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Old 03-23-2010, 01:42 PM   #126
Wilhelm
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You're right. And Star Wars and Back to the Future are trilogies with a common narrative (To be concluded in Part 2 etc), but Indiana Jones are individual stories, like James Bond.

I'm sure that Zemeckis didn't like Indy 4, but in recent years his movies are boring with his motion capture obsession. I prefer the Spielberg form the 2000s (Minority Report, Munich, Catch me if you can, War of the worlds) with a variety of styles and stories.
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:29 PM   #127
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But the genesis for both scenes (Bttf and Kotcs) is the movie "The Atomic Kid" (1954) with Mickey Rooney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWGsryWhxIA

Great stuff.

This is why the endless attempts to rationalize KOTCS are so pointless: It's a movie that pays tribute to an implausible genre. Not a genre that was concerned with gritty realism or that relied heavily on innovative stuntwork. Instead, one that placed a higher value on surreal fantasy, imagination, and visual effects.

And it does so with a character that became immortal in his previous adventure. (No doubt someone just read that sentence, missed the point entirely, and is now eager to point out that he was only briefly immortal.)

I'm sorry, but if you take a character like Indiana Jones and drop him into a fantastic world from the 1950s, you shouldn't be surprised when logic sails out the window in a fridge.
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Old 03-24-2010, 06:55 PM   #128
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This is why the endless attempts to rationalize KOTCS are so pointless: It's a movie that pays tribute to an implausible genre. Not a genre that was concerned with gritty realism or that relied heavily on innovative stuntwork. Instead, one that placed a higher value on surreal fantasy, imagination, and visual effects.

I agree with you. But I think that the criticisms are less directed at the implausibility of the 50s genre, and more aimed at the choice to pay homage to it instead of using the 30s style again. I think that Lucas and co. thought that we all looked at the OT as an homage to Republic Serials so that we would expect CS to be an homage to the 50s B-movies. But I don't think that audiences had that expectation. The style of the OT was not identified by the public as a serial style, since that style had been laid to rest for 50 years. They simply identified it as the Indy style. That became their expectation.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:23 PM   #129
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@ James: Bravo, sir. Bravo. I was thinking along those exact same lines but you worded it perfectly.

@ Ajax: Great point that hadn't occured to me before but makes perfect sense.
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:00 PM   #130
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I think that the criticisms are less directed at the implausibility of the 50s genre, and more aimed at the choice to pay homage to it instead of using the 30s style again.

It's perfectly understandable, since we are talking about two very different genres. Ironically, if you look at the most common complaints about KOTCS, those are the very qualities that make it so much like a B movie from the era.

However, while I agree that it's probably the fundamental problem many fans had, I'm not sure they actually realize that distinction. It's not uncommon to see someone say they accept the B movie premise, then go on to suggest the various ways they think it should've been changed to a serial.

But as you said, it all boils down to fan expectations and what they consider the true goal of this franchise. Is it to forever adapt a 1930s style using 1980s technology? A love letter to pulp in all its various forms? Or is it simply to provide old-fashioned entertainment repackaged for the entire family? Obviously, everyone's mileage will vary, and we all know that's the only one that really counts.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:07 AM   #131
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It's perfectly understandable, since we are talking about two very different genres. Ironically, if you look at the most common complaints about KOTCS, those are the very qualities that make it so much like a B movie from the era.

However, while I agree that it's probably the fundamental problem many fans had, I'm not sure they actually realize that distinction. It's not uncommon to see someone say they accept the B movie premise, then go on to suggest the various ways they think it should've been changed to a serial.

But as you said, it all boils down to fan expectations and what they consider the true goal of this franchise. Is it to forever adapt a 1930s style using 1980s technology? A love letter to pulp in all its various forms? Or is it simply to provide old-fashioned entertainment repackaged for the entire family? Obviously, everyone's mileage will vary, and we all know that's the only one that really counts.

Movie goers are a lot more critical today than they were in the 1930s. Expectations are so much higher. If you watch a 1930s pulp serial, such as those churned out by Republic, they're laughably bad. So appallingly bad that you watch them just to see how bad they can get.

Terrible acting. Terrible direction. Terrible scripts. Men in nappies and shower caps running from carboard robots. All that Indiana Jones retains of the pulp serial nostalgia is the period and the impossible cliffhangers. This is pulp repackaged for a more discerning audience.

Contained within the scope of the 'impossible cliffhanger' are the scenes which make no sense if we were to set them in the real world. In the 1930s Flash Gordon there are men dressed as escapees from the early nineteenth century, alongside pantomime Robin Hoods armed with swords, flying in rocket ships. It makes no sense, but to a depression era 1930s audience it was wild escapism.

With an Indiana Jones film we have to accept that that there will be also be wild and inexplicable scenes, otherwise it wouldn't be pulp. With KOTCS the escapism has broadened to encompass the wide-eyed optimism of the 1950s that was coming to terms with the wonders of that double-edged sword known as atomic power. It was only natural that Indy would encounter this atomic power up close, and to survive it in a far-out fashion becoming of the B-movie genre that inspired the film.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:17 AM   #132
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This is why the endless attempts to rationalize KOTCS are so pointless: It's a movie that pays tribute to an implausible genre.

No other installment of this series has strived so hard to project a particular era as KOTCS did. Part of the reason that the OT films are so timeless is that the approach to their time is more casual, much less self conscious; I also understand the self-conscious thing with KOTCS, it had been 19 years, but we're all over the hump now. We need a 5th film now that everyone's in for it. I understand why SS and GL felt the need to re-establish the character, and try to reinvent the feel because of the "new" place in time for Indy. It was simply unnecessary, but as creators instead of viewers/fans, they couldn't see it.

It doesn't explain everything, but it's the best I've got.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:42 AM   #133
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No other installment of this series has strived so hard to project a particular era as KOTCS did. Part of the reason that the OT films are so timeless is that the approach to their time is more casual, much less self conscious; I also understand the self-conscious thing with KOTCS, it had been 19 years, but we're all over the hump now.

We need a 5th film now that everyone's in for it. I understand why SS and GL felt the need to re-establish the character, and try to reinvent the feel because of the "new" place in time for Indy. It was simply unnecessary, but as creators instead of viewers/fans, they couldn't see it.

It doesn't explain everything, but it's the best I've got.

I agree with you that there was a very conscious effort to keep telling the audience that we're in the 1950s. I think that comes down to a combination of Lucas' obsession with the '50s, and the idea that the audience needed to be told that Indy is no longer in the 1930s (as if we needed to be told over and over again!)

Right from the start we have the music and the hot rod, which is like Lucas' homage to his own American Grafitti. Mutt dressed as Brando complete with the cap just looked like a camp parody, and is probably the image that ruined him as a character from me. From the moment I saw him I wanted him out of the film.

Looking in hindsight now, I think that Lucas was shoe-horning his personal obsession into an Indy movie. Like killing two birds with one stone: giving the world another Indy outing, whilst also indulging his own love of the 1950s.

We may have Spielberg to thank for keeping KOTCS as on track as it was. If Spielberg hadn't been keeping Lucas on a short leash, we would have seen the full-blown Indiana Jones versus the Saucer Men, in full B-Movie mode.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:58 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Looking in hindsight now, I think that Lucas was shoe-horning his personal obsession into an Indy movie. Like killing two birds with one stone: giving the world another Indy outing, whilst also indulging his own love of the 1950s.

Yeah, "George, we all get it, you like the 50's, and you like space stuff". Luckily, I think (hope) that he can't cram much more of that stuff in another IJ film. Whether or not he's got it out of his system, these elements can't be milked for much more mileage than he's already gotten into this franchise. Thankfully. Now we as fans, and the trio as creators can all get down to business and get things rolling again. All we are waiting on is GL to have his list of "must haves" and hire a writer. Somebody tell him that the clock is ticking for f***'s sake!
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:12 AM   #135
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Yeah, "George, we all get it, you like the 50's, and you like space stuff". Luckily, I think (hope) that he can't cram much more of that stuff in another IJ film. Whether or not he's got it out of his system, these elements can't be milked for much more mileage than he's already gotten into this franchise. Thankfully. Now we as fans, and the trio as creators can all get down to business and get things rolling again. All we are waiting on is GL to have his list of "must haves" and hire a writer. Somebody tell him that the clock is ticking for f***'s sake!

The clock is definitely ticking, and the saving factor of KOTCS was that, from my personal viewpoint, the character of Indy himself (as portrayed by Harrison) was still very much intact. His character is preserved and consistent with the original trilogy, whilst the body itself may be less well preserved, so there's still the opportunity to see another legitimate chapter in the chronology of Indy's life.

However, by the time Indiana Jones V does emerge, Indy will no doubt be in the 1960s, so I hope George won't start to get obsessional abnout telling the audience they're in another decade now. It could so easily go down the Austin Powers route (which was good for comedy, but not so good for Indy).
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:54 AM   #136
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So you think Indy in the 1960s would be a bad idea
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Old 03-27-2010, 08:15 AM   #137
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So you think Indy in the 1960s would be a bad idea

It would really depend on the quality of the story itself. With KOTCS George was being self-indulgent with his love of the '50s, whereas the original three films were quite naturally set in the 1930s. Indy V will no doubt be 1960+, and George will be in danger of describing the 1960s to us. To avoid that I'd like to see Indy taken out of civilization, and its all-too obvious cultural references, and put him into the wilderness where the period will be less evident. He also has to ditch his annoying son, and leave Marion at home.
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:29 PM   #138
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It would really depend on the quality of the story itself. With KOTCS George was being self-indulgent with his love of the '50s, whereas the original three films were quite naturally set in the 1930s. Indy V will no doubt be 1960+, and George will be in danger of describing the 1960s to us. To avoid that I'd like to see Indy taken out of civilization, and its all-too obvious cultural references, and put him into the wilderness where the period will be less evident. He also has to ditch his annoying son, and leave Marion at home.

I agree, the actual time setting should simply be a back drop to the adventures rather than a focal point of the movie. Everything other than the intro/college scene of KOTCS could have been set in the 40's.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:17 PM   #139
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I actually think Lucas struck a good balance in the last film of showing how Indy's world had changed in the post WWII era 1950's and also how it had affected him. It was important to establish that new world that Indy now lives in. Once they leave America, it's Indy back in his element again. The first 3 films had the rise of Hitler and Nazism and the pre-communist world of Shanghai on display. Those movies say a lot about the 30's and the social and political climate of that time just as Crystal Skull does about its time period.

I get that we all want to just focus on Indy running around with his fedora and bullwhip taking on the bad guys but in order that adventure to work, it has to adhere to the circumstances of the time period our hero is in. I'm not saying we should have Indy going to Woodstock and getting high or something like that but the 60's were a turbulent time and a time of change for everyone including globe trotting archaeologists. Heck the whole field of archaeology experienced a big shift during the 60's. These are things we just can't ignore because we want cut to the chase.
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Old 03-27-2010, 01:20 PM   #140
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I'd like to see Indy taken out of civilization, and its all-too obvious cultural references, and put him into the wilderness where the period will be less evident.

Great idea, remote outposts that time forgot. Something more familiar to him/technology HE's familiar with. It would be interesting to see him rely on the time honored tested and true in a back and forth of some kind with the new.
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Old 03-27-2010, 05:33 PM   #141
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It was important to establish that new world that Indy now lives in. Those movies say a lot about the 30's and the social and political climate of that time just as Crystal Skull does about its time period.

This is one reason I like the mushroom cloud so much. Even though Lucas and Spielberg obviously got carried away with playing in the 50s, Indy himself never seems that phased by it. He's as oblivious to the culture of Arnie's diner as he was to the culture that surrounded him in the previous films.

And why shouldn't he be? We may notice how drastic the changes are, but for Indy, they've slowly crept up on him. The exception is the mushroom cloud, which provides a stark reminder that he's quickly being forced into a completely new age.

I'm not convinced that the series needs to leap into the 60s, though. They've already established a new time period for the character and can easily have a few more adventures within that world.
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:40 PM   #142
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They've already established a new time period for the character and can easily have a few more adventures within that world.

That's a pretty sound solution to the 60's dilemma
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:16 PM   #143
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If he's wedged so tight into the fridge, then the landing would have the same effect as dropping him in a fridge from several floors up. Such a landing would've been fatal (he would be unable to position himself or brace for the fall, or anything else as he is just a passenger dropping to the ground).

A more realistic way to illustrate this is if the fridge jumped a few feet at the initial blast and then slid along the ground at high speed crash through everything and past the bad guys' car alongside. That way, he'd survive, but this immediately would make it too similar to Last Crusade's plane/car-tunnel sequence. Though come to think of it, Indy and the bad guys swapping roles from the last movie - would'nt be too bad.

I don't have too much problem with the fridge but it does seem a bit far fetched, about slightly more than the mine cart jump.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:31 PM   #144
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NO HF INDY PAST JFK's DEATH, IT CAN'T BE DONE.
Think about it
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:41 AM   #145
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NO HF INDY PAST JFK's DEATH, IT CAN'T BE DONE.
Think about it

The worrying thing is, considering Uncle George's recent state of mind, is that it could be done.

He might end up having to escape from a napalmed jungled in Vietnam.

Or even find himself on the run from Agents Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, White and Orange (The 'Rainbow Herbicides', not characters from Reservoir Dogs).

It could make his fridge experience seem like a walk in the park.



Just don't make me defend the fridge again. That was one tough defence!
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:39 AM   #146
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The worrying thing is, considering Uncle George's recent state of mind, is that it could be done.

He might end up having to escape from a napalmed jungled in Vietnam.

Or even find himself on the run from Agents Pink, Green, Purple, Blue, White and Orange (The 'Rainbow Herbicides', not characters from Reservoir Dogs).

It could make his fridge experience seem like a walk in the park.



Just don't make me defend the fridge again. That was one tough defence!

Now THERE'S an awesome idea! Indiana Jones and the Reservoir Dogs! Instant badassery.

And, for the record, I still defend the fridge scene as being plausible within the Indy universe.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:07 AM   #147
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Now THERE'S an awesome idea! Indiana Jones and the Reservoir Dogs! Instant badassery.

I once proposed the idea that Tarantino should direct Indy V...

Quote:
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And, for the record, I still defend the fridge scene as being plausible within the Indy universe.

Then we will stand back to back, my friend, and fight off the ravenous hordes of naysayers!
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:58 AM   #148
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I once proposed the idea that Tarantino should direct Indy V...



Then we will stand back to back, my friend, and fight off the ravenous hordes of naysayers!

I got my whip ready for any foolish enough to dare attack us! And a Tarantino-directed Indy flick would be NUTS.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:52 PM   #149
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the fridge was made of lead. lead blocks radiation. works for me.
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:30 PM   #150
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What country currently conducts nuclear tests? Maybe Mythbusters could get permission to get their hands on an old similar fridge, stick a crash test dummy in it and imitate this most contentious of scenes? And I want geiger counters used as well! Is there a website listing the next nuclear detonation session and do they take bookings?
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