Here's a thought: Indy tries to hijack the flying wing in "Raiders", but in the prequel "Temple of Doom" he doesn't know how to fly planes. By the time of "Last Crusade" Indy had some flying skill, but not landing ("Fly yes, land no!")
So did Indy seriously think that he could fly away with the ark but not so sure about able to land the plane (the flying wing!) in one piece?
[Granted there's no way that the writers are able to know what they were going to be writing in the prequel, but still that's an interesting thought. Indy trying to steal the flying wing still setups to an awesome fistfight]
Here's a thought: Indy tries to hijack the flying wing in "Raiders", but in the prequel "Temple of Doom" he doesn't know how to fly planes. By the time of "Last Crusade" Indy had some flying skill, but not landing ("Fly yes, land no!")
So did Indy seriously think that he could fly away with the ark but not so sure about able to land the plane (the flying wing!) in one piece?
[Granted there's no way that the writers are able to know what they were going to be writing in the prequel, but still that's an interesting thought. Indy trying to steal the flying wing still setups to an awesome fistfight]
I don't think Indy intended to fly it himself. Reading between the lines I expect he meant to force the pilot to fly to Britain. In the novelization Indy tells Marion, "When the Ark gets loaded, we'll already be on the plane."
There's room in the tunnel, between the cockpit and the tail gun for an uncomfortable, but possible journey for a third occupant.
In context of itself, I think we are to believe that Indy can fly the plane. In context of the saga (i.e. his comments in TLC), it' a bit of a gap/hole.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I don't think Indy intended to fly it himself. Reading between the lines I expect he meant to force the pilot to fly to Britain. In the novelization Indy tells Marion, "When the Ark gets loaded, we'll already be on the plane."
There's room in the tunnel, between the cockpit and the tail gun for an uncomfortable, but possible journey for a third occupant.
Hmm...It's been awhile since I've read the novel but that plan would've been scuttled once he discovered that the pilot was already in the plane. I always figured he meant to get rid of the pilot and then do some damage to the cockpit or puncture the tires with his jacknife. Anything to render flight inoperable.
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Originally Posted by Lonsome Drifter
And, let's not forget that he was making it up as he went along. Maybe it was spur of the moment thinking? He'd sort out the complications later!
Exactly. First priority was to stall for time and stop the plane from taking off.
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
In context of itself, I think we are to believe that Indy can fly the plane. In context of the saga (i.e. his comments in TLC), it' a bit of a gap/hole.
In the context of the saga, it's not that big of a hole if you consider the alternatives.
In the context of the film, I've never believed for a second that Indy is able to fly *that* plane. If he had tried to fly it, he probably would have crashed IMMEDIATELY! Without proper training, even an experienced pilot of that time would have great difficulty in an aircraft of such experimental design. No fuselage and 2 rear-based propellors? Yikes!
Hmm...It's been awhile since I've read the novel but that plan would've been scuttled once he discovered that the pilot was already in the plane. I always figured he meant to get rid of the pilot and then do some damage to the cockpit or puncture the tires with his jacknife. Anything to render flight inoperable.
The book doesn't elaborate, so I thought what his strategy might have been: get aboard and hide in the access tunnel with his gun trained on the pilot, wait for the Ark to be loaded, then direct the pilot to fly to England.
(England was where he told Marion to go once he left her to follow the U-Boat, primarily because there'd be no language barrier and no Nazis - well one of out of two wasn't too bad!)
The book doesn't elaborate, so I thought what his strategy might have been: get aboard and hide in the access tunnel with his gun trained on the pilot, wait for the Ark to be loaded, then direct the pilot to fly to England.
...or someplace along the route!
This was my impression too. "When they load the ark..."
Though Indy driving the wing down into camp and Marion strafing the bad guys might be too Bondian
In the novelization Indy tells Marion, "When the Ark gets loaded, we'll already be on the plane."
That line is in the movie, as well. I, too, figured that Indy would have forced the pilot to cooperate. Since Belloq and numerous of the important Germans would have recognized Indy if he had tried to take the pilot's place, it's doubtful he would have tried that. But, in film and in novel, the plan is not going to work, so there was no need to figure out all the details and explain them.
I assumed he meant they were going to stow themselves aboard or steal it.
As the film progressed I assumed they were going to steal it.
Agreed it's no quite consistant with his experience in TOD and Last Crusade but in TOD he was contemplating trying to fly the plane so perhaps he was, ahem....going to wing it? I think he was just going to do whatever it took to get the ark out of nazi hands, making it up as he went along. Acting first thinking later. I assume beimg dragged behind a truck was not his preferred method of travel either but the situation demanded it.
I suspect the idea was that Indy COULD fly in Raiders and did indeed intend to fly the Ark out, and that his flying prowess was changed in subsequent instalments without the writer's knowledge that this was contradictory.
However, even if he CAN'T fly, him wanting to subdue the pilot and figure out how to fly this thing after he does so fits in with his "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" nature.
So it just changes the meaning of the scene rather than making it redundant.
Food for thought here: if the full intention had been that Indy did know how to fly, would they have included A) Jock and B) the originally scripted element about the folks bailing from the airplane, leading to the original incarnation of the rubber raft sequence?
(Obviously, there's the matter of A) wanting a quick getaway and B) the plane being emptied of fuel to explain away these possibilities, but the former in particular suggest that, as scripted, the assumption would be that Indy did not fly himself.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbacca Jones
That line is in the movie, as well. I, too, figured that Indy would have forced the pilot to cooperate. Since Belloq and numerous of the important Germans would have recognized Indy if he had tried to take the pilot's place, it's doubtful he would have tried that. But, in film and in novel, the plan is not going to work, so there was no need to figure out all the details and explain them.
So, for me, no holes!
...and there you have it, folks! (Although, I disagree with your reasoning as to why Indy wouldn't have tried to take the pilot's place).
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Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
I suspect the idea was that Indy COULD fly in Raiders and did indeed intend to fly the Ark out,...
Not to single you out, Oki, but anyone suggesting that Indy intended to pilot it himself is being too naive in terms of him being able to fly a plane. A flying wing is not your standard, conventional, forward-propellored aircraft with a fuselage. Experienced, TEST pilots have crashed in those things! Even if Indy did know how to fly in 1936 (single or multiple engine), that plane is a TOTALLY different ball game.
Not to mention all the instruments would be in German and viewing "Raiders" as a stand-alone film, Indy doesn't seem to know the language (as per his confrontation with the soldier in the submarine base).
Attempting to fly that thing, Indy wouldn't be nuts, he'd be CRAZY! But, hey, with his luck...who knows?
...and there you have it, folks! (Although, I disagree with your reasoning as to why Indy wouldn't have tried to take the pilot's place).
Not to single you out, Oki, but anyone suggesting that Indy intended to pilot it himself is being too naive in terms of him being able to fly a plane. A flying wing is not your standard, conventional, forward-propellored aircraft with a fuselage. Experienced, TEST pilots have crashed in those things! Even if Indy did know how to fly in 1936 (single or multiple engine), that plane is a TOTALLY different ball game.
Not to mention all the instruments would be in German and viewing "Raiders" as a stand-alone film, Indy doesn't seem to know the language (as per his confrontation with the soldier in the submarine base).
Attempting to fly that thing, Indy wouldn't be nuts, he'd be CRAZY! But, hey, with his luck...who knows?
Fair enough, but would Indy have known that?
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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Food for thought here: if the full intention had been that Indy did know how to fly, would they have included A) Jock and B) the originally scripted element about the folks bailing from the airplane, leading to the original incarnation of the rubber raft sequence?
(Obviously, there's the matter of A) wanting a quick getaway and B) the plane being emptied of fuel to explain away these possibilities, but the former in particular suggest that, as scripted, the assumption would be that Indy did not fly himself.)
A is probably just to do with Indy needing a pilot who knows the territory.
B isn't really a valid point, at the end of the day you're using a rejected scene to support a point regarding an existing scene.
I really can't think of what else Indy intended to do. Squeeze into that tiny cockpit and force the pilot to avert his normal course? I still think he was planning to fly it out himself. Granted, this is inconsistent with the next two films, but they didn't exist then, only it did.
A is probably just to do with Indy needing a pilot who knows the territory.
B isn't really a valid point, at the end of the day you're using a rejected scene to support a point regarding an existing scene.
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Originally Posted by Smiffy
West End Games 'Raiders of the Lost Ark Sourcebook'...
After two months of asking questions, Jock discovered the high lake in the jungle where another pilot had taken Forrestal. Combined with the half of the map and other information gleaned from Forrestal's notes, Indy therefore knew the general place where Jock should land. Forrestal's notes recorded Machete Landing and the names of Barranca and Satipo.
Barranca and Satipo, though, had already heard Indy was interested in finding the temple and the idol within, and cabled him, offering to provide pack animals and guidance to the temple's vicinity. They also said they had half the map.
"Even though Jock had learned the general location of the lake where Forrestal landed on an earlier expedition, I [Indiana] could spend years searching for the temple in the twisted jungle undergrowth. I had to trust these two, and I had to pay them enough for them to trust me...We arranged to meet at a point on the lake a few weeks later. The two Peruvians were responsible for transporting supplies to the site..."
Barranca and Satipo are reported to be not brave enough or foolish enough to explore the area or venture inside to retrieve the idol, since most everyone they've taken to the area has died there. They intend to murder the first successful explorer and take the idol.
So, according to West End Games, Indy is flown by Jock to the lake and then meets up with the Peruvians and porters.The only trek Indy makes is exploring the vicinity, searching for the temple entrance. Meanwhile, Jock finds a friendly snake and names him Reggie. Whether he intended to bring him back with him is another matter, but Indy had to leave in a hurry and there was no time to remove Reggie before take-off.
It was just chance that the temple happened to be soclose to the location where Jock had landed with Indy. Barranca and Satipo must have known it was close, but finding it in the jungle could take a long time - hence the need for supplies.
I really can't think of what else Indy intended to do. Squeeze into that tiny cockpit and force the pilot to avert his normal course? I still think he was planning to fly it out himself. Granted, this is inconsistent with the next two films, but they didn't exist then, only it did.
The Raiders "Story Conference Transcript" (January 23, 1978 thru January 27, 1978, George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Larry Kasdan) provides interesting insight into the possibilities that the guys were kicking around.
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GEORGE LUCAS : One of the reasons I had the flying wing in the desert, landing on a secret desert base, was the fact that I assume that when we get it we're going to have to get it out of a museum somewhere around here, and we might be able to take it out to a desert around here. The Mojave or one of these Air Force bases out there. It's clean, they can just fly it in and fly it out. It's sort of second unit. Fly the plane in, stage the fight, and fly it out again without having to get into a big deal about getting it to a difficult location. Those flying wings are so dangerous that you can't fly them any more. But they're still around some where.
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GEORGE LUCAS : We were thinking that they had already got to it. Maybe he actually gets the piece there before the other guys get there. He's one step ahead of them at this point. An interesting there is how close the Germans are to getting it. You can have the Germans get it while he's there, and have him sabotage the Germans just before they get it on their airplane. I think it would be good if he got in and got out. When he gets on the plane you think he's escaping. So the whole thing, where he's going and everything becomes a real surprise.
At this stage of the story conference Indy wasn't going to fly himself, and it leads to the section saved for TOD:
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STEVEN SPIELBERG : This is where we can do our fist fight with the flying wing. We can do that sequence in the Shang Hai area.
LARRY KASDAN : And then he hops on a DC-3, which is their plane. It's the sabotaged plane.
STEVEN SPIELBERG : He does this. Under his seat is a life vest or a life raft. He takes the life vest out from all the seats and he blows them all up and he gets inside, and is completely insulated. Then her jumps out of the airplane. He just surrounds himself with these huge cushioned items.
...
STEVEN SPIELBERG : As the plane is crashing, she's the pilot [Marion]. They're going to crash land together.
STEVEN SPIELBERG : Well, he's never flown an airplane before, but he kicks in the pilot's door. That would be interesting, he's never flown before, but he brings it down. The other thing would be if he knows how to fly, but he's too late.
Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan return to the idea of the Flying Wing later on:
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STEVEN SPIELBERG : One of the things he wants to do is take control of the airplane. He'll hijack it.
GEORGE LUCAS : A lot of the wings are only like little fighter planes, a tiny cockpit with two guys in it.
STEVEN SPIELBERG : That's even better.
GEORGE LUCAS : All you need is him poling his head out of the temple and seeing all the Germans. Then you cut to the wing landing. I want a great shot of the wing flying. The wing could land, taxi to one of the buildings and say, "Fill this up with gas. We have a precious cargo to load." They're loading the wing up with gas, and he goes and gets in a fight with the guys. He can get in a fight with the pilot and a couple of other guys. He beats them all up. In the process of beating them up, the plane gets loose and crashes into something.
STEVEN SPIELBERG : It crashes into the gas pumps and creates a fire, and the wing burns up.
...
GEORGE LUCAS : ...you cut to them [Indy & Marion] looking outside the temple, seeing the Germans... "What are you going to do?" "I'm going to pilot that plane." "How am I going to get back?" "I never thought of that.
You'll find a way."
...
LARRY KASDAN : When he says he's going to take over that plane, and she asks him how she's going to get back, why doesn't he just say, "You're going to be my co-pilot." Let his intention be the highest, since they're never going to have to do it anyway. He's going to fly her out of there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
Fair enough, but would Indy have known that?
If Indy had received proper flight training he should have taken flight theory so, yes, he would/should have known that piloting this type of craft would be a different beast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Lucas
Those flying wings are so dangerous...
@Montana: Nice quotes. You've swayed my opinion somewhat. Of course, I've read the transcripts but never picked up on the finer points that you've highlighted. So great to have a new spin on an element in the movie after all these years.
To repeat what I said earlier:
Attempting to fly that thing, Indy wouldn't be nuts, he'd be CRAZY! But, hey, with his luck...who knows?
@Montana: Nice quotes. You've swayed my opinion somewhat. Of course, I've read the transcripts but never picked up on the finer points that you've highlighted. So great to have a new spin on an element in the movie after all these years.
There was so much said in those conferences that it's hard to remember everything, especially when they're throwing out contradictory ideas. I love dipping into that resource.
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Meh, I still think Indy was just going with the flow and making it up as he went along. He even said as much. Hell, he most likely was just gonna beat the pilot to a pulp, and see what happened next. Indy was always a kick-ass-now-ask-questions-later sorta guy to me.
I'm just going purely on the movie and not the book (which I have boxed up somewhere around here!).
Hell, he most likely was just gonna beat the pilot to a pulp...
Questions bring up more questions...
What was Indy going to do, squeeze in the cockpit behind Frank Marshall while he was looking the other way?
He was going to brain him, "crush his dome" (thanks for the SPF clips), knock him the F out!
...and THEN what?
Impersonate the pilot?
He most likely intended to be a stow a way and hijack the plane. That seemed unlikely because the pilot was waiting in the cockpit...or was he the gunner?
Silly for the pilot not to "refuel" while the plane was refueled.
Plan "B" kill the pilot = delays and another chance to grab the ark.
What was Indy going to do, squeeze in the cockpit behind Frank Marshall while he was looking the other way?
No.
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
He was going to brain him, "crush his dome" (thanks for the SPF clips), knock him the F out!
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Impersonate the pilot?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
He most likely intended to be a stow a way and hijack the plane.
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
That seemed unlikely because the pilot was waiting in the cockpit...or was he the gunner?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Silly for the pilot not to "refuel" while the plane was refueled.
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Plan "B" kill the pilot = delays and another chance to grab the ark.
Yes.
When he popped his head round and saw the flying wing his first thought was likely to hijack it. That plan quickly melted, as the beards surmised, because the crew and engineers were still around.
Even if Indy did know how to fly in 1936 (single or multiple engine), that plane is a TOTALLY different ball game.
