Seriously? Joe, you always surprise me. I am being begged to ask...Why?
Angelina Jolie?
Seriously, she is in top form -- but I really like the film for two reasons.
First, the Pitt/Jolie interaction is the nearest thing to Tracey/Hepburn this generation has seen (he says sounding like Attila).
And, two, I get a chuckle out of the whole overt depiction of the chasm between the sexes. The consumerism I could do without -- but I laugh every time at the over-the-top botched assassination scene where Pitt climbs out of the dune buggy. What's he listening to? Poison?
Not to mention, Vince Vaughn schtik wasn't yet old and busted at the time of the film.
I wish my reasons were more clever . . . .
On another front, I just realized, I missed The Hours in my rankings above. I'd slot it in at 16 and would push Dark Knight down a notch. And I'd include Away We Go and Walk the Line in Worthy films.
Where's your list?
Last edited by Joe Brody : 01-07-2010 at 10:33 PM.
Come come now, that's a slippery slope argument, you know that. By that reasoning, Transformers II should make the list for Megan Fox
I am appalled at even suggesting such tripe, btw
Quote:
First, the Pitt/Jolie interaction is the nearest thing to Tracey/Hepburn this generation has seen..
They did have a good bit of chemistry, but I felt that a good deal of it was contrived. I'll blame the director for that, and the inability to capture the scenes with a sort of spontaneity; though I am sure that that tension was intentional to magnify the emotional effect of the 'dying-delusional' relationship.
Quote:
And, two, I get a chuckle out of the whole overt depiction of the chasm between the sexes. The consumerism I could do without -- but I laugh every time at the over-the-top botched assassination scene where Pitt climbs out of the dune buggy. What's he listening to? Poison?
I guess I'll call that....camp. And too agree it was, if nothing else...entertaining. I smugly smiled too at Jolie's clan, and their attempts at comfort and support for a divorcee.
Quote:
Where's your list?
In true Hebrew fashion, the gentile spent much of the decade bonding with my wife. This list is incomplete as I didn't see many films. (Though in some way that 'kept' me from tainting the list with 'bad' ones:
I'll reserve the right to comment as to why, for later, but these I felt compelled to list because of how they imparted the 'story' to me, either by the medium of film and it's innovations, or by it's sheer simplicity of 'telling' a good story.
after all, there are only 36 of them
As subjective as they come, though repeatability is a big requirement of mine, in much of these:
*Training day
*memento
*The Departed
*Gladiator
*Batman Begins
*Finding Nemo
*King Kong
*Saw
*AI
*Collateral
*Castaway
*Casino Royale
*Dogville
*Hurt Locker (a late entry)
*Kung Fu Hustle (Yep...made the decade list)
Come come now, that's a slippery slope argument, you know that. By that reasoning, Transformers II should make the list for Megan Fox
Point taken. But I'll bet given her present course and manners (or lack thereof) that Fox will not age as well as Jolie. Stuff like that colors my perceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
They did have a good bit of chemistry, but I felt that a good deal of it was contrived.
Haven't subsequent events proved otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
I guess I'll call that....camp.
That's the word I was looking for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
And too agree it was, if nothing else...entertaining. I smugly smiled too at Jolie's clan, and their attempts at comfort and support for a divorcee.
My favorite is on the male side where Pitt goes to the office and the secretary/surrogate mom lectures him about keeping his tickets and things straight.
Comments on your picks (especially since I agree with you that re-watchability is a key criteria:
The Departed -- I can't stand Jack Nicholson in this film. I would've cast Fred Ward or someone along those lines for that part.
Gladiator -- I love the beginning but always lose interest by the ending
Batman Begins - cringe.
Saw -- I have yet to see
Dogville -- I've seen this on a few 'best' lists -- but I don't like it despite being a Kidman fan
Hurt Locker -- this one that I have yet to see that I have high hopes for and expect it to make the list
...especially since I agree with you that re-watchability is a key criteria
Re-watchability adds further complications, although after going through my list again, they're all movies I would sit through, (start to finish) again or record on my DVR.
Buy them on DVD? ...another good criteria I think, but the list dwindles.
Pay to see them as a big screen re-release, well another snip to the list.
Mr and Mrs Smith? I caught myself leering at the "powder and paint makes her what she aint Angelina" as I flipped through the channels but for a movie of that type, Hitman has been my choice for multiple viewings...so far.
Casino Royale
Taken
Collateral
Million Dollar Baby
Gran Torino
Letters from iwo jima
Minority Report
Kill Bill Vol1 and Vol2
Sin City
Inglorious Basterds
The Lord of the Rings trilogy
Hot Fuzz
Up
WALL-E
Ratatouille
Monsters Inc
There are many more I'd like to add,but these are the ones I can watch over and over again.
Hitman has been my choice for multiple viewings...so far.
You might wish to clarify which of the movies of that title you're meaning.
If you actually are referring to the most prominent one, it's kind of amusing actually. Not that I'd be calling it a bad movie per se, but I figured one of the biggest no-nos in this field is to say that you've actually got a video game adaptation to grow onto you.
I found myself doing a lot more stuff than just watching movies in this decade... and when I did, they were bit on the older side. So I might not have enough "acceptedly great ones" to comprise a list. I'll probably give my list for the gone decade somewhere around 2020, heh.
If you actually are referring to the most prominent one, it's kind of amusing actually. Not that I'd be calling it a bad movie per se, but I figured one of the biggest no-nos in this field is to say that you've actually got a video game adaptation to grow onto you.
I am. It's not on my list of "Best ofs" and was offered as a more interesting film when considering something like Mr and Mrs Smith, (besides her pouty quick cuts of course).
Come now, surely you can name a couple! The list has no minimum...and it does span TEN years.
In these decade lists, I hate how the new faves push the old ones to the guardrail... Alas, I shall not cast any stones.
Ocean’s Eleven
Pitch Black
Doubt
The Road
Casino Royale
Wall-E
Zombieland
Hot Fuzz
(500) Days of Summer
3:10 to Yuma (gotta have a western on there. Might have put Appaloosa. But then that'd be two Viggo pictures on the same list... That's more of Joe's job.)
First of all, I should have labeled my picks as "my favorite" rather than "best." I'm not really qualified to judge actual merit. But, hey, is that really any different than the Oscars? I'm just upfront about it.
Second, I was trying to be both egalitarian and proletarian. Even if DO I like some of the non-Happy-Meal-toy films of the last ten years, you'll have to beat a confession out of ME. I'm not one of THOSE people.
Recap (with explanation) * Ocean’s Eleven - Best mainstream, high-wattage star flick (Seriously, the slickest, sexiest script in a recent memory. Probably one of the hardest things in the galaxy to write. The two misbegotten sequels should have underlined this in case we'd missed it the first time.) * Pitch Black - Best sci-fi * Doubt - Best pretentious film snob movie * The Road - Best adaptation (film snob runner-up) * Casino Royale - Best summer action * Wall-E - Best family * Zombieland - Best horror (I know it's actually a comedy. But I don't really do horror... ) * Hot Fuzz - Best comedy * (500) Days of Summer - Best rom-com (did there need to be a winner in this category? No. However, given that I'm married and have seen the entire filmographies of Meg Ryan and Sandra Bullock... When I actually say to myself "boy, I really enjoyed that" it stands out, ya know? Also, I think a rom-com that's clever, funny, and original would be like climbing Mount Everest without mittens). * 3:10 to Yuma - Best Western (with free continental breakfast)
[jokingly]You realize your categories (i.e., "rom-com" & "best adaptation") betray you as a covert pretension film snob? . . . who is just slumming it to not reveal himself as a pretension film snob.
Me? I'm guilty charged. I guess I wear my film snobbery on my sleeve . . . . but I would argue that The Incredibles beats Wall-e by a country mile in the family category.
Last edited by Joe Brody : 02-04-2010 at 08:38 PM.
Of course I'm slumming. This is the RAVEN after all.
Ha! Point taken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Incredibles vs. Wall-E: this is my recurring Pixar deathmatch... I love 'em both. But prove it to me, Joe...
"Why Incredibles is better than Wall-E..."
Go.
1. Narrative. Well when competing in the 'family' category, I'd argue the edge goes to the film that is actually about a family. On a related point, given the larger 'cast' of characters in the Incredibles, I'd argue that narratively, you have a deeper, more rewarding story. Think of all the varied characters that stay with you from the Incredibles -- that's an achievement.
2. Message. Wall-E is too preachy -- and man do preachy films burn me. The Incredibles' if-you-say-we're-all-special,-that's-just-another-way-of-saying-no-one-is statement is a little more biting (and to my thinking, more to your tastes) and solid social commentary -- and the family dysfunction/affection is very real. Whereas, in Wall-e all I get is that we're all evolving into big tubs of goo. Maybe true -- but it's all too ham-handed.
3. Humor. Cheap, throwaway argument: I laughed out loud more while watching The Incredibles vs. Wall-e.
1. Narrative. Well when competing in the 'family' category, I'd argue the edge goes to the film that is actually about a family. On a related point, given the larger 'cast' of characters in the Incredibles, I'd argue that narratively, you have a deeper, more rewarding story. Think of all the varied characters that stay with you from the Incredibles -- that's an achievement.
2. Message. Wall-E is too preachy -- and man do preachy films burn me. The Incredibles' if-you-say-we're-all-special,-that's-just-another-way-of-saying-no-one-is statement is a little more biting (and to my thinking, more to your tastes) and solid social commentary -- and the family dysfunction/affection is very real. Whereas, in Wall-e all I get is that we're all evolving into big tubs of goo. Maybe true -- but it's all too ham-handed.
3. Humor. Cheap, throwaway argument: I laughed out loud more while watching The Incredibles vs. Wall-e.
Also, Animation is a wash -- but I like the a lot of the 'sets' in the Incredibles and I'd give the Incredibles a slight edge in cool pop culture references (including the shots of populace like something out of a Rankin film).
Joe and ; now you got me thinking in a whole different direction. I am considering doing my "top 10 films that clearly indicate a bent to the Judeo Christian philosophy, though you might not think so" list now.....
PS. Throw my hat in on Incredibles over Wall-E. 2-1...now
I have to say that I'm on the side of Wall-E though. So that's 2-2 now....
As for Joe Body's points...
1. Does a family have to be the standard parents and kids nuclear family? Could Wall-E and EVE not be considered a family or the start of one? They even have the required pet cricket?
2. Message tken, allthough again it could be argued that if you are going to be making something that is going to be watched by millions of people it is part of your responsibilty to actually include a message and try to make the world a better place. And then taking the fact that people are stupid, better make the message obvious...
3. Personal taste. I thought Wall-E was funnier...
Slumming is just plain easier than keeping up my pinky-raising act to sit at the big kid’s table.
This point is the one that struck me... So I'm going to ignore your other pump fakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
2. Message. Wall-E is too preachy -- and man do preachy films burn me. The Incredibles' if-you-say-we're-all-special,-that's-just-another-way-of-saying-no-one-is statement is a little more biting (and to my thinking, more to your tastes) and solid social commentary -- and the family dysfunction/affection is very real. Whereas, in Wall-e all I get is that we're all evolving into big tubs of goo. Maybe true -- but it's all too ham-handed.
Whoa. An argument based on the obviousness/merit of the premise (or your interpretation of thereof)??? I’m going to argue that this tack is entirely subjective (especially in a Pixar vs Pixar matchup). What kind of moral you want your kids to go home with is more of a reflection of your personal philosophy/sensibilities than anything else.
In terms of actual premise identification/formulation... I think you’ve skirted a more obvious (“ham-handed” if you prefer ) message of The Incredibles for one that, though still present, I would argue is “next level.” Here’s my own take on a homiletic moment of the picture that I suppose I haven’t actually tied to the film’s PRIMARY conflict (only because I’m too lazy to identify it) but it is certainly well-connected to major story beats.
Quote:
BOB
I'm sorry. This is my fault. I've been a lousy father. Blind to what I have. So obsessed with being undervalued that I undervalued all of you...
.
.
.
BOB
So caught up in the past that I...You are my greatest adventure. And I almost missed it...
“You are my greatest adventure”???
Put down the deli platter, Joe.
To be fair, I probably did something similar with Wall-E. I bypassed the ground floor “green preach”. The message I got from the flick was more about the perils of maintaining the status quo (remember: Wall-E is the protagonist, not the tubby humans)... Also the consequences of abdicating responsibility and the ultimate emptiness of vicarious experience. (An interesting, if somewhat ironic, position for a film to take.)
Here I thought you were going to deploy a variation of your “Jolie Defense” for The Incredibles... “Dude, it’s got Samuel L. Jackson!”
Off topic: Joe, any comments on The Road? Since I saw it back in November, I must admit I’ve been wondering what you thought of it. I know we’ve never talked McCarthy... but you’re a well-read guy. (Wasn’t a stretch to imagine Cormac McCarthy posters up on the walls of your bedroom along with dreamy Viggo... )
Call 'em what you will -- but the other arguments are a bit more than a pump fake. Recall, this was your steel cage death match so I'd like to hear your counter to the arguments. I'll admit my claim that The Incredibles is funnier is entirely subjective -- but I'd bet The Incredible's joke count is higher. Given the extra characters, there's just a lot more active elements going on screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Whoa. An argument based on the obviousness/merit of the premise (or your interpretation of thereof)??? I’m going to argue that this tack is entirely subjective (especially in a Pixar vs Pixar matchup). What kind of moral you want your kids to go home with is more of a reflection of your personal philosophy/sensibilities than anything else.
My preference for the Pixar moral is subjective -- but as contemporary commentary, the film is ..... wait, I'm still trying to figure out your first statement. (see below).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
In terms of actual premise identification/formulation... I think you’ve skirted a more obvious (“ham-handed” if you prefer ) message of The Incredibles for one that, though still present, I would argue is “next level.”
I've got to disagree with you here. I'm talking about the Pixar moral -- not the central story/narrative. I agree with PaleHorse who long ago posted the list of all stories. Wall-E is a boy gets girl (Eve) story (with the Pixar moral/social criticism playing out in the background: we're all turning into tubs of goo and in doing so we destroyed Earth). The story in The Incredibles is man re-discovers family (with the Pixar social criticism against elevating normalcy and rewarding mediocrity). I'll take The Incredibles narrative/moral combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
To be fair, I probably did something similar with Wall-E. I bypassed the ground floor “green preach”. The message I got from the flick was more about the perils of maintaining the status quo (remember: Wall-E is the protagonist, not the tubby humans)... Also the consequences of abdicating responsibility and the ultimate emptiness of vicarious experience. (An interesting, if somewhat ironic, position for a film to take.)
I'm a literalist and sadly a ground level kinda guy. I don't see Wall-E as being stuck in the status quo. He didn't choose or make his environment. And doesn't he pretty much go after the girl without a look back? [I like your observation on the abdicating responsibility].
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Here I thought you were going to deploy a variation of your “Jolie Defense” for The Incredibles... “Dude, it’s got Samuel L. Jackson!”
Sadly, Jolie is not aging well -- motherhood has not been kind. It may be that she peaked in Mr & Mrs. Smith. . . . plus I'll never make the same argument with Samuel L. Jackson. The man is tired. The Incredibles may have been his last good rant ("Where's my supersuit!")
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Off topic: Joe, any comments on The Road? Since I saw it back in November, I must admit I’ve been wondering what you thought of it. I know we’ve never talked McCarthy... but you’re a well-read guy. (Wasn’t a stretch to imagine Cormac McCarthy posters up on the walls of your bedroom along with dreamy Viggo... )
Here's proof that I'm not a total Viggo junkie: I have yet to see The Road (I just hope it's not too Postman). Also, in my defense, I only watched that pony across the desert flic once -- but I admit to buying books from Mortensen's publishing house and I keep on trying to get my hands on Altriste (sp?))
Call 'em what you will -- but the other arguments are a bit more than a pump fake. Recall, this was your steel cage death match so I'd like to hear your counter to the arguments. I'll admit my claim that The Incredibles is funnier is entirely subjective -- but I'd bet The Incredible's joke count is higher. Given the extra characters, there's just a lot more active elements going on screen.
Very well. I shall counter. (Or at least explain why the defense didn’t go for these.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
1. Narrative. Well when competing in the 'family' category, I'd argue the edge goes to the film that is actually about a family.
Though this relates to my ranking of Wall-E as “best family film”... it doesn’t really tackle the “Incredibles VS Wall-E” question. But let’s go ahead and allow it. The question of “what constitutes a good family film?” (or “the best family” film, given that our goals are comparative) is certainly discussable. I think the possibilities for arguments, point-of-view and conclusions are vast. The topic is suitable for its own thread (and likely a few books and/or doctoral theses). I didn’t see a speedy resolution in sight. I don’t think the mere existence of a family as the main characters is enough to force out the competition. Surely you’re not ready to make room on the podium for Cheaper by the Dozen, the Game Plan, Imagine That, Spy Kids, The Pacifier... etc. etc. on the grounds that the primary characters are families?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
On a related point, given the larger 'cast' of characters in the Incredibles, I'd argue that narratively, you have a deeper, more rewarding story.
You’ve stated this. But I wouldn’t say you’ve argued it yet, counselor.
Incidentally, I disagree that larger cast = deeper, more rewarding story. If that were so, then every ensemble movie would be a great movie.
But perhaps I’m over-generalizing when I should be focusing on Incredibles VS Wall-E? Does a “deeper” (interesting criteria, given your eventual claim “a literalist and sadly a ground level kinda guy”. ) (which I don’t buy incidentally... but more on that later) story get told because there are more characters involved in the telling? Mind if I defer this for a little while and come back when we’re talking about meaning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
Think of all the varied characters that stay with you from the Incredibles -- that's an achievement.
No argument that Incredibles characters resonate. But Wall-E characters resonate with ME. But this isn’t a mere head count, is it? Or is there some sort of qualitative weighting? Weighting based on number of scenes or spoken lines?
So murky... I don’t think this argument is going anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
3. Humor. Cheap, throwaway argument: I laughed out loud more while watching The Incredibles vs. Wall-e.
If we equate laughs (both quantitative and qualitative) with the films stature... You might have a case. But since I don’t REALLY think you want worldwide Armageddon as I reorder “Best Film lists” with all the comedies at the top...
Even if we broaden the category to be “emotionally affecting” instead of merely “laughs” I still think this is going to be sticky.
Because I can say: I found Wall-E more emotionally affecting. Bang. Deadlock. (Hence the name.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
My preference for the Pixar moral is subjective -- but as contemporary commentary, the film is ..... wait, I'm still trying to figure out your first statement. (see below).
I shall explain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
In terms of actual premise identification/formulation... I think you’ve skirted a more obvious (“ham-fisted” if you prefer ) message of the Incredibles for one that, though still present, I would argue is “next level.”
I’m saying that there are several messages communicated by both films (and probably most better films, in general). I’m saying that the “most obvious” message may not be the actual message of the film. The way I’m using my “ground floor message” phrase, I mean: the most familiar, most expected, easiest to recognize at a distance. Again, I reiterate that just because the message is easy to come by that that does NOT make it the ACTUAL message of the piece. (This is akin to judging a book by its cover.)
So, in that regard... yes, I think the obvious message of Wall-E is one of ecological responsibility. That’s a very familiar message, we hear it everywhere. HOWEVER, I still don’t think that’s really the sum total of Wall-E if you honestly analyze it. (And when I say “analyze” I don’t mean wrangling with figurative or symbolic meanings. I’m taking about plain ol’ sit-up-in-your-chair-and-pay-attention literalism. More on that in sec.)
According to the same terminology, the obvious meaning of the Incredibles is about the value of family. I agree with you... Ultimately, much more important than “reduce, reuse, recycle.” Still doesn’t make it a new, fresh, non-preachy message (though you could argue that communicating a well-worn idea in an appealing way is hard and should get double-points. I could get behind that).
Where does that leave us? I propose that in terms of obvious meaning, we have a draw for originality, but Incredibles in the lead for value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
I've got to disagree with you here. I'm talking about the Pixar moral -- not the central story/narrative.
Please define “Pixar Moral”. Do mean this in a similar sense that I was using “ground floor meaning”? “The moral most in line with pop morality”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
I agree with PaleHorse who long ago posted the list of all stories. Wall-E is a boy gets girl (Eve) story (with the Pixar moral/social criticism playing out in the background: we're all turning into tubs of goo and in doing so we destroyed Earth).
.
.
.
I'm a literalist and sadly a ground level kinda guy. I don't see Wall-E as being stuck in the status quo. He didn't choose or make his environment. And doesn't he pretty much go after the girl without a look back? [I like your observation on the abdicating responsibility].
Yes, “boy gets girl” (“Plot #28: Obstacles to Love”, for those following along) is present in Wall-E. BUT I think reducing the whole story to THAT plot is well short of accurate. (Is this how you’d summarize Raiders of the Lost Ark as well???)
My proposal: the main story of Wall-E is one of rebellion. Don’t let that namby-pamby musical music throw you! Defiance. Stick-it-to-the-Man. F***ing-up the mainstream. As much about revolution as rock and roll ever has been. (Or in lit geek speak: Polti’s Plot #8: Revolt. Specifically: “Revolt of One Individual, Who Influences and Involves Others”)
Don’t believe me?
When we meet Wally, he’s alone. Doing what? Well, it would SEEM that he was just doing as the Man dictates... Or is he? Stockpiling his favorite items isn’t in keeping with BNL “directive” for him (as evidenced by Wally compacting his treasures in his rebooted “amnesiac” state at the end of the film). Okay, not really revolutionary, just slightly subversive.
Eve shows up. End of Wally’s lip service to the Man! No more garbage-compacting. Pretty soon, he’s corrupting straight-laced Eve into some non-directive activities.
Once aboard the Axiom (the Domain of the Man!), Wally’s role as rabble-rouser really takes off.
First, M-O... The script is brilliant. I’ll just post directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall-E Script
M-O stops short.
Notices Wally’s FILTHY TRACKS crossing his path.
ON M-O’S DISPLAY
Reads: “FOREIGN CONTAMINANT”
The tracks lead to the elevator.
M-O’s neurosis takes over.
Must clean dirt.
He makes a radical decision and...
...jumps off his line.
Next, Wally bumps into John and Mary, setting off their journey into real interaction, romance, rebellion (at the pool. “no splashing, no diving”), and ultimately action that benefits the community.
Next, the typing-bot. Small moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall-E Script
The typing-bot watches the transport enter the elevator.
Notices Wally hiding at the back.
Wally gives it a FRIENDLY WAVE as the doors close.
The elevator shoots up to the bridge.
The typing-bot looks at its hand.
Mimics Wally’s waving gesture.
Huh. Never done that before.
Tries it some more...
Next, the captain. The plant, of course, rocks his world. But that’s not exactly Wally’s doing and not really the change the puts the captain on the path to his showdown with the Autopilot. Here it is. Ready?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall-E Script
Wally innocently motors over to the Captain.
Shakes his hand.
WALLY
Wally.
Leaves a CLUMP OF DIRT in his palm.
The Captain stares at it.
That’s what provokes the Captain’s Wikipedia binge and gives him the desire to go back to Earth (indeed, do anything but follow the daily script).
(whoa. did you know there was a 10000 character count limit?)
Next, the jailbreak from the repair ward and Wally becomes the Rejects’ champion.
Here’s one of the most obvious visuals that reinforces my point about the script being rebellious (which gets repeated in case you miss it...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wall-E Script
Alarms sound.
SCREENS appear, displaying EVE AND WALLY’S IMAGE.
She appears to brandish her gun at camera.
Like Bonnie and Clyde.
Their faces now on every wall...
...passenger’s hover chair...
...cabin...
...hallway...
At this point, all the players are in place and moving toward open conflict with the forces of the Man and the ending... freedom from life on Autopilot, authentic experience, resumption of responsibility. And YES, BOY GETS GIRL!
; now you got me thinking in a whole different direction. I am considering doing my "top 10 films that clearly indicate a bent to the Judeo Christian philosophy, though you might not think so" list now.....
)
