion is... I am being objective. You aren't.
And as far as I can try to find valid good things in "Kingdom", it still is the worst of them all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Also... for every fault you can find with KOTCS I can find a similar one with TOD
Examples?
Last edited by The Stranger : 06-24-2008 at 10:23 AM.
Original to have hoards bugs chasing people - consuming them? No. But the mummy wasn't the first to do such a thing either, hoards of bugs in games and books have been around for years! There isn't much on Earth now that is original, most is inspired from something else.
Have I ever said "Kingdom" is the worst movie ever made??? Where?? Have I ever said everybody hates it??
No, sorry. I just said it's pretty evident that it is inferior to the others.
In my opinion, and having tried to be the more objective I could, IT IS.
That was a generalisation aimed at those who just post diatribes for the sake of it (not aimed specifically at you). Nonetheless - I call you on your belief of "IT IS"... for all the reasons stated on this thread and others (too many to name).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
But, you know what?? By being objective I'm glad to say the flying saucer scene is so spectacular it can easily be the overall BEST scene in all of the quadrilogy. It is an enormous pleasure for the eyes, on par with the "Path of God" scene in the Grail temple, which also is pure filmmaking magic.
I'm glad you think that KOTCS contains the best overall scene in any Indy movie (surely of merit in itself if that be the case)... Although I'm not sure many will agree with the scene that you think outshines all others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
- Another example... just to prove I'm being objective on all fronts. I adore "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Easily one of the best action movies ever made. But I'm also open to say it has many faults. By being objective, I can't deny it is FAR TOO SLOW PACED. Because it is. After the desert chase, if you think about it, nothing happens anymore. No more action, no more thrill, just flat and boring dialogues 'till the end.
Agreed - But movies have changed somewhat. Believe it or not, Raiders was considered wall to wall action when it first came out... And it was when viewed in context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
The conclusion is... I am being objective. You aren't.
And as far as I can try to find valid good things in "Kingdom", it still is the worst of them all.
There you go again with that stating opinion as fact. Have you got a different Bible to me where it was written on tablets of stone that KOTCS is the worst Indy movie? I must have skipped that page... Besides, I think TOD is the worst of them. What are you going to do about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Examples?
I'm not going to bore everyone else with all the same examples again. There must be a search function somewhere on these boards... But in short, if you can empirically prove that "chilled monkey brains" is funnier or that the ripping out of beating hearts from those who continue to live is less silly than anything in KOTCS, I'll buy you a virtual drink my friend...
Also... for every fault you can find with KOTCS I can easily find a similar one with TOD (as pointed out in numerous previous posts). So again, to state that KOTCS CANNOT be regarded in the same manner as the others is highly subjective.
That’s the one thing I find most fascinating with all the bashers. They seem to completely ignore the silliness, impossibilities, and comedy relief that are just as plentiful in Temple & Crusade as they are in Kingdom.
I realize there are a few trolls and baiters that have created accounts for entertainment purposes. Excluding them, there are some actual fans that really do seem blind to those same elements being in Temple & Crusade.
Impossible
Kingdom – refrigerator surviving bomb
Temple – mine car chase\jump
Crusade – plane flying into tunnel losing only wings & sliding upright by Indy’s car
Silly
Kingdom – big snake as a rope
Temple – Willie at the camp site
Crusade – Indy as a Scottish lord
Kingdom – car driving into tree then into river
Temple – Indy & Willie falling from awning to awning and into car
Crusade – giant screw chopping up boat that somehow doesn’t sink
Kingdom – Ox getting help
Temple – antidote\diamond scene on dance floor
Crusade – Indy & dad tied up back to back with big rope – same bat time, same bat channel
Comedy
Kingdom – kid asking question after Indy slides to a stop in library
Temple – Willie getting on elephant backwards
Crusade – librarian stamping books while Indy cracks floor
You said it well, that's how i see it. It might be the 'worst' Indy, for now (although many people would disagree already), but i'm convinced that after, let's say, 10 yrs, it will be nicely fitted between the other 3. I mean, TOD is my 2nd fave, and ROTLA is my 3rd fave. Not that ROTLA is bad, oh no! But i was just too young to like it. Because of TOD's sillyness and dumbness, i started to like Indiana Jones. And that's what KOTCS is bringing us again.
Heh! I'm pretty much the same way. I'm one of those wierdo's that adores Temple of Doom. I’m not one of those people that cares how others personally feel about the film. You’ll see people around here that are almost personally insulted by a difference of opinion. You’ll see people that insist that people love Crystal Skull. It's like they cry at night when faced with the truth of this being viewed (on average) as the least. You’ll see people that demand you judge it in an “objective” way. They say this again and again like a broken freaking record. Truth be told they’re not saying that whatsoever. They’re actually saying “Judge it my way or the highway.” If they meant that then they really wouldn't (nor should) care about what anyone else has to say. An objective opinion can still loathe this film. It’s got more then enough ridiculousness for an outsider to find it obnoxious. In turn they should be objective and understand that Indiana Jones won't be everyones cup of tea. Is that the apocalypse? Plus their level of hypocrisy is…astounding. For my part, everyone on this entire planet could despise Temple of Doom. I personally couldn‘t care less. It’s not going to stop me from loving it. All too many people care too much about what others think. This forum is the perfect example of that. It’s really rather pathetic behavior. It blatantly displays an obvious lack of confidence. So to sum up the point, let people think for themselves.
That’s the one thing I find most fascinating with all the drones. They seem to completely exaggerate the silliness, impossibilities, and comic relief in the original trilogy just to put Crystal Skull on par with the former. Need I really say...comparing a mine cart jump to surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge...*shakes head*... I really don't have to say any more. We’re in Idiocracy...
Last edited by MaxPhactor23 : 06-24-2008 at 05:38 PM.
That’s the one thing I find most fascinating with all the drones. They seem to completely exaggerate the silliness, impossibilities, and comic relief in the original trilogy just to put Crystal Skull on par with the former.
How is pointing out scenes from the other films "completely exaggerating"? Those scenes were every bit as silly, comedic, and impossible. In each case, for all three films, they were played either for laughs, for fun, or you have to suspend belief.
And for the record, I'm not trying to put Kingdom on par with Temple & Crusade. In my world, it's better. I don't have to justify my thoughts, nor do I have to defend them - although, I have explained them a few times for clarity. They don't ebb and flow with the posts of haters and gushers. I dig all the films - they're a close 2, 3, 4 after Raiders.
Sorry kid, it's not about being a drone. It's about putting my thoughts up as a part of the ongoing discussions - just as you do.
How is pointing out scenes from the other films "completely exaggerating"? Those scenes were every bit as silly, comedic, and impossible. In each case, for all three films, they were played either for laughs, for fun, or you have to suspend belief.
And for the record, I'm not trying to put Kingdom on par with Temple & Crusade. In my world, it's better. I don't have to justify my thoughts, nor do I have to defend them - although, I have explained them a few times for clarity. They don't ebb and flow with the posts of haters and gushers. I dig all the films - they're a close 2, 3, 4 after Raiders.
Sorry kid, it's not about being a drone. It's about putting my thoughts up as a part of the ongoing discussions - just as you do.
You call those thoughts? Could have fooled me…
Let me introduce you to something I’d like to call probability. Apparently you’ve never met. Some of it is equivalent and most of it is not. Comparing a mine cart landing to surviving a nuclear blast isn’t even in the same general vicinity. The mine cart jump isn’t likely whatsoever…but it’s certainly not impossible. That’s not the same for the fridge scene. Saying that the infamous rubber tree scene is just like Willie and Indiana jumping out of Club Obi-Wan is utterly illogical. It’s so obnoxiously stupid that it’s funny. You've actually made me laugh. Congratulations! You do realize that actual stuntee’s did that? Now you are also aware that the tree could never actually spring back like a commie swatter in reality? Why do you think they used such obvious CGI? Thus you cannot compare them. One is achievable in real life and one is pure fantasy. They all have laughs and gags. Raiders isn’t even excluded. Crystal Skull heightened many of those gags and gimmicks to a level of blatant impossibility. The former films do not include anything of this raised and unreasonable level. There is a big difference between unlikely and impossible. So please check your bias at the door and let the grown-ups talk. If you can't realize just how exaggerated Crystal Skull is even in comparison to the former Indiana Jones films then you're truly blinded by that said bias. Talking to you would be like conversing with a wall. I'm sorry if all this logic and reason seemingly goes over your head...*rollseyes*...
Last edited by MaxPhactor23 : 06-24-2008 at 06:15 PM.
Heh! I'm pretty much the same way. I'm one of those wierdo's that adores Temple of Doom. I’m not one of those people that cares how others personally feel about the film. You’ll see people around here that are almost personally insulted by a difference of opinion.
That’s the one thing I find most fascinating with all the drones. They seem to completely exaggerate the silliness, impossibilities, and comic relief in the original trilogy just to put Crystal Skull on par with the former. Need I really say...comparing a mine cart jump to surviving a nuclear blast in a fridge...*shakes head*... I really don't have to say any more. We’re in Idiocracy...
Classic... I think you have been fairly vocal about KOTCS and how you view those that like it. In fact, I'd say that you are one of a few here who seem to take it as a personal insult if anyone states a liking for the movie (unless I've completely misread your posts).
Personally speaking… I’m happy to admit to being opinionated and quick to brandish my vocabulary to state a case… but please don’t try and convince anyone that you are somehow better than all that…
Location: Australia (The only place Indy hasn't visited yet!)
Posts: 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTriple
That’s the one thing I find most fascinating with all the bashers. They seem to completely ignore the silliness, impossibilities, and comedy relief that are just as plentiful in Temple & Crusade as they are in Kingdom.
I realize there are a few trolls and baiters that have created accounts for entertainment purposes. Excluding them, there are some actual fans that really do seem blind to those same elements being in Temple & Crusade.
Impossible
Kingdom – refrigerator surviving bomb
Temple – mine car chase\jump
Crusade – plane flying into tunnel losing only wings & sliding upright by Indy’s car
Silly
Kingdom – big snake as a rope
Temple – Willie at the camp site
Crusade – Indy as a Scottish lord
Kingdom – car driving into tree then into river
Temple – Indy & Willie falling from awning to awning and into car
Crusade – giant screw chopping up boat that somehow doesn’t sink
Kingdom – Ox getting help
Temple – antidote\diamond scene on dance floor
Crusade – Indy & dad tied up back to back with big rope – same bat time, same bat channel
Comedy
Kingdom – kid asking question after Indy slides to a stop in library
Temple – Willie getting on elephant backwards
Crusade – librarian stamping books while Indy cracks floor
but their are still the people that forget all the things from ROTLA
its impossible to climb under a moving car and come out on the otherside fine.
All the movies have their flaws that are silly stupid or just impossible but that is why we love them.
its justs the small population of fanboys in the world that enjoy pointing these things out to make them the best at knowing about Indy.
Get over it and enjoy the movies for what they are.
Let me introduce you to something I’d like to call probability. Apparently you’ve never met. Some of it is equivalent and most of it is not. Comparing a mine cart landing to surviving a nuclear blast isn’t even in the same general vicinity.
Just had to interject here as well... for what it's worth... Now it's a given that Indiana Jones is all about exaggerated and preposterous situations… and we have to take them with a pinch of salt. But as a concept, I’ve read many accounts of survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (although I’m sure none survived by hiding in a fridge ), but I’ve never seen or read anything about someone surviving the event of having their heart ripped out by an evil Thuggee. You see… it’s all about probability for me...
Classic... I think you have been fairly vocal about KOTCS and how you view those that like it. In fact, I'd say that you are one of a few here who seem to take it as a personal insult if anyone states a liking for the movie (unless I've completely misread your posts).
Personally speaking… I’m happy to admit to being opinionated and quick to brandish my vocabulary to state a case… but please don’t try and convince anyone that you are somehow better than all that…
Oh come now Vile...everyone better then you.
Once you finally accept that Crystal Skull is considered the least of the films, you might want this. Thought I'd help a brother out.
Last edited by MaxPhactor23 : 06-24-2008 at 07:03 PM.
I like the movie, although I think the last 10 minutes is pretty terrible. I think it's worth noting that the guy who could best help with that is ironically ...George Lucas. Seriously, whatever else he gets wrong, the ending was always the best part of those new Star Wars, and in his younger days he could cut anything and make it seem good. It's Spielberg who seems to have lost the ability to end his movies. (What was the last Spielberg movie where the end/third act was the best part?)
Anyway IMDB isn't a good measure of anything, it's full of Unabomber-type fruitcakes who write long angry manifestos, that isn't representative of how the rest of the world reacts to stuff. (And it's especially useless for an Indiana Jones movie since the initial reaction to both previous sequels was nothing like it is now.)
... the right word is judgement, I guess...). 
