The Indiana Jones films by their very nature are inspired by the pulp works of the 30's, 40's, and now 50's (among other things). Which of Indy's adventures do you think borrows the most?
Personally, I'd say its a tie between TOD and KOTCS, ironically the two installments claimed to be the most 'cartoonish'. ROTLA, while still a very pulpy film, seems more grounded. While LC seems the least of the films.
I really do think that Kingdom was the "pulpiest," as it almost fully aligned itself with 50s B-movies. The shot in which Indy is standing in front of the flying saucer and watching as it levitates really decided it for me - Kingdom is the "pulpiest."
There's a great quote from Roger Ebert's review of Last Crusade that specifically addresses its pulp influences:
There is a certain style of illustration that appeared in the boys' adventure magazines of the 1940s - in those innocent publications that have been replaced by magazines on punk lifestyles and movie monsters. The illustrations were always about the same. They showed a small group of swarthy men hovering over a treasure trove with greedy grins on their bearded faces, while in the foreground, two teenage boys peered out from behind a rock in wonder and astonishment. The point of view was always over the boys' shoulders; the reader was invited to share this forbidden glimpse of the secret world of men.
"Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" begins with just such a scene; director Steven Spielberg must have been paging through his old issues of Boys' Life and Thrilling Wonder Tales, down in the basement.
There's a great quote from Roger Ebert's review of Last Crusade that specifically addresses its pulp influences:
There is a certain style of illustration that appeared in the boys' adventure magazines of the 1940s - in those innocent publications that have been replaced by magazines on punk lifestyles and movie monsters. The illustrations were always about the same. They showed a small group of swarthy men hovering over a treasure trove with greedy grins on their bearded faces, while in the foreground, two teenage boys peered out from behind a rock in wonder and astonishment. The point of view was always over the boys' shoulders; the reader was invited to share this forbidden glimpse of the secret world of men.
"Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" begins with just such a scene; director Steven Spielberg must have been paging through his old issues of Boys' Life and Thrilling Wonder Tales, down in the basement.
Thats freaky! I read that just yesterday and I think thats what got the ball rolling on the idea for this thread!
I'd definitely say KOTCS replaces TOD as the pulpiest: Psychic commies, saucermen from mars, rocket sleds, atomic bombs, giant ants, lost cities, monkey attacks, graveyard warriors, ufos, etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James
I'd definitely say KOTCS replaces TOD as the pulpiest: Psychic commies, saucermen from mars, rocket sleds, atomic bombs, giant ants, lost cities, monkey attacks, graveyard warriors, ufos, etc.
The term pulp fiction originally referred to "pulp"
paper magazines of the late 19th century, such as
Weird Tales and The Strand, which featured the work
of such prolific literary masters as H.G. Wells
(The Time Machine, The War of the Worlds), Sir
Arthur Conan Doyle, (The Lost World, The Adventures
of Sherlock Holmes) J.R.R. Tolkien (Lord of the
Rings) and Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan of the
Apes). Generally, pulp fiction stories focused on
man struggling with dark, powerful and often, evil
forces -- both internal and external --beyond his
control. By the early and mid-20th century, pulp
fiction, with its mix of science fact and
speculative fiction, launched a new era and genre
of fantasy stories with compelling alternative or
parallel realities.
Quote:
as if to say "This movie is a piece of pulp fiction (so it
probably shouldn't be taken too seriously)." Not homage to anything,
just...self-referential irony.
Oh, I loved the camp interrogation. I was actually surprised they were taking the film into that type of far-out, psychic territory. (It reminded me of Indy's "possession" in TOD.) I had a similar reaction to the "gunpowder" scene in Hangar 51.
Btw, nice shots. Do you have any of Indy witnessing the atomic blast and ufo?
Seeing at LC at the current moment has 0%, I began thinking more and more about it and realized, comparatively, LC is more like a piece of literature than comic book pulp. My reasoning being that-
- the very time period Indy and co. find themselves immersed in (the middle ages) is more
- the quest for his father/the issues that go behind that are more indepth than that of comics
- plently of slow, contemplative sections throughout
I picked TOD. The constant screaming, ripped out hearts and monkey brains put it over the top for me (in a good way).
It's totally TOD. Screaming, demonic cults, possession, gratuitous violence, dark setting. I dunno, I can understand how people say KOTCS, but I feel TOD is more sensationalized. Close call, though.
Seeing at LC at the current moment has 0%, I began thinking more and more about it and realized, comparatively, LC is more like a piece of literature than comic book pulp.
I don't think I agree with you, but you do raise a good point in my mind about Last Crusade's inspirations compared to the other movies.
Last Crusade is often cited as the Indiana Jones movie that's the least inspired and has the weakest story, and I agree. (For the record, my ranking of the movies is in the order they were released, and I love Crusade.) I think the reason for this lies in its influences. All of the Indiana Jones movies are homages to 1930s Republic serials and pulp fiction in general, but beyond that each of the movies has its own more specific inspiration.
Raiders of the Lost Ark is very much modeled after Treasure of the Sierra Madre, most obviously in its opening scene. Indy has a lot of Bogart-like qualities in the movie (see: heavy drinking), and Spielberg employs an almost noirish use of shadow. The desert cinematography also arguably recalls David Lean.
Temple of Doom is a Gunga Din type movie.
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is a 1950s B-movie.
But what about Last Crusade? What's that movie's major inspiration? Well, it's Raiders of the Lost Ark, and that's the problem. It isn't interested in setting itself apart so much as being a really good rehash of Raiders. It's unoriginal. I think the reason Last Crusade works as well as it does is largely to do with Spielberg's fondness for the material, as shown in the genuine emotional resonance that exists in moments between Indy and Henry Sr. Spielberg's always had a hard on for father-son movies (which is evidenced by the fact that every single one of his movies has a father-son relationship). Last Crusade is the perfect example of why execution is even more important than story. Objectively speaking, Crystal Skull has a much better basic story than Crusade does, but it doesn't matter because of how inept the storytelling is. Spielberg's heart is in Last Crusade, and it shows, and it keeps the movie great despite the goofiness and retreading. I'm not sure how that accounts for the greatness of Temple of Doom, which Spielberg says his heart wasn't really in story-wise, but I still see a breathless energy in Doom that is utterly nonexistent in Crystal Skull. Maybe Spielberg didn't dig Temple's story, but it definitely feels like he was into the production in general.
Anyway, I know I derailed a bit, but I think the material itself and the director's feelings for it had a lot to do with why the feel of Last Crusade might be the least pulpy. That aspect is definitely still there in some form though, as the Ebert quote point out.
Last edited by Udvarnoky : 11-06-2008 at 03:38 PM.
This is a great thread! I felt Indy less since I went back to school but now I reading it I'm starting pick up interest again. As for me I'm going with KOTCS because a lot of elements screamed pulp fiction especialy with Spalko, the nuked fridge, giant ants, and the crystal skull and the extaterranstial ancestors. TOD however comes at a close second.
I watched KOTCS and I put my TV into black & white mode and it sure made up for the special effects in that film. In all honesty if you put KOTCS in black & white it actually does feel like a 1950s sci-fi B movie.
It’s all down to definitions. For me, “Pulp” always translates to “Boy’s Own Adventure” type material. And that being the case, I still think Raiders epitomises this. From poisonous darts, deadly snakes, hanging beneath a truck, to flying demonic angels… It’s archetypal pulp fiction for me…
I think the reason Last Crusade works as well as it does is largely to do with Spielberg's fondness for the material, as shown in the genuine emotional resonance that exists in moments between Indy and Henry Sr. Spielberg's always had a hard on for father-son movies (which is evidenced by the fact that every single one of his movies has a father-son relationship). Last Crusade is the perfect example of why execution is even more important than story. Objectively speaking, Crystal Skull has a much better basic story than Crusade does, but it doesn't matter because of how inept the storytelling is. Spielberg's heart is in Last Crusade, and it shows, and it keeps the movie great despite the goofiness and retreading. I'm not sure how that accounts for the greatness of Temple of Doom, which Spielberg says his heart wasn't really in story-wise, but I still see a breathless energy in Doom that is utterly nonexistent in Crystal Skull. Maybe Spielberg didn't dig Temple's story, but it definitely feels like he was into the production in general.
I think whilst you make interesting points, you yourself can see problems with that line of thought.
As you imply, TOD seems to epitomize a movie that falls short on narrative structure, character development and “heart”. But despite that… it’s a damned fine entertaining movie. Whereas, KOTCS certainly has a lot of heart, it spends time on the character development of it’s main protagonist… but for some viewers, it falls short.
You mention “inept storytelling”… but I think that relates more to TOD than it does to KOTCS. So why for you does TOD seem to work and KOTCS not?
I think that all of the films have an element of "pulp" in them with the exception of Crusade which to me had more of 1940's film/story feel to it. I dont think pulp is necessarily "cartoonish" per say but I could be wrong.
TOD and KOTC have probably the most pulpish feel to them in being more "over the top" in terms of the villians and the over story line.
I actually prefer the Indy of Raiders because he a little more "darker" or rough around the edges then in the other films more mysterious.
I prefer the graverobber to the academic.
That is more pulpish to me.
For example the Sean Connery 007 vs the Roger Moore 007. Sean Connery was much more true to Ian Fleming's Bond.... but I digress..
