The wikipedia page on Henry Jones Sr. states that he is clearly a Christian given his statements in Last Crusade but his denomination is unclear. I am curious is there any evidence, perhaps in the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles as to what Henry Sr's denomination is? I suppose by extension it would also be the denomination of Indy himself, at least nominally.
The only clues I know of is the supposed Scottish decent (Sean Connery's accent) which would point to Presbyterianism, the most common religious denomination in Scotland. The Jones surname itself is considered to be of Welsh origin so he could also be Anglican/Episcopalian. I dont think he is Roman Catholic, his strict interpretation (i.e. slapping Indy for blashomy) might point to Catholicism of the day and perhaps he is a Scottish person with Irish Catholic ancestry (like Sean Connery) but to me it seems the Jonses are of a rather WASPy (as in Protestant) background and not likely to be Catholic. Also the church where Indy got married in KOTCS seems rather Protestant and I dont think the minister was a Catholic priest, and the service was not Catholic in style, certainly not in the pre-Vatican II era of 1957.
The wikipedia page on Henry Jones Sr. states that he is clearly a Christian given his statements in Last Crusade but his denomination is unclear. I am curious is there any evidence, perhaps in the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles as to what Henry Sr's denomination is? I suppose by extension it would also be the denomination of Indy himself, at least nominally.
The only clues I know of is the supposed Scottish decent (Sean Connery's accent) which would point to Presbyterianism, the most common religious denomination in Scotland. The Jones surname itself is considered to be of Welsh origin so he could also be Anglican/Episcopalian. I dont think he is Roman Catholic, his strict interpretation (i.e. slapping Indy for blashomy) might point to Catholicism of the day and perhaps he is a Scottish person with Irish Catholic ancestry (like Sean Connery) but to me it seems the Jonses are of a rather WASPy (as in Protestant) background and not likely to be Catholic. Also the church where Indy got married in KOTCS seems rather Protestant and I dont think the minister was a Catholic priest, and the service was not Catholic in style, certainly not in the pre-Vatican II era of 1957.
Does anyone have any clues/theories?
Presbyterian came to mind before I opened this thread. Henry Sr.'s stiff attitude throughout the YIJC and at the beginning of the TLC tend towards a more puritan outlook. Which eventually slips when he reveals his one night stand with Elsa.
There's also a Presbyterian Church of Wales, though the Jones surname maybe a red herring. Lucas chose 'Jones' because it was a common name, as an alternative to 'Smith'. His choice gets complicated when Connery was introduced as Indy's father. There is a big English contingent of Joneses (as I think it simply means 'son of John'). So a border romance seemed the likely origin of Indy's surname.
Well guessing religion by surname alone is a tricky business because the Jones name is so common and I know a number of Catholics (in the USA) with the name Jones even though it is not a surname from historically Catholic regions, in the republic of Ireland for instance Jones is not that common of a name. In the 19th century mobility increased in the British Isles and elsewhere and there was probably more intermarriage and thus mixing of surnames regardless of traditional geographic religious affiliations.
Well guessing religion by surname alone is a tricky business because the Jones name is so common and I know a number of Catholics (in the USA) with the name Jones even though it is not a surname from historically Catholic regions, in the republic of Ireland for instance Jones is not that common of a name. In the 19th century mobility increased in the British Isles and elsewhere and there was probably more intermarriage and thus mixing of surnames regardless of traditional geographic religious affiliations.
No, I don't think we can put much emphasis on the 'Jones' surname. It was an off the cuff choice by Lucas to give his main character a common name. As things transpired and the legend grew, McJones might have been more appropriate!
I don't recall seeing anything in the YIJC series or the movies, or in the novels that gives a clue to Henry Sr.'s denomination. That's typical for Lucas, though, who tends to keep things open-ended with Indy. Just another of those mysteries that he gives us the chance to debate.
I would say Henry Senior is a nominal christian at best with an interest in merely the historical aspects and "lore" surrounding Christ and His followers.
I would say Henry Senior is a nominal christian at best with an interest in merely the historical aspects and "lore" surrounding Christ and His followers.
Henry is sort of "fanboy" of Christian History.
I'd have to disagree. A nominal Christian wouldn't smack his grown son for "blasphemy."
I would say Henry Senior is a nominal christian at best with an interest in merely the historical aspects and "lore" surrounding Christ and His followers.
Henry is sort of "fanboy" of Christian History.
"The quest for the grail is not archaology, its a race against evil. If the nazis recover the grail the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth" Henry Jones Sr.
I think that sums it up right there, Henry Sr. is a true believer and no it is clear he is not talking about what the grail means to other people in a detached academic sense it is clear from the emotion in his voice that he is speaking from the heart. Also as someone already pointed out he slapped his son for blasphemy about 30 seconds before that.
I mean I can understand people wanting the characters to reflect their own beliefs and their is more ambiguity with Indy himself and some other characters but with Henry Sr. you are really going against hard evidence.
Last edited by chicago103 : 07-06-2010 at 03:03 PM.
"The quest for the grail is not archaology, its a race against evil. If the nazis recover the grail the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth" Henry Jones Sr.
I think that sums it up right there, Henry Sr. is a true believer.
I don't think there's any doubt that Sr.'s a believer. The Grail was a passion, but he also shows his practical devotion, as in goodeknight's reference to the reprimand for blasphemy.
I wonder whether Indy ever told him about the Ark, or if he did, whether his dad was even listening?
I don't think there's any doubt that Sr.'s a believer. The Grail was a passion, but he also shows his practical devotion, as in goodeknight's reference to the reprimand for blasphemy.
I wonder whether Indy ever told him about the Ark, or if he did, whether his dad was even listening?
If Indy did tell him about the Ark I am sure it would be after the events of Last Crusade since they didnt speak much before that. Then again given Henry Sr's close friendship with Marcus I am sure that Marcus would have told him about the adventure.
A nominal Christian wouldn't smack his grown son for "blasphemy."
And a practicing Christian...a true "believer" wouldn't enjoy Elsa so...thoroughly.
Henry is obsessed with legends and artifacts surrounding Christ, and this OBSESSION has affected his life. Henry's life does not reflect a love for Jesus Himself. Following treasure maps and clues after the Grail...not following after Jesus Christ out of true belief and love for the Son of God.
A nominal Christian agrees that there is a God and Jesus and the Bible are obviously really important and good, but none of these agreements or loosely "beliefs" impact their lives in any meaningful way.
Henry could've just as easily been really enthusiatic about the US Army. He could've poured over years of military history, collected rare artifacts, drawn pictures of soldiers, recited the Army Hymn word for word and note for note, he could've even worn a uniform, but would the US military have recognized Henry as a soldier?
To continue the parallel, Henry's love for those who fight for freedom would be understandable and even commendable, but it would be inaccurate and disrespectful to those who truly served sacrificially to call an enthusiast a soldier, or compare mere interest with literal service on the frontline.
Yes, I believe the Grail had a personal value to Henry, but did Jesus Hmself?
Matthew 19:21 - Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Read through this thread, and you will find the other side "basing an awful lot on one single" slap for blasphemy.
Well to me and to just about anybody slapping your grown son for blasphemy and then going on about how the quest for the grail is a race against evil points toward religiosity much moreso than a single act of a widower having sex outside of marriage points towards a lack of religiosity. Noone is perfect, are you saying that true believers never have sex outside of marriage? I am sure he knew it was a sin according to his religion but then again he is not perfect. For all we knew he might have slept with Elsa because he was suspicious of her and wanted information, a suspicion that was justified, he did tell Indy "I didnt trust her, why did you?", I take that to mean Henry Sr. didnt really trust her from the begining.
I always pictured Henry Sr.'s character to be an academic and deeply religious man with a touch of James Bond in him (hence the womanizing). I imagine the Young Indy Chronicles showed him to be faithfull to his wife while she was still alive and for him having occassional flings with women happened after her death when he was a widower. Who the hell knows, maybe Elsa was his first since his wife's death decades earlier.
In any event given the events of the end of the Last Crusade where his life was saved by the grail and he told Indy he found "illumination" from the grail it seems his faith was deepened after that and given that Indy professes belief that his father is in the afterlife in KOTCS it seems the events of the Last Crusade had some impact on Indiana's spiritual beliefs as well.
Well to me and to just about anybody slapping your grown son for blasphemy and then going on about how the quest for the grail is a race against evil points toward religiosity much moreso than a single act of a widower having sex outside of marriage points towards a lack of religiosity.
Yes, that slap was in the film for a reason. It was a funny moment, but also telling of Henry's sensibilities. His reveal about Elsa was the other side of his personality, which is breaking free after years of living like a stuffy Victorian (and even the Victorian attitude to sex was more James Bond than they'd like anyone to believe). In fact the Victorian angle would be very apt in explaining Henry Sr.'s character: outwardly stuffy and seriously religious, yet beneath this mask there's a hidden passion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicago103
Noone is perfect, are you saying that true believers never have sex outside of marriage? I am sure he knew it was a sin according to his religion but then again he is not perfect. For all we knew he might have slept with Elsa because he was suspicious of her and wanted information, a suspicion that was justified, he did tell Indy "I didnt trust her, why did you?", I take that to mean Henry Sr. didnt really trust her from the begining.
I always pictured Henry Sr.'s character to be an academic and deeply religious man with a touch of James Bond in him (hence the womanizing). I imagine the Young Indy Chronicles showed him to be faithfull to his wife while she was still alive and for him having occassional flings with women happened after her death when he was a widower. Who the hell knows, maybe Elsa was his first since his wife's death decades earlier.
The point about perfection is another element of TLC, the understanding between father and son that neither have been perfect.
I also think that during his marriage he was probably faithful. He's very protective of his wife's memory, but in the events of TLC he is finally moving on, finding new relationships.
As far as 'crimes against God' go, Henry's 'sin' was minor. And depending on his denomination it might not even be interpreted as a sin at all - the sum total of denominations is the sum total of organized interpretations of the Bible.
After all, how many devout catholic Mafia members were buying their way into heaven during the 1930s?
Today there are even priests who are are writing out some of the 'sins', and not just those priests who are actually committing the sins on the quiet.
Well to me and to just about anybody slapping your grown son for blasphemy and then going on about how the quest for the grail is a race against evil points toward religiosity much moreso than a single act of a widower having sex outside of marriage points towards a lack of religiosity.
Which brings me back to what I was trying say earlier. "Religiosity" does not equal Christianity. The denominations mentioned in this thread are Christian denominations. So, I think it's relevant to discuss what it is to be a true Christian.
Also, regarding "perfection." No, Christians aren't perfect. They are sinners. That's why they need a perfect, sinless Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The argument that Christians think they're perfect or should be perfect...any of the above misses the point of a Christian's need for and dependence on sanctifying Savior. Christians aren't sinless, but they know where to turn for forgiveness when they are truly repentant.
Which brings me back to what I was trying say earlier. "Religiosity" does not equal Christianity. The denominations mentioned in this thread are Christian denominations. So, I think it's relevant to discuss what it is to be a true Christian.
Also, regarding "perfection." No, Christians aren't perfect. They are sinners. That's why they need a perfect, sinless Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The argument that Christians think they're perfect or should be perfect...any of the above misses the point of a Christian's need for and dependence on sanctifying Savior. Christians aren't sinless, but they know where to turn for forgiveness when they are truly repentant.
So you and I agree that Christians (all all people) are not perfect and yet you still have a problem with believing that Henry Sr. is a true Christian because of his having sex with Elsa? I mean you are entitled to your opinion but if Henry Sr. isnt a true Christian then none of the main characters are. In any event Henry Sr's "illumination" after being being saved by the grail is about as close to being "born again" if you will as you can get.
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I would agree with foreignerfred's distinction between a nominal Christian and a "true believer"... having been raised a Christian I know the doctrine behind what governs a "faithful, church-going Christian" lifestyle. (I rather dislike it now and have gone the agnostic route...but that's beside the point.)
Henry Jones Sr., from the point of view we are given in the film, does not fit the type of a faithful, church-going Christian. He strikes me as the type to belong to a denomination primarily by name only, while his interests in the grail, etc. are heavily academic and not necessarily propelled by his personal beliefs.
I rather like this, as fitting this man to a denomination of any kind would imply many (in my opinion) narrow-minded connotations and a state of being entirely too uptight about his beliefs... do we want to watch this movie thinking that Henry Sr. sincerely believes his son is going to hell for not sharing his personal beliefs? Please, no thanks. He might be a Christian in name and recognition of a higher authority (a god) but leave the Bible thumping to another.
Thus, I agree with foreignerfred on that count...on religious counts, probably not so much.
Henry Jones Sr., from the point of view we are given in the film, does not fit the type of a faithful, church-going Christian. He strikes me as the type to belong to a denomination primarily by name only, while his interests in the grail, etc. are heavily academic and not necessarily propelled by his personal beliefs.
From the outside it would appear that Henry Sr. is an everyman who represents those who see themselves as the "faithful, church-going Christian" type, and that includes the priests and preachers, too. He's as human as the next man.
Unless they live like a saint, all Christians would represent the description of a "nominal Christian".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlivePoet
I rather like this, as fitting this man to a denomination of any kind would imply many (in my opinion) narrow-minded connotations and a state of being entirely too uptight about his beliefs... do we want to watch this movie thinking that Henry Sr. sincerely believes his son is going to hell for not sharing his personal beliefs? Please, no thanks. He might be a Christian in name and recognition of a higher authority (a god) but leave the Bible thumping to another.
Thus, I agree with foreignerfred on that count...on religious counts, probably not so much.
Yet Henry Sr. was written as narrow-minded in the opening of TLC as a younger man, and for most of the film as an older man. Throughout the YIJC his narrow-mindedness is punctuated by the rare occasions when he cuts loose and opens up.
It's his narrow-mindedness that closed Indy out of his life, and through the film he gradually begins to accept another point of view.
Slapping his son for blasphemy was the physical expression of his constrained belief at that time. By 1938 Indy has seen so many strange things that his eyes are open to all manner of beliefs. Henry Sr. is only beginning on that journey of discovery.
It wouldn't matter if Lucas came out and said that Sr. was a presbyterian (though it would be uncharacteristic for Lucas to pin a character down like that), because it's his journey of discovery which is the important part of his story.
Which brings me back to what I was trying say earlier. "Religiosity" does not equal Christianity. The denominations mentioned in this thread are Christian denominations. So, I think it's relevant to discuss what it is to be a true Christian.
Also, regarding "perfection." No, Christians aren't perfect. They are sinners. That's why they need a perfect, sinless Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The argument that Christians think they're perfect or should be perfect...any of the above misses the point of a Christian's need for and dependence on sanctifying Savior. Christians aren't sinless, but they know where to turn for forgiveness when they are truly repentant.
But that's not what you said. You said that because Henry Sr. had sex with Elsa, it meant he couldn't possibly be a Christian, because a Christian wouldn't do that. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what you are acknowledging above, that Christians aren't perfect and that they look to the perfect Christ for guidance, even though they can and do often falter themselves.
I would agree with foreignerfred's distinction between a nominal Christian and a "true believer"... having been raised a Christian I know the doctrine behind what governs a "faithful, church-going Christian" lifestyle. (I rather dislike it now and have gone the agnostic route...but that's beside the point.)
Henry Jones Sr., from the point of view we are given in the film, does not fit the type of a faithful, church-going Christian. He strikes me as the type to belong to a denomination primarily by name only, while his interests in the grail, etc. are heavily academic and not necessarily propelled by his personal beliefs.
I rather like this, as fitting this man to a denomination of any kind would imply many (in my opinion) narrow-minded connotations and a state of being entirely too uptight about his beliefs... do we want to watch this movie thinking that Henry Sr. sincerely believes his son is going to hell for not sharing his personal beliefs? Please, no thanks. He might be a Christian in name and recognition of a higher authority (a god) but leave the Bible thumping to another.
Thus, I agree with foreignerfred on that count...on religious counts, probably not so much.
Well no I dont think Henry Sr. is a Christian fundamentalist but I do maintain he is a true believer. What I mean by that is that I am sure he believes Jesus Christ is the son of God (he slapped his son for saying "Jesus Christ"), he believes the grail has supernatural powers and who pocesses it is important beyond historical artifact bragging rights. In that sense he believes the grail is much more than just an item of "lore", to him it is much more than just a historical artifact.
Henry Sr. is mainline protestant, probably Presbyterian, not a bible thumping fundamentalist quick judge his son as bound for hell but caring enough to slap his son for what he considers disrespect to Christ.
It seems alot of people forget that true believer does not mean a bible thumping fire and brimstone fundamentalist, Henry Sr. is deeply religious but overall quite mainstream.
Well no I dont think Henry Sr. is a Christian fundamentalist but I do maintain he is a true believer. What I mean by that is that I am sure he believes Jesus Christ is the son of God (he slapped his son for saying "Jesus Christ"), he believes the grail has supernatural powers and who pocesses it is important beyond historical artifact bragging rights. In that sense he believes the grail is much more than just an item of "lore", to him it is much more than just a historical artifact.
Henry Sr. is mainline protestant, probably Presbyterian, not a bible thumping fundamentalist quick judge his son as bound for hell but caring enough to slap his son for what he considers disrespect to Christ.
It seems alot of people forget that true believer does not mean a bible thumping fire and brimstone fundamentalist, Henry Sr. is deeply religious but overall quite mainstream.
I find this thread running in tandem with the 'Is Indy an atheist?' thread.
From Indy's experiences in TOD and then ROTLA we are lead to assume that he recognizes the activity of different gods in his universe, and would therefore not consign himself to a single belief system. His experience must lead him to believe, but it also must lead him to believe in things that would ordinarilu prove contradictory. He is at first skeptical, then open-minded, then accepting.
His father, however, has not had the same experience of the occult world. Indy's open-mindedness is mirrored by Henry Sr.'s narrow-mindedness. Finding himself in the middle of one of his son's typical adventures leads primarily to the opening of his mind to accept his son. However, the specific nature of the artifact in TLC would not be enough in itself to convince him of the many gods acting over the world.
I've never really considered which denomination Henry was a part of. I don't know if this is relevant by at the end of LC, Marcus does the sign of the cross when Henry is healed which is typically a Catholic mannerism (do not quote me on this). Perhaps Henry and Marcus share this denomination? It’s not very likely though. Also the slapping due to blasphemy is very Victorian era Catholic. I would say he is Catholic but then again how could I possibly know!
