Lol - I thought you were more discerning than Iron Man?
Call it a guilty pleasure if you must...
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
To your question. It depends on what your definition of "good" is... and wether or not it's relative to what it's being compared with. I'd say that both Iron Man and KOTCS are expensive, well manufactured 'Hollywood' movies... both hugely disposable, neither of which specifically stir the imagination nor push the boundaries of contemporary cinema (even in relation to their specific genre and the mindless drivel that comes out of Hollywood).
I agree with what you've written. In context of Redinight's post/comparison, Iron Man was a better product. Indy's brother hits what high notes there are:
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
..while just a man in a mechanical suit, is still a superhero. Indy is an action hero. The world of Tony Stark presupposes a reality that is obviously science fiction. Indy's reality is more like ours.
...the Indy of KOTCS rides the fridge without a scratch, and remains unscathed until Dovenchenko's fist in the Ant fight hits him apparently with more force than an atomic blast. By then of course, we don't believe any of it anyway.
Stark survives some unbelievable stuff, but he's not an everyman. He's a billionaire superhero that holds conversations with his computer, operates on himself, and flies around in a metal suit.
Indy's more like us than Stark is.
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
...I actually find the churn out of lavish interpretations of Marvel comics a lot more insidious, unimaginative and cynical (especially Iron Man 2) than the output from Lucas/Spielberg and Ford... but maybe I'm being too generous.
The appeal is rooted in witnessing how they deal with the material. The latest adaptation, not only of medium, but it's modern sensibilities was a success, Skull did not fare as well. The GI Joe film is worthy of your bile, vile, but Iron Man brings more to the table...it has a more human story, and takes the time to tell it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I think KOTCS at it's worst is the failing/tiring bast*rd child of the original movie. Iron Man (and its sequel) is an invention designed to be a cash grab from the off... made to appeal to 30/40 year old man children and devoid of any real imagination. There are enough intelligent people involved in the making of Iron Man for it to be at least superficially engaging/watchable, but lets not kid ourselves that in the world of cinema/culture, Iron Man is no more significant than a greasy fry is in the world of international cuisine.
I think Crystal Skull may be that greasy fry, but I'd give Iron Man crusty mashed potatoes over my shepherds pie.
I wasn't talking Culture/Cinema but I'm interested in your list (whatever length) of the best in Cinema/Culture.
Comic Book movies are trash. They are all very generic, heartless, uninteresting, stories that are retold with different names and situations. Names like Tony Stark and Peter Parker and the situation is almost always a science project gone wrong or used differently.... Not one comic book movie will be remembered as compared to Indiana Jones. The stories are stuff of cheap comics, because that's what they are. Talk about formulaic... All the characters are the same, they have a Marvel or DC counter part and who cares which came first? They are gaudy extravaganzas that fall flat because they are pretentious self absorbed stories that bank on people with little imagination to accept them as something worth watching. They are like comics, you look em over and your mom gets tired of the pile and they end up in the trash. They are similar to Scify original movies with little to no intent to inspire or impress because the next film is all ready in the works... The film makers simply ask which character is next?
The visual work for the suits looked more glaringly fake than anything in Skull too. Oh yeah suits. Yeah cause the villain built a suit to battle the good guy suit because...ugh who cares.
Comic Book movies are trash. They are all very generic, heartless, uninteresting, stories that are retold with different names and situations. Names like Tony Stark and Peter Parker and the situation is almost always a science project gone wrong or used differently.... Not one comic book movie will be remembered as compared to Indiana Jones. The stories are stuff of cheap comics, because that's what they are. Talk about formulaic... All the characters are the same, they have a Marvel or DC counter part and who cares which came first? They are gaudy extravaganzas that fall flat because they are pretentious self absorbed stories that bank on people with little imagination to accept them as something worth watching. They are like comics, you look em over and your mom gets tired of the pile and they end up in the trash. They are similar to Scify original movies with little to no intent to inspire or impress because the next film is all ready in the works... The film makers simply ask which character is next?
The visual work for the suits looked more glaringly fake than anything in Skull too. Oh yeah suits. Yeah cause the villain built a suit to battle the good guy suit because...ugh who cares.
Turn into the skid...
Yeah, Mutt swinging through the trees like Peter Parker was much less glaringly fake then ANYTHING in Iron Man.
Yeah, Mutt swinging through the trees like Peter Parker was much less glaringly fake then ANYTHING in Iron Man.
For love of God, shut the hell up!
Oh, my!! How could I forget the one shot that destroyed everyone's hopes and dreams for the new Indy film? Of course it looked fake.... well, no maybe not as fake as a robot suit through an entire film. I must of hit a touchy spot for some Iron Man fans, I wasn't aware of me skidding all over, but I'm back on track now. Thank You.
Oh, my!! How could I forget the one shot that destroyed everyone's hopes and dreams for the new Indy film? Of course it looked fake.... well, no maybe not as fake as a robot suit through an entire film. I must of hit a touchy spot for some Iron Man fans, I wasn't aware of me skidding all over, but I'm back on track now. Thank You.
Let's see, The Dark Knight is mediocre, Iron Man is trash, generic, heartless, uninteresting...
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 2,923
While I find the Ironman argument against KOTCS at least a new one, it's also like comparing why an apple is better than say, an orange yo-yo. Aside from being summer blockbuster franchises, they are so different from each other in form, genre, intent, and character that it's like saying that since Andrew Dice Clay and I share a birthdate (which is true) that we should also be more similar to each other. Despite us having a separate pedigree and circle of influence. Now if you want to claim superiority over KOTCS on a more level playing field, there's an argument to be made for another film. That is, if there is really a need to shoehorn a debate on the similarities between dissimilar films.
Let's see, The Dark Knight is mediocre, Iron Man is trash, generic, heartless, uninteresting...
...but the prequels and Skull are what? Amazing?
Yes!!!! That is what I think... You don't have to agree and you won't of course. I only brought up Iron Man for the purpose of comparing the fact that Indy and Tony went through a similar experience....(flying into the air in a metal contraption and falling down hard with both surviving miraculously unscathed) and no one called out nuking the fridge on Iron Man....
I just find that people are unfairly and overly critical of anything Lucas does anymore and I can't understand why... Fans of Indy and SW are on these sites because he became a successful filmmaker and is still making it happen... I would really like him to move on now, beyond Indy and SW and do some of the other movies he planned on doing (they wouldn't likely be franchises) so he would not have a fan base turn on him.
Comic Book movies are trash. They are all very generic, heartless, uninteresting, stories that are retold with different names and situations. Names like Tony Stark and Peter Parker and the situation is almost always a science project gone wrong or used differently.... Not one comic book movie will be remembered as compared to Indiana Jones. The stories are stuff of cheap comics, because that's what they are. Talk about formulaic... All the characters are the same, they have a Marvel or DC counter part and who cares which came first? They are gaudy extravaganzas that fall flat because they are pretentious self absorbed stories that bank on people with little imagination to accept them as something worth watching. They are like comics, you look em over and your mom gets tired of the pile and they end up in the trash. They are similar to Scify original movies with little to no intent to inspire or impress because the next film is all ready in the works... The film makers simply ask which character is next?
The visual work for the suits looked more glaringly fake than anything in Skull too. Oh yeah suits. Yeah cause the villain built a suit to battle the good guy suit because...ugh who cares.
The appeal is rooted in witnessing how they deal with the material. The latest adaptation, not only of medium, but it's modern sensibilities was a success, Skull did not fare as well.
If you mean that Iron Man was specifically designed to appeal to a more ‘modern audience’ than KOTCS was, I totally agree with you. KOTCS suffered from being neither one nor the other.... "old school" or "cutting edge"? It didn't seem to know. However, Iron Man is a great example of how modern summer fare is further becoming “all fur coat and no knickers” i.e. Iron Man’s shiny and immaculate exterior hides the reality that there is little going on beneath the surface… and despite alluding to hidden depths… it’s really just yet another glossy movie built around explosions, nice tech/gadgets, good looking subordinate women… and with the predictable rock soundtrack (pushed up to 11).
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
I wasn't talking Culture/Cinema but I'm interested in your list (whatever length) of the best in Cinema/Culture.You'll never walk alone...
I wouldn’t be so asinine to produce a list… but for the sake of the debate I’d say that Star Wars and Raiders (latterly The Lord of the Rings and Batman movies) are a suitable benchmark for an example of ‘Hollywood’ cinema that transcend the genre to become something more culturally significant. Movies such as Iron Man, KOTCS and X-Men are not as significant and are much closer to each other, in terms of relative quality, than they are to the likes of the aforementioned Star Wars and Raiders (IMHO)… hence I see very little distinction (as far as quality goes) between the likes of Iron Man and KOTCS.
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Originally Posted by Sharkey
Let's see, The Dark Knight is mediocre, Iron Man is trash, generic, heartless, uninteresting...
...but the prequels and Skull are what? Amazing?
I think he probably means they are no worse than…
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Originally Posted by Indy's brother
While I find the Ironman argument against KOTCS at least a new one, it's also like comparing why an apple is better than say, an orange yo-yo...
Apologies but I can’t agree. They are comparable in that they are largely fantastical action hero/superhero driven movies. TOD and KOTCS are as about as 'comic book' as movies get. If Indiana Jones (and the movies) can’t be compared with the likes of Iron Man, James Bond and Batman… whom can we compare him to? George Smiley? Robert Langdon?
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 2,923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
Apologies but I can’t agree. They are comparable in that they are largely fantastical action hero/superhero driven movies. TOD and KOTCS are as about as 'comic book' as movies get. If Indiana Jones (and the movies) can’t be compared with the likes of Iron Man, James Bond and Batman… whom can we compare him to? George Smiley? Robert Langdon?
Fot modern adventure movies, yes, Robert Langdon, Rick O'Connell, Benjamin Gates, Ben Finnegin, Dirk Pitt, Or even Lara Croft are more comparable. Of course, these characters and their respective films owe their very existence to Indy, much as Indy owes his existence to the many films that inspired his character. Indiana Jones, while being an amalgamation of other source material himself, is kind in a class by himself. Which is why comparisons of him to other characters and franchises that exist in other genres is a sticky mess. You could do it, but why? If you look hard enough, you could make other arguments that exist but also have little merit. Like for example, Corporal Jake Sully in Avatar deals with a misunderstood alien race and must fight and evil military force in a jungle environment, yet nobody complained about there being aliens in that film.....It's an intentionally ridiculous argument. These films were not meant to be viewed in the same way as each other. Just like Ironman and KOTCS weren't meant to be put side-by-side for any reason. Were any one of these popcorn films better than the other? Again we find ourselves in the arena of subjective debate. Avatar made more money than KOTCS and was slammed much less. But I hated it. Does that mean that I think there was no redeeming value in Avatar? No. By saying I liked KOTCS more, does that mean that I believe KOTCS was flawlessly executed? Of course not. How does Ironman stack up to these two? Who gives a crap, the point is that it's a meaningless exercise.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 7,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redinight421
Comic Book movies are trash.
Hear! hear! Maybe not all of them are trash ("Superman" 1978) but it amazes me to see how much love and large appeal there is for all-things-comic-book-superheroes amongst the Indy-fan crowd with only a select few interested in adventure films/books. Comes with the geek territory, I guess...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redinight421
I just find that people are unfairly and overly critical of anything Lucas does anymore and I can't understand why...
I've been disappointed with Lucas ever since he brought Ewoks into the "Star Wars" saga back in '83 but that has never stopped me from admiring him & his work. What bothers me more is the amount of people who slam him for EVERY silly element in "Skull" as if he were automatically guilty. (For example: Weren't the prairie dogs Spielberg's idea?)
----
Since this is a thread about NUKED FRIDGES and not drivel about superhero movies...
After the fridge gets nuked, it would have been a nice detail to show it as a melted rectangle of lead rather than just a charred version of the proper thing. Heck, even the logo on the door survived the explosion!
Hear! hear! Maybe not all of them are trash ("Superman" 1978) but it amazes me to see how much love and large appeal there is for all-things-comic-book-superheroes amongst the Indy-fan crowd with only a select few interested in adventure films/books. Comes with the geek territory, I guess...
Okay, I'll let that one slide, cos it's you, Stoo! (And only some super-heroes are cool. There's a lot of dull naff ones!)
And because I agree with this:
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Originally Posted by Stoo
I've been disappointed with Lucas ever since he brought Ewoks into the "Star Wars" saga back in '83 but that has never stopped me from admiring him & his work. What bothers me more is the amount of people who slam him for EVERY silly element in "Skull" as if he were automatically guilty. (For example: Weren't the prairie dogs Spielberg's idea?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
After the fridge gets nuked, it would have been a nice detail to show it as a melted rectangle of lead rather than just a charred version of the proper thing. Heck, even the logo on the door survived the explosion!
And Indy melted to a rectangle inside as well!
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Trivia question: Which company made the fridge?
The advert in The Lost Journal was a Wizard. ("Gotta get one of these. Looks pretty durable.")
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 2,923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Since this is a thread about NUKED FRIDGES and not drivel about superhero movies...
After the fridge gets nuked, it would have been a nice detail to show it as a melted rectangle of lead rather than just a charred version of the proper thing. Heck, even the logo on the door survived the explosion!
Thankfully back on topic.
I was just discussing last night the many ways that the fridge scene could have worked better, if it absolutely had to be in the movie (which it apparently did). What if the fridge were actually damaged. Or if Indy had suffered some kind of injury as a result. Or after being shot a mile through the air and bouncing 20 times, it opens and regular food items fall out, then show the fridge that Indy was in buried in a ravine, cracked open a bit with Indy crawling out of it. The execution is what killed this as a scene/gag. Steven took it too far, which of course is my long way towards stating the old "jumping the shark" argument against it.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
...then I'd posit that...
You'd posit, would you? Blah blah blah...How you do love to ramble, Vile!
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Okay, I'll let that one slide, cos it's you, Stoo! (And only some super-heroes are cool. There's a lot of dull naff ones!)
How about this: "The Dark Knight" sucks!
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The advert in The Lost Journal was a Wizard. ("Gotta get one of these. Looks pretty durable.")
Nice attempt, Smiffy, but sorry, please try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
I was just discussing last night the many ways that the fridge scene could have worked better, if it absolutely had to be in the movie (which it apparently did). What if the fridge were actually damaged. Or if Indy had suffered some kind of injury as a result. Or after being shot a mile through the air and bouncing 20 times, it opens and regular food items fall out, then show the fridge that Indy was in buried in a ravine, cracked open a bit with Indy crawling out of it. The execution is what killed this as a scene/gag. Steven took it too far, which of course is my long way towards stating the old "jumping the shark" argument against it.
I agree that Indy should have sustained some kind of injury but no food would've fallen out because he cleared the entire fridge before getting in. (Though the Heinz ketchup bottle was worth keeping.)
Being a fan of "Happy Days", it was surprising to find that 'Jumping the Shark' was already a common term by the time the internet started to take off in the '90s. Yes, the episode in question was crap but it was strange to find that people had coined a phrase about it. Now, it is permanently fixed within the lexicon of internet jargon...
Awhile back, someone made (and tried to sell) a "Nuke the Fridge" T-shirt. What kind of a disgruntled fan would buy (or even wear) that?
Location: In the Map Room playing with a laser pointer
Posts: 2,923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
I agree that Indy should have sustained some kind of injury but no food would've fallen out because he cleared the entire fridge before getting in
I guess I didn't explain the idea clearly. I meant that we would be intended to assume that Indy was in the crashing fridge, but that it was in fact a duplicate fridge from another blown-up house, that was in fact full of food, and never had Indy in it. We would expect to see him tumble out, and wonder how he could have survived it. Instead the food falls out, perhaps including an opened tin of red herring. Then we would see him get out of his fridge elsewhere, creating a more believable scenario by not really being explained in such visual detail. Kind of an extension of the cliff-hanger type gag: seeing the crashing fridge, "Well how is he going to survive that?" to "Oh he didn't, that wasn't his fridge."
...because fridges aren't made to the same high specification any more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Being a fan of "Happy Days", it was surprising to find that 'Jumping the Shark' was already a common term by the time the internet started to take off in the '90s. Yes, the episode in question was crap but it was strange to find that people had coined a phrase about it. Now, it is permanently fixed within the lexicon of internet jargon...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Awhile back, someone made (and tried to sell) a "Nuke the Fridge" T-shirt. What kind of a disgruntled fan would buy (or even wear) that?
I was wondering what company made the fridge as well. I found a Westinghouse fridge of the same style in the basement of the community theatre the other night and couldn't help in taking a gander. Those things were so cool!!! This particular one had a butter keeper that was hidden in a secret compartment behind the thermostat dials. I noticed the inside was that light green similar to the one in the film. I wonder if the fridge was modified for the film? Because, I sure couldn't see a man fitting in the one I looked at, although, it had a freezer too...
I have the sideshow exclusive Indy with the fridge which is a real nifty display piece. Not worth the full price in opinion. I can't wait to get the Hot Toys Indy, Raiders costume was always the best!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
How about this: "The Dark Knight" sucks!
And to think I actually thought you were a cool dude, Stoo...I'll never forgive you for this!
And Montana is right. No matter how much you may hate the actual fridge moment, the entire teaser opening before that was perfect Indiana Jones thrills.
And to think I actually thought you were a cool dude, Stoo...I'll never forgive you for this!
Well, it will take a fair bit of forgiving.
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Originally Posted by kongisking
And Montana is right. No matter how much you may hate the actual fridge moment, the entire teaser opening before that was perfect Indiana Jones thrills.
The whole scene up until the landing. It's the landing that kills it, just as it should have killed Indy.
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Posts: 7,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy's brother
I guess I didn't explain the idea clearly. I meant that we would be intended to assume that Indy was in the crashing fridge, but that it was in fact a duplicate fridge from another blown-up house, that was in fact full of food, and never had Indy in it. We would expect to see him tumble out, and wonder how he could have survived it. Instead the food falls out, perhaps including an opened tin of red herring. Then we would see him get out of his fridge elsewhere, creating a more believable scenario by not really being explained in such visual detail. Kind of an extension of the cliff-hanger type gag: seeing the crashing fridge, "Well how is he going to survive that?" to "Oh he didn't, that wasn't his fridge."
Ah, I see what you're saying now and it brings up another matter. When the fridge is flying through the air, they should have added more stuff riding alongside in the blast wave. Until other debris is shown on the ground, it looks like the fridge is the only thing that survives.
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Originally Posted by Redinight421
Those things were so cool!!!
Let's hope so! As for your other comments, I think light green (or white) was the default interior colour in those days. When I was younger we had old one (an Admiral) at our summer country house and was definitely big enough for a man to fit inside. It was HUGE!
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Okay, it was a King Cool refrigerator.
Bingo! You win an ice cube! There is a King Cool Refrigeration & Air Conditioning in British Columbia, Canada. I wonder if it's the same company?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kongisking
And to think I actually thought you were a cool dude, Stoo...I'll never forgive you for this!
And Montana is right. No matter how much you may hate the actual fridge moment, the entire teaser opening before that was perfect Indiana Jones thrills.
Aw, Kong! It's just my opinion. So, in your eyes, I've lost my coolness because I don't like the clown movie? (sniff)
Anyway, I have NEVER said that I hate the fridge scene! I love the whole opening of the film, including Doom Town sequence, and was only mentioning what might have made it better. The gag is utterly ridiculous but it doesn't put my knickers in a twist like it does to some other people.
Location: The sun is shining a little stronger. Time to hit the road and drift southbound.
Posts: 3,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Ah, I see what you're saying now and it brings up another matter. When the fridge is flying through the air, they should have added more stuff riding alongside in the blast wave. Until other debris is shown on the ground, it looks like the fridge is the only thing that survives.
I agree with you, Stoo.
I loved the setup to that scene, but the actual fridge landing was a bit bland and empty to me. It lacked a certain oomph factor.
Like others have said - showing the fridge almost destroyed and smoking from the intense heat would have helped. Also, as you just stated, they could have showed other debris flying with the fridge. Maybe even a flying, flaming dummy for laughs instead of the CGI golphers?
Indiana should have been blooded and ragged when he fought his way out from the charred ruins also.
Maybe not all of them are trash ("Superman" 1978) but it amazes me to see how much love and large appeal there is for all-things-comic-book-superheroes amongst the Indy-fan crowd with only a select few interested in adventure films/books.
Comes with the geek territory, I guess...
