Discuss Chapter 9 - A Truth Revealed (DVD chapter by chapter discussion)
Onto the second half of KOTS!
Chapter 9 - A Truth Revealed
1:05:45 - 1:12:05
"I've got that sinking feeling..."
(description pulled from the Indiana Jones Wiki)
Jones deciphers what Oxley has been saying and the clues he draws on some paper. Both Jones and Spalko partially locate the temple of Akator by figuring the Amazon river to be "the great snake" and that a dream Oxley had written about on his ideograms refers to a river called Sono, Portuguese for dream. While everyone is distracted, Mutt seizes the opportunity to punch a Soviet soldier and overturn a table, cuing the groups escape. Spalko and the soldiers are about to give chase but Mutt sets one of their tents on fire.
When Indy and Marion fall into a dry sand pit, Mutt runs off to get something to pull them out with. While they are sinking Marion reveals that Mutt is Indy's son, to which Indy reacts by arguing with Marion about letting Mutt quit school, despite the fact that he had told Mutt that if it felt wrong then he shouldn't do it, he should've done what he wanted to do. Mutt returns with a huge rat snake and Marion easily climbs out, however, Indy has a harder time due to his phobia of snakes, so they called it a rope and Indy eventually made it out. Oxley, told to get help, loosely interprets the message and leads Spalko and the soldiers as "reinforcements."
Once again Please no trolling or bashing of the film. The word "sucks" isn't a valid form of explaining why you hate something. I'd like a friendly discussion for those who enjoy the film and watching it on the small screen.
This scene is probably the scene I dislike the most. It's too silly and too remniscent of Temple. I don't like too much comedy in my Indy movie.
It was just a little silly and not needed. And the set kinda looked fake.
But, I can look past that b/c I hardly remember this scene and I skip over it whenever I watch the film. As I do with the last few minutes of the jungle chase (Monkeys, sword fighting on jeeps) and the rubber tree and three waterfalls scenes.
Yeah, this is also my least favorite scene. I didn't mind the fake set, I think fake sets fit with Indy films and I actually like that look, what I didn't like is how the whole escape didn't take the story anywhere. All it did was create a (too obvious) moment to tell the audience that Mutt was Indy's son, something which was pretty obvious from the start. They could have done that in the back of the jeep before the jungle chase, while the audience has the feeling we are actually going somewhere. And then of course there is the ridiculous joke with the snake, which didn't do much good for Indy's character, or for his snake phobia, which turns out to be bypassed pretty easily by saying that it's not a snake at all, just a rope. It was just way too childish for me. Finally, there is the big anti climax of Ox bringing the Russians, something we saw coming right when Indy asks him to go for help and everybody's taken back to the camp. Maybe it's the nostalgia I have for Doom, but I think that the humor in Skull is actually even more immature then in Doom.
This is right out of the Temple playbook and is a ton of fun.
I like how Indy and Marion bicker like they did in the Well of Souls. Indy goes from take-charge to vulnerable in an instant and it's one of Ford's best scenes in the movie.
The snake gag was horrible. The only thing that gives the scene any enjoyment for me is Harrison's reactions, which are fantastic and a perfect example of a classy actor doing his best with subpar material, but the execution of this scene is so fundamentally flawed you have to wonder how it even got past the concept stage.
First of all, the snake gag is in there for no other reason than to say, "This is an Indiana Jones movie, so we'd better have a scene that show's Indy's snake phobia." The totally ungraceful way it's handled makes it feel forced and obligatory, bordering on insulting. And yes, it's way too silly, not because an Indy film can't and hasn't have that level of silliness, but because it doesn't provide enough excitement to actually justify its existence. We know Indy is really afraid of snakes, but it doesn't make sense that he would turn into a 2 year old and prefer to drown in quicksand than touch a nonvenomous snake. When Indy was in the Well of Souls, he was surrounded by a bajillion snakes, many of which were poisonous. He stared down a cobra about to strike. He hated being there, and that's why it was funny, but he still did what he had to do to escape with Marion. (While he was climbing stuff and actively looking for a way out, it was Marion who was helplessly piggypacking him and screaming.) He was scared and pissed off, but not paralyzed and hopeless. If the Indy we see in the quicksand scene was at the beginning of Raiders, he would have jumped out of Jock's plane when he saw the snake instead of being uncomfortable and irritated. It was a cheap gag that shouldn't have happened, period.
And just to prove that I'm not some curmudgeony ass who doesn't understand this franchise and can't see the potential humor or fun in a scene like that, I would point out that they could have kept the gag in with better execution with a result that would have been infinitely better. Say, for example, that when Indy and the others enter the clearing to hide from the Soviets, they see a giant, dangerous looking snake in the corner of the screen, hissing. We get a close-up, the characters regard it (Indy with an appropriate reaction), and then we move on. The quicksand scene happens, Indy finds out Mutt is his son, etc. Only when Mutt comes back, instead of it being a snake (like he couldn't have found anything else), he comes back with a vine or something believable, and proceeds to get his mother out of the quicksand. On the final pull to get her out, the vine snaps. Now Indy is still sinking. His head is practically underneath the surface. There's no time. Mutt frantically looks for anything nearby...
Bam. See how much of an improvement it would have been? The very act of pulling Indy out with a snake is still there, and still ridiculous and funny, but it's staged in such a way that it's actually tense, exciting, and fun..you know, the thing an Indiana Jones movie is supposed to be when Spielberg isn't making sure the seven year olds in the audience don't feel too tense. There would have been that "oh ****" moment that would have occurred to Indy and the audience when we realizes what Mutt is thinking. It's funny, but funny in a more classical Indiana Jones way, because the situation is desperate. Indy has to grab onto something in the next few seconds or he's dead. He has no time to argue. And make the snake poisonous, or at least give the mother some big teeth. In the final movie, it just feels so manipulative and perfunctory. The mood is way too light, nobody seems to be really taking the situation seriously, and to cap it all off John Williams' music here is the kind of ditty you'd expect to accompany plate spinning. After looking around, the only thing Mutt could really find was a snake? That was what they hinged this entire dynamite gag on? It was implausible and lame. It should have been implausible and fun.
One of my favorite bits in this scene is how the music stops when Indy learns the truth about Mutt.It adds nicely to the impact of the news Indy is receiving.
It was a cheap gag that shouldn't have happened, period.
Do you feel the same about the Temple of Doom snake?
The scene has similarities to the cut Jones/Willie Scott boa constrictor scene with Jones doing nothing - apart from offer advice - to help Scott the moment he finds out it's a snake attacking her.
While I don't like the elasticity of the KotCS snake, I do like the sequence. It seems to be a left over of the earlier scripts with larger animals living around Akator.
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Just out of interest, will a chapter by chapter be done for the first three films (maybe Young Indy aswell)? Or has that already happened?
Yes, it's a great beat just before his response. I loved Marion in this scene. Karen played it more as impatient with Indy than afraid of dying which was a good move.
Do you feel the same about the Temple of Doom snake?
The Temple of Doom snake gag doesn't compare at all. It's not belabored, and doesn't require several impossibilities to happen. You make it sound like my problem with the scene was the very issue of Indy being afraid of snakes. (And again, impossibilities are very much welcome in Indy movies, when the entertainment they're in service of succeeds.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao_Che
Just out of interest, will a chapter by chapter be done for the first three films (maybe Young Indy aswell)? Or has that already happened?
I don't think so, but I'd be very much a proponent of the idea. I think these have been really enlightening in letting people express their more specific likes and dislikes for the movie.
The Temple of Doom snake gag doesn't compare at all. It's not belabored, and doesn't require several impossibilities to happen. You make it sound like my problem with the scene was the very issue of Indy being afraid of snakes. (And again, impossibilities are very much welcome in Indy movies, when the entertainment they're in service of succeeds.)
No, I was just wondering what your stance on the snake scene with ToD was when you were using Raiders as the example since Scott whipping away the snake has little impact on the rest the film.
Y'know: "This is an Indiana Jones movie, so we'd better have a scene that show's Indy's snake phobia."
The Temple of Doom gag doesn't outstay its welcome. Indy sees a snake, Willie throws it, Indy reacts. The end. Whether or not a gag is in service of the story (it's not like the snakes in Raiders were either) and whether or not the gag works are two very distinct issues. It's true, the Temple gag isn't necessary, but because it's nothing more than a fun, disposable capper to the campfire scene (plus, Temple is the first sequel instead of the third), it does not call attention to itself nearly as much as the snake pit gag does. It simply wasn't clever enough way to implement a gag that everyone expects to see.
Last edited by Udvarnoky : 01-01-2009 at 02:39 PM.
While I agree with the points raised by a couple of other posters, I do think it's a fun scene, although seeing as almost the exact same thing happens in an episode of Manimal, it's just a little bit embarrassing.
It wan't a bad scene. The only part that seemed to stick out like a sore thumb is the small bit where Indy is explaining the difference between quick sand and dry sand. It's not all that bad it's just how it was executed. And Harrison's voice sounds a little different too, maybe it was a voice-over that they did.
This scene is my favorite part of Shia's performance in the film, and my second favorite of Karen's (the first being in the back of the truck).
For example, how Shia delivers "There's no Sears and Roebuck around here!" is flawless and makes me laugh everytime.
The way him and Karen look at eachother before saying in unison: "Grab the rope!"
And just Karen's general delivery in the sandpit.
This scene may not have been the best scene from the directing standpoint, but this is one instance where the actors save the director's ass. They really did well.
