I don't want to be a naysayer, but I'm pretty sure at this point that the franchise is done. Not dead - it's got a cult fanbase and anniversary's coming up, but I'm really doubting that there'll be another, new Indiana Jones movie.
KOTCS was 3 years ago on the head and there's been no real information about a follow up. Ford is everyone's hero, but at his age 3 years of aging is a lot more than three years of aging between 50 and 53. Every other sequel worthy movie that was out in '08 has already had a sequel and is now looking towards the third.
I don't want to be a naysayer, but I'm pretty sure at this point that the franchise is done. Not dead - it's got a cult fanbase and anniversary's coming up, but I'm really doubting that there'll be another, new Indiana Jones movie.
KOTCS was 3 years ago on the head and there's been no real information about a follow up. Ford is everyone's hero, but at his age 3 years of aging is a lot more than three years of aging between 50 and 53. Every other sequel worthy movie that was out in '08 has already had a sequel and is now looking towards the third.
I too agree... I thought Ford was a tad too old in KOTCS (it certainly hurt the movies verisimilitude - IMHO)... but with each and every passing month the notion of Ford donning the hat again is becoming more distant. I think his advancing age will only hurt the movie more.
It's really quiet on the Indy 5 front for sure. I will admit Harrison Ford's age would definitely be a factor if they wait any longer. I have read that George Lucas was thinking about Harrison Ford to play a similar role like Sean Connery did in the Last Crusade movie. In fact that probably would be the only way for Harrison Ford could reprise the role past 70. There would have to be some kind of "changing of the guard" as in someone else picking up the adventure or closing the book for good. If it doesn't work out with Harrison Ford I would like to see a different chapter explored like a young Indy since reboots and prequels seems to be in at Hollywood at the moment.
I too agree... I thought Ford was a tad too old in KOTCS (it certainly hurt the movies verisimilitude - IMHO)... but with each and every passing month the notion of Ford donning the hat again is becoming more distant. I think his advancing age will only hurt the movie more.
I thought Ford's age added to Indy 4's character and made it more fun to watch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sartorius
I thought Ford's age added to Indy 4's character and made it more fun to watch.
If handled correctly and with some dignity, (I.E., showing him physically suffer a bit more because of his age without coming out and saying, "I'm getting to old for this") would give it a more grounded feel, and I'm not against that at all. as long as he's still (which is to say more) embroiled in the action for a 5th.
Favreau has made it clear that in Cowboys and Aliens, Ford is playing his more morally gray, roguish qualities that made him a star decades ago.
With Ford returning to familiar ground in a big Summer action film... I'm in the camp that believes that if Ford's performance is lauded in Cowboys and Aliens, we'll get another Indy.
I thought Ford's age added to Indy 4's character and made it more fun to watch.
It did... but you have to ask yourself... if you could magic up a new Indy movie tomorrow would it be with a 30/40 year old Ford (set in the 1930's/40's) or a 70 year old set in the 1950's? Then you have to ask yourself why the former (assuming you picked the younger Ford). As a comparison, would you have the Connery from Dr. No, From Russia With Love or Never Say Never Again?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
It did... but you have to ask yourself... if you could magic up a new Indy movie tomorrow would it be with a 30/40 year old Ford (set in the 1930's/40's) or a 70 year old set in the 1950's? Then you have to ask yourself why the former (assuming you picked the younger Ford). As a comparison, would you have the Connery from Dr. No, From Russia With Love or Never Say Never Again?
Once again, the James Bond argument. Look, at what age are spies who are actively searching out dangerous situations forced to retire? There has to be an age. At what age are archaeologists/professors put out to pasture? Is there an age of limitation? Indy, despite his origins as a fictional character, is not James Bond. Bond is a character whose mission is to get into trouble. Indy is a guy who stumbles upon adventure and intrigue in the course of his work. To me it's not as subtle a difference as it is to others, I guess. Until it is physically impossible for Ford to play the part at his age, why not let the arc continue? If you love the George Hall portrayal that much and don't want to see it besmirched with an ass-kicking Indy in his autumn years, that would make sense to me. Otherwise, reboot ain't happening until such time as Ford is unavailable, anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael
It just wouldn't be right. And I'm not saying I'm a fan of it, but INDY is too old for them to NOT be in it. That character HAS a family now.
There's always the chance a writer can pull it off...
Well, that's not exactly true, either. Just because he has a wife-n-kid doesn't mean they have to be there. I don't drag my family to work, you know. It seems that it would be harder to find a reason for them to be there, unless we're going to go with kidnapping, again. It's been used in 3 of the four films so far, I think they've beaten that horse pretty much to death.
I think the easiest route would be to acknowledge his family life the way Marshall College has always been acknowledged, since they squeezed a lot out of the college in KOTCS, anyway. You know, stop off with a family scene after the openeing 3rd act, then put 'em on a shelf until the end of the film. It solves so much. The anxiety of fans believing that Mutt is going to be the new Indy, get him on the road and out of America, away from modern references, and away from the characters, providing some literal and literary distance between itself as a film and the controversial KOTCS. It would just give Indy 5 a real chance at standing on it's own.
That's how I would approach it. But I'm in charge of 2 things, Jack and S***, and Jack left town.
Favreau has made it clear that in Cowboys and Aliens, Ford is playing his more morally gray, roguish qualities that made him a star decades ago.
With Ford returning to familiar ground in a big Summer action film... I'm in the camp that believes that if Ford's performance is lauded in Cowboys and Aliens, we'll get another Indy.
Fingers crossed!
And none of this crap about Indy playing a Sean Connery type role from Last Crusade. This is Harrison Ford we're talking about. An older, more rugged looking Indy is a good thing IMO.
I think the easiest route would be to acknowledge his family life the way Marshall College has always been acknowledged, since they squeezed a lot out of the college in KOTCS, anyway. You know, stop off with a family scene after the openeing 3rd act, then put 'em on a shelf until the end of the film. It solves so much. The anxiety of fans believing that Mutt is going to be the new Indy, get him on the road and out of America, away from modern references, and away from the characters, providing some literal and literary distance between itself as a film and the controversial KOTCS. It would just give Indy 5 a real chance at standing on it's own.
That's how I would approach it. But I'm in charge of 2 things, Jack and S***, and Jack left town.
The BEST way to do it would be a la "Temple of Doom" - no university, no "back home" scenes, nothing. Just have Indy already be abroad at the start of the film, wrapping up one adventure when he stumbles into another with a fresh batch of allies, sidekicks and villains.
Those college scenes are beyond redundant at this point, anyway.
Unfortunately, given Spielberg's paternalistic man-crush on Shia and the (presumed) fan attachment to Marion, they'll never go that route.
But just to be sure, I'll make a point to pass this along to Jack when I see him.
Once again, the James Bond argument. Look, at what age are spies who are actively searching out dangerous situations forced to retire? There has to be an age. At what age are archaeologists/professors put out to pasture? Is there an age of limitation? Indy, despite his origins as a fictional character, is not James Bond. Bond is a character whose mission is to get into trouble. Indy is a guy who stumbles upon adventure and intrigue in the course of his work. To me it's not as subtle a difference as it is to others, I guess. Until it is physically impossible for Ford to play the part at his age, why not let the arc continue? If you love the George Hall portrayal that much and don't want to see it besmirched with an ass-kicking Indy in his autumn years, that would make sense to me. Otherwise, reboot ain't happening until such time as Ford is unavailable, anyway.
You didn't really answer my question... There is a reason that Raiders was made first and that they selected Ford for the part i.e. the character was conceived as a man in his prime... and whilst not a superhero, he was a man the audience would believe could party, romance the ladies, hang off the back of trucks and take on Nazi's single handedly. If the original conceit had been about a man struggling to come to terms with his age, who needs a younger sidekick to bring down the average age of the actors, they'd have got John Wayne or James Stewart auditioning for the role of Indiana Jones (and perhaps it wouldn't have been the hit it was).
To dismiss the fact that Ford's age doesn't have any impact on the overall verisimilitude of the movie seems a little bit naive; especially when one is trying to determine/discuss the moviemakers approach to KOTCS, and possibly the next one.
Re. spies versus archaeologists. You do realise that many MI5/MI6 operatives are not '20 something's'? Indeed, many are ex military... so by default are not 'young' men. Look at some of the Russian agents e.g. Burgess, Blunt, Kim Philby etc. Middle aged to a man. Personally, I don't know any septuagenarian archaeologists who regular escape explosions, jump out of planes or fist fight to excess... but I do recognise and appreciate that, in the world of movies, it's slightly more believable to have a youngish man doing that as opposed to a circa 70 year old (no matter how much I may like Ford).
Of course Indy's age (58) in the film makes it a little less believable. But its no more less believable than anything else in the series. KOTCS embraces the age factor and makes it work. KOTCS has quite a few faults but I think they handled the age issue very well. They thankfully didn't go overboard with the "I'm too old for this ****". They acknowledge Indy's advanced age but don't hit you over the head with it.
Even at the time Raiders was made Ford was considered almost too old for the part. Some felt he would be too old once sequels started to be made.
I think the easiest route would be to acknowledge his family life the way Marshall College has always been acknowledged, since they squeezed a lot out of the college in KOTCS, anyway.
This would be my preference as well. They wouldn't even need to show the college again. Just give Indy at least one poignant scene with Marion, then let the quest begin.
As for Mutt, I'd have him be away on a Kerouac-style tour of America: He's out discovering the world for the first time, which only serves to remind Indy that his own adventuring days are winding down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
The BEST way to do it would be a la "Temple of Doom"
I'd also welcome this, but realistically, those days are probably gone. Judging by the past two films, it's going to be very difficult for Spielberg and Co. to not approach Indy 5 as one big swansong.
Of course Indy's age (58) in the film makes it a little less believable. But its no more less believable than anything else in the series. KOTCS embraces the age factor and makes it work. KOTCS has quite a few faults but I think they handled the age issue very well. They thankfully didn't go overboard with the "I'm too old for this ****". They acknowledge Indy's advanced age but don't hit you over the head with it.
Even at the time Raiders was made Ford was considered almost too old for the part. Some felt he would be too old once sequels started to be made.
I've never heard any story/quote referencing the view that Ford was considered too old for Raiders. I'd like to see that one...
I agree... KOTCS does, to some degree, embrace Ford's age. But it's not really a question of how they reference Ford's age... it's really about how it works on screen for an action movie and for a character that was at his best when he was portrayed as younger. There is a legitimate reason why Spielberg/Lucas weren't looking to cast a 70 year old for Raiders of the Lost Ark... same reason why Batman, James Bond, Spiderman etc. etc. aren't written as old characters... because it historically doesn't translate that well on screen for mainstream audiences.
I've never heard any story/quote referencing the view that Ford was considered too old for Raiders. I'd like to see that one...
I agree... KOTCS does, to some degree, embrace Ford's age. But it's not really a question of how they reference Ford's age... it's really about how it works on screen for an action movie and for a character that was at his best when he was portrayed as younger. There is a legitimate reason why Spielberg/Lucas weren't looking to cast a 70 year old for Raiders of the Lost Ark... same reason why Batman, James Bond, Spiderman etc. etc. aren't written as old characters... because it historically doesn't translate that well on screen for mainstream audiences.
Its in the Complete Making of Indiana Jones book. I'll try to find the exact page.
IF they make a 5th Indy movie, I'd really like to see Indy as more of a hardened Clint Eastwood type, rather than the somewhat bumbling old man we saw in KOTCS. No more tripping over bicycles, in other words, but rather a world-weary guy who has little patience left. A bit grittier, a bit less polished. Not clean-shaven, and maybe his hair is a bit more unkempt than usual. I'd even go so far as to say Marion could have died before the start of the movie, and maybe Mutt resents Indy for it and is no longer speaking to him. Indy would be a loner again, bringing the character full circle to the guy we saw at the start of Raiders.
Of course, there would have to be SOME humor in the movie (that's a vital part of the Indy formula), but it shouldn't come from people laughing at Indy's age. I think that sort of humor is a bit too obvious and it cheapens the character.
Also, instead of putting Indy in extreme physical situations, why not rely more on suspense/tension? Having Indy trying to sneak into a heavily guarded place without being detected (because he KNOWS he's not in good enough shape to beat anyone up) could be just as exciting, and a lot more believable, than watching him get into a fist fight with a man half his age. And speaking of which, the villains should pose a real threat. I never felt the villains in KOTCS were particularly threatening. Indy almost seemed to just be amused by them. I'd like to see him up against a villain that he respects/hates/fears. There was never any real sense of anger or fear from Indy when he was dealing with Spalko. He pretty much treated her like a joke, which it made it hard for the audience to care as much.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
You didn't really answer my question... There is a reason that Raiders was made first and that they selected Ford for the part i.e. the character was conceived as a man in his prime... and whilst not a superhero, he was a man the audience would believe could party, romance the ladies, hang off the back of trucks and take on Nazi's single handedly. If the original conceit had been about a man struggling to come to terms with his age, who needs a younger sidekick to bring down the average age of the actors, they'd have got John Wayne or James Stewart auditioning for the role of Indiana Jones (and perhaps it wouldn't have been the hit it was).
To dismiss the fact that Ford's age doesn't have any impact on the overall verisimilitude of the movie seems a little bit naive; especially when one is trying to determine/discuss the moviemakers approach to KOTCS, and possibly the next one.
Re. spies versus archaeologists. You do realise that many MI5/MI6 operatives are not '20 something's'? Indeed, many are ex military... so by default are not 'young' men. Look at some of the Russian agents e.g. Burgess, Blunt, Kim Philby etc. Middle aged to a man. Personally, I don't know any septuagenarian archaeologists who regular escape explosions, jump out of planes or fist fight to excess... but I do recognise and appreciate that, in the world of movies, it's slightly more believable to have a youngish man doing that as opposed to a circa 70 year old (no matter how much I may like Ford).
Seriously Darth? Who said his age didn't have an impact on Indy's character? Do I think that his age has an affect on his ability to play the version that you want? The womanizing aspect is gone, if not due to his age, then due to his marriage, and I'm ok with it. Personally, I don't know any archaeologists, let alone the variety that "regularly escape explosions, jump out of planes or fist fight to excess" if such a creature even exists....nor would I be privy to a correct age for such a person. It's kind of beside the point, anyway. Indy's character is not a guy that is ever trying to get into these situations anyway. He's a guy that gets in over his head and tries to get out of those situations. It's kind of a major theme in these films.
That being said, I think that Ford's/Indy's age doesn't matter as much as people like to think, as he can still get thrust into a tight spot through his profession, and I wouldn't mind seeing how a grizzled and seasoned adventurer would handle it.
EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
There is a legitimate reason why Spielberg/Lucas weren't looking to cast a 70 year old for Raiders of the Lost Ark... same reason why Batman, James Bond, Spiderman etc. etc. aren't written as old characters... because it historically doesn't translate that well on screen for mainstream audiences.
Ok, comparing Indy to superheroes to defend your stance on the age thing is kind of ridiculous. Indy is not a spandex-wearing vigilante, or an undercover spy. I get the point, but his character has evolved in a way that those others you mention would simply be unable to do because of the way they are written. Indy is (again: despite his origins as a fictional character) a one-of a kind character, and doesn't really have to adhere to the kind of limitations those others do.
Last edited by Indy's brother : 05-26-2011 at 04:16 PM.
Seriously Darth? Who said his age didn't have an impact on Indy's character? Do I think that his age has an affect on his ability to play the version that you want? The womanizing aspect is gone, if not due to his age, then due to his marriage, and I'm ok with it. Personally, I don't know any archaeologists, let alone the variety that "regularly escape explosions, jump out of planes or fist fight to excess" if such a creature even exists....nor would I be privy to a correct age for such a person. It's kind of beside the point, anyway. Indy's character is not a guy that is ever trying to get into these situations anyway. He's a guy that gets in over his head and tries to get out of those situations. It's kind of a major theme in these films.
That being said, I think that Ford's/Indy's age doesn't matter as much as people like to think, as he can still get thrust into a tight spot through his profession, and I wouldn't mind seeing how a grizzled and seasoned adventurer would handle it.
EDIT
Ok, comparing Indy to superheroes to defend your stance on the age thing is kind of ridiculous. Indy is not a spandex-wearing vigilante, or an undercover spy. I get the point, but his character has evolved in a way that those others you mention would simply be unable to do because of the way they are written. Indy is (again: despite his origins as a fictional character) a one-of a kind character, and doesn't really have to adhere to the kind of limitations those others do.
It really isn't about "defending a stance"... it's about being realistic when examining the very probable approach Spielberg/Lucas will take when/if they make a new Indy movie with Ford (given the leading actors advancing years). They'll bring in younger actors (a la Shia) to appeal to younger audiences and increase box office (Ford isn't the star he was). They'll probably make the humour more goofy in order not to risk looking like they are taking themselves too seriously. They'll probably only pay lip service to Indy's age with a few quips about his back, pension etc. etc.
They are not going to give us a considered, deliberate and thoughtful movie which examines the hero's moral compass, dilemma's and life lived e.g. Unforgiven, The Shootist, Gran Torino. At best we'll get KOTCS Part 2... with some hopefully better action (if Spielberg has learnt a lesson or two from last time).. I'll be happy enough with that for sure, but I'm not stupid enough to believe it won't ultimately be a watered down (which is all it can ever be) version of the original (and better) conceit. If you want something comparable to the first, as far as tone is concerned - IMHO, it will have to be with a younger leading man in situ.
Re. your point about Indy's "evolved" character. Indiana Jones is an action hero as best personified in Raiders, TOD and TLC. As much as I personally enjoyed KOTCS, it's a curio as it presents Indy (because of Ford's age) out of context with his own iconography. I think the movie would have been much better if made a couple of years after TLC, with a still relatively young Ford... but that's me. In 50/100 years time I'm pretty sure the iconography around Indiana Jones will be as his young (ish), romantic lead persona fighting Nazi's. That's the personification of the character, that's what will still be playing in the Indy show in Orlando... and that's why I think Ford's age is a problem when wanting a swashbuckling, semi-serious follow up to KOTCS.
Last edited by Darth Vile : 05-26-2011 at 06:05 PM.
