This may be an odd thought, but when I first saw "Last Crusade" in a theater,
I remember Boy Scout Indy riding a horse in Arches (now a national park)
in Utah.
Boy Scout troops are sometimes sponsored by churches, and I thought
then that Indy might be a member of Utah's dominant church, the Mormons.
Obviously that wasn't the case, his father was probably a Scottish Presbyterian
and Indy was raised without a lot of formal religious training.
I wouldn't count too much on the references (the slapping and the night with Elsa), since they are there for narrative purpouses, and there's plenty of stuff that contradicts either aspect of Henry Jones Sr. to be an observant. Don't forget his reaction when Indy kills the nazi with they find them in the castle (he's not angry, more surprised, I'll say), or when he downs the plane with the massive bird strike, being afterwards calm and assertive.
Great scenes which are there for the plot and not for the character religous develompent. Also his beliefs in God, the Grail and its powers are somehow "rational" (I know it's a nonsense), he studied the matter his whole life and he acquired enough competence to believe, so it's not technically "faith".
I wouldn't count too much on the references (the slapping and the night with Elsa), since they are there for narrative purpouses, and there's plenty of stuff that contradicts either aspect of Henry Jones Sr. to be an observant. Don't forget his reaction when Indy kills the nazi with they find them in the castle (he's not angry, more surprised, I'll say), or when he downs the plane with the massive bird strike, being afterwards calm and assertive.
Great scenes which are there for the plot and not for the character religous develompent. Also his beliefs in God, the Grail and its powers are somehow "rational" (I know it's a nonsense), he studied the matter his whole life and he acquired enough competence to believe, so it's not technically "faith".
Some thoughtful points, Yure.
Spending time with the older Indy certainly gives Henry Sr. a more pragmatic approach to life and death. I like your last point - that his obsessive research on the Grail made it real in his own mind. It had a substance beyond blind faith.
That would be similar to Indy having already experienced the occult, and being open to its possibility. However, whereas Indy is usually skeptical of each new encounter, before he can prove it in person, his father is already convinced from his own studies.
What sect of Christianity do you think Indy was raised as?
We know of course that Indy was raised by Christians, but I kind of wonder if Henry, Sr was either a Catholic, a Protestant, or some other sect. In any case, he was obviously very religious.
In Indy's case, It seems Indy is a Christian but not religious in the Chronicles, starts to become more of an Agnostic toward end of the series, is an Agnostic learning towards Atheist in TOD and Raiders, becomes more of an open minded Agnostic in LC, and a Theist of some sort by KOTCS.
In Indy's case, It seems Indy is a Christian but not religious in the Chronicles, starts to become more of an Agnostic toward end of the series, is an Agnostic learning towards Atheist in TOD and Raiders, becomes more of an open minded Agnostic in LC, and a Theist of some sort by KOTCS.
Well he certainly wasn't an atheist in TOD - he knew how to call on an Indian deity, and get a result.
Since there is no single God in the Indiana Jones series of movies (his world is pan-theistic), lots of choices are valid, and it would be possible to follow more than one deity.
I'd guess Catholic or Protestant. These two groups don't entirely like each other so I'd gravitate towards Protestant, although he is most likely atheist as an educated adult, or even earlier. I'd like to think he was agnostic, if anything. In ToD when he called upon Shiva that was just a placebo mind trick for Mola Ram's sake. The burning bag was just his lucky lighter somehow luckily self igniting at an opportune moment. Oh, and the Ark going off was just all the munitions Indy put in there while he had it in Cairo. And in LC the healing Grail wasn't the healing grail at all, it was the water which had a very special mineral matrix in it which of course no one knew about and assumed it was the cup. And the Aliens.....
The burning bag was just his lucky lighter somehow luckily self igniting at an opportune moment.
I LIKE this!
The bag lit because the Stones struck phosphorus sesquisulfide matches during the tug of war...
The traces of gun oil and other flammables spilt in the bag over time did the rest!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
Oh, and the Ark going off was just all the munitions Indy put in there while he had it in Cairo. And in LC the healing Grail wasn't the healing grail at all, it was the water which had a very special mineral matrix in it which of course no one knew about and assumed it was the cup. And the Aliens.....
@ Mickiana: Indy has a saving grace, even though he isn't an atheist, at least there is a certified occult power at work in his world. There's proof of something out there, woven into the fabric of his universe, which can be dealt with. His method of accessing it would be, if he had the choice, through the most ancient texts, which have the least taint of man's alterations upon them.
Yes, even Indy believed he was invoking Shiva and Mola Ram was convinced of it. Reviewing what I said yesterday about IJ's personal approach to religious beliefs, I think he would not be atheist in that he recognises that there are various gods that people venerate, but he may not particularly venerate any himself. He may not believe either, but he may allow room for further possible concrete evidence to appear one day, he being the good social scientist he is.
And as for what I was saying about Indy being agnostic, I don't know what I was thinking. I've got a sinus infection you wouldn't believe and I think my brain is affected. Even more than atheist, Indy is definitely not agnostic. He is most likely more gnostic than theist. That would fit in with his universal view of history, religion and culture or at least result from it. He doesn't really display any beliefs or leanings either way, we are shown an impartial Indy, but I suppose that doesn't mean he is impartial.
Yes, even Indy believed he was invoking Shiva and Mola Ram was convinced of it. Reviewing what I said yesterday about IJ's personal approach to religious beliefs, I think he would not be atheist in that he recognises that there are various gods that people venerate, but he may not particularly venerate any himself. He may not believe either, but he may allow room for further possible concrete evidence to appear one day, he being the good social scientist he is.
...
He is most likely more gnostic than theist. That would fit in with his universal view of history, religion and culture or at least result from it. He doesn't really display any beliefs or leanings either way, we are shown an impartial Indy, but I suppose that doesn't mean he is impartial.
At the very least Indy believes in the occult, because he's seen it in action: the scientist in him has witnessed events that science cannot yet explain. Whether the occult derives from gods, or from another channelled source is really unknown, because we are only shown a box that murders selectively, a man living without his heart, stones heating up on command, a cup that turns good water into dessicating poison (and I can throw in the mystery of the light-trap).
The only physical manifestation of occult power are the Inter-Dimensionals who have abilities beyond human. They also inhabit a place where versions of heaven and hell might reside (as the creatures exist in another dimension, and not necessarily on another world).
So what would be the term for somebody who knows the existence of the occult, but doesn't necessarily believe in gods as depicted, filtered and edited by man through religious works?
That's really the study of man. I'm trying to think of way to describe Indy's position. With regard to the occult he's beyond belief or faith, because he has knowledge of it's existence. Therefore, he knows that the supernatural is just another part of his world (something as yet unexplained which co-exists with nature).
Maybe Ietism covers him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Ietsism (Dutch: Ietsisme (pronounced [itsˈɪsmə]) - "Somethingism") is an unspecified belief in some higher force.[1] It is a Dutch term for a range of beliefs held by people who, on the one hand, inwardly suspect - or indeed believe - that there is “More between Heaven and Earth” than we know about, but on the other hand do not necessarily accept or subscribe to the established belief system, dogma or view of the nature of God offered by any particular religion. The nearest English language equivalent terms are agnostic theism and deism.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 7,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
We know of course that Indy was raised by Christians, but I kind of wonder if Henry, Sr was either a Catholic, a Protestant, or some other sect. In any case, he was obviously very religious.
In Indy's case, It seems Indy is a Christian but not religious in the Chronicles, starts to become more of an Agnostic toward end of the series, is an Agnostic learning towards Atheist in TOD and Raiders, becomes more of an open minded Agnostic in LC, and a Theist of some sort by KOTCS.
...but I just found another, bountiful one from last year: Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)? Guess who created it? That's right, folks. It was Raiders112390! Same topic starter. Same subject. Same answers... This begs the question: Were the replies unsatisfactory?
No, I didn't actively seek it out...It was stumbled upon while looking for something else.
...but I just found another, bountiful one from last year: Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)? Guess who created it? That's right, folks. It was Raiders112390! Same topic starter. Same subject. Same answers... This begs the question: Were the replies unsatisfactory?
To re-paraphrase something I worte earlier:
So what would be the term for somebody who knows the existence of a thread, but starts another almost identical, because they don't necessarily believe in the results as depicted, filtered and edited by members through their posts in the previous one?
So what would be the term for somebody who knows the existence of a thread, but starts another almost identical, because they don't necessarily believe in the results as depicted, filtered and edited by members through their posts in the previous one?
It is most tiresome, Raiders112390. With your passion for details, I doubt that you forget the prior threads. And the reason there's a passion for "thread necromancy" around these parts is that the discussions don't really die...the whole point, as I see it, of having a forum such as this is that the conversation continues, over time, even though they may stop for a period of time.
So: this thread has now been merged into the Henry Sr. thread. The atheist in Raiders thread took on a rather different character, so that will remain.
It is most tiresome, Raiders112390. With your passion for details, I doubt that you forget the prior threads. And the reason there's a passion for "thread necromancy" around these parts is that the discussions don't really die...the whole point, as I see it, of having a forum such as this is that the conversation continues, over time, even though they may stop for a period of time.
Nicely put, Attila. You always have your finger on the pulse, as part of the attraction of these discussions is that if they're kept in as few places as possible, the old posts aren't forgotten, but added to, or amended by time. After a period of rest or coma, a gentle bump will bring them back to life.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 7,006
Clue?
I'm not an expert on Christian things but...Indy had this Bible sitting on his desk...
It was there, untouched, between 1916-1919...amongst the main things he held dear...a photo of his mom, a baseball, etc.
The re-edited DVDs insinuated that this was Leo Tolstoy's bible but that really isn't the case! Who gave Indy this Bible and can his denomitation really be determined ?
That is the Russian Orthodox cross symbol on the bible in the pic. Whether or not it was supposed to be Tolstoy's bible I don't know. If it did remain untouched on his desk amongst other sentimental items, then maybe it was just that. Deducing the context of interest it held for him is very difficult. If it was untouched he didn't read it. If he read it later, I hope it was as a good history/religion scholar would - impartially, academically and as a secular piece of work.
I always felt Indy would not commit to a religious belief because of his natural skepticism and academia. When he asks Marcus, "Do you believe?", I took this to indicate his own lack of religious belief, but in a state of uncertainty. It was a moment when Indy was unsure of his own impartiality and, so, in his trust of his good friend and colleague he asks him his feelings on the matter. The implication of Indy's own question to Marcus could be: "Because I'm not sure at this moment of what to believe myself." I take this to be due to his father's influence, who was certainly christian.
If Indy was raised as a christian, he certainly doesn't display those values in his life. He smashes a good handful of the ten commandments to bits every time he goes into the field. Justifiable as his actions might be in his world, they are certainly not christian. We are not presented with a christian Indiana Jones. I assume this topic gets raised because some people would like him to be a christian. But he is not, just as he didn't turn out to be a baseball player merely because he had a baseball on his desk as well.
I'm not an expert on Christian things but...Indy had this Bible sitting on his desk...
It was there, untouched, between 1916-1919...amongst the main things he held dear...a photo of his mom, a baseball, etc.
The re-edited DVDs insinuated that this was Leo Tolstoy's bible but that really isn't the case! Who gave Indy this Bible and can his denomitation really be determined ?
I can't see a Russian Orthodox connection to Henry Sr. That would seem a bit obtuse. However, having a Russian Orthodox bible on his desk may denote his far-reaching travels and studies.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 7,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
That is the Russian Orthodox cross symbol on the bible in the pic. Whether or not it was supposed to be Tolstoy's bible I don't know. If it did remain untouched on his desk amongst other sentimental items, then maybe it was just that. Deducing the context of interest it held for him is very difficult. If it was untouched he didn't read it. If he read it later, I hope it was as a good history/religion scholar would - impartially, academically and as a secular piece of work.
Thanks for identifying the Russian Orthodox cross, Mickey. In the original 1919 bookends of "Travels With Father", the bible is completely different from the the one that Tolstoy gives him. The DVD altered one shot to make them the same. (See: these comparison images...What's interesting is that the 'other' prop doesn't have the Russian Orthodox cross on it.)
As for it being untouched, Indy might have tried to read it as a young teen in his years before going off to war but he'd have needed a pretty good grasp on written Russian to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
I assume this topic gets raised because some people would like him to be a christian. But he is not, just as he didn't turn out to be a baseball player merely because he had a baseball on his desk as well.
I emphatically agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smigh
I can't see a Russian Orthodox connection to Henry Sr. That would seem a bit obtuse. However, having a Russian Orthodox bible on his desk may denote his far-reaching travels and studies.
Depending on which version of Indy's backstory one likes to follow, it's either:
A) A bible that Henry Sr. acquired during his travels and then handed down to Indy.
B) Tolstoy's bible.
Conclusion: It's irrelevant in determining Henry Sr. (& Indy's) Christian denomination! (Just thought the image was worth throwing into the mix to generate some conversation.)
That's right, it is irrelevant what he might have been in religious terms, mainly because Indy wasn't religious and if his father was it was only in a very obtuse sense: "The armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth." The quest for the grail for Henry Sr is a religious or more spiritual one, but I don't know of any nation's army that has god on their side.
In these online discussions, I would rather plumb Indy's academia and understand his perceptions of history and culture in human social development. "I'm going after a find of incredible historical significance...."
That's right, it is irrelevant what he might have been in religious terms, mainly because Indy wasn't religious and if his father was it was only in a very obtuse sense: "The armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth." The quest for the grail for Henry Sr is a religious or more spiritual one, but I don't know of any nation's army that has god on their side.
In these online discussions, I would rather plumb Indy's academia and understand his perceptions of history and culture in human social development. "I'm going after a find of incredible historical significance...."
I'd like to think that this was also the official case.
Indy knows there's functioning 'magic' on his earth, and his father, to complete the quote, said, "The quest for the grail is not archeology, it's a race against evil. If it is captured by the Nazis the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth. Do you understand me?"
Henry's "obsession" was rather a practical one: preventing the magical item from falling into the hands of the enemy.
Clue?
(Just thought the image was worth throwing into the mix to generate some conversation.)
