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Old 06-25-2011, 11:39 PM   #1
Montana Smith
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Military Insignia in the Indiana Jones films

As suggested by the venerable Rocket...

A thread to place together all information regarding military insignia seen in the four movies.

SS-Standartenführer (Colonel) Ernst Vogel of the SS-Verfügungstruppe Leibstandarte 'Adolf Hitler' (mot.) possibly shows the most insignia of any German soldier in the series.

The term 'Verfügungstruppe' or 'Combat/Order Troop' was applied to the armed SS until the term 'Waffen-SS' became a recognized title in February 1940.

The Leibstandarte was created as Hitler's bodyguard within the NSDAP, the first combat SS unit, separate from both the Heer (army) and the Sturmabteilung (SA, Brownshirts).

In this image you can clearly see the ribbon for an Iron Cross (2nd class) pinned to Vogel's tunic button.



1st class crosses were issued without ribbons, while the 2nd class was concealed within the tunic. The ribbon for a First World War cross had black and white stripes:



On the non-combatant award the stripes are reversed:



Since the First World War was the last conflict the Iron Cross was awarded in, before being reinstituted by Hitler on 1st September 1939, it is clear that Vogel was a World War I combat veteran.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
As suggested by the venerable Rocket...

A thread to place together all information regarding military insignia seen in the four movies.
EXCELLENT thread idea, Rocket! LOVE IT. Thanks for starting this, guys. I wanted to continue in Kooshmeister's thread: The other officer with Gobler but this is a much better place.

Montana Smiffy can obviously focus on the Germans and I can easily do the British & Indian troops since that is my area of expertise. (Please, leave them to me because I can't wait to finally expose a glaring goof about the Poona Rifles.) P Tom recently pegged some American uniforms in this thread: American uniforms, weapons and vehicles? so maybe he might want to contribute further? Someone else can tackle the Russians.

I started to try and identify all the insignia & uniforms from Young Indy but there was so many different types that I had to take a break. For anyone interested, check out these threads:

Belgium Unit?
Tunic used in the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
...it is clear that Vogel was a World War I combat veteran.
Like Vogel, good ol' Blumburtt also served during WWI. A few years back, I identifed all 4 of his medals. (Will post images soon). What a coincidence it would be if they were both at the same front line!
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:01 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Stoo
I can easily do the British & Indian troops since that is my area of expertise. (Please, leave them to me...

Looking forward to those posts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
P Tom recently pegged some American uniforms in this thread: American uniforms, weapons and vehicles? so maybe he might want to contribute further? Someone else can tackle the Russians.

Good idea. The more the merrier, to eventually cover all the uniforms in the series.

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Originally Posted by Stoo
I started to try and identify all the insignia & uniforms from Young Indy but there was so many different types that I had to take a break.

That would certainly be a mammoth task.
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Old 06-26-2011, 12:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Looking forward to those posts!

Good idea. The more the merrier, to eventually cover all the uniforms in the series.
Before that gets going, might as well continue with stuff that I already covered in the Gobler thread. Smiffy, feel free to add any extra information/observations (German names, etc.)!

As can be seen below, Dietrich's collar bars don't match with his epaulettes/shoulder boards:

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Old 06-26-2011, 01:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Before that gets going, might as well continue with stuff that I already covered in the Gobler thread. Smiffy, feel free to add any extra information/observations (German names, etc.)!

As can be seen below, Dietrich's collar bars don't match with his epaulettes/shoulder boards:

Dietrich's collar tabs (litzen) do look like the light green waffenfarbe for a Jäger or Gebirgsjäger, with the mis-matched infantry white shoulder boards. Possibly caused by the props department amending the rank of the tunic?

A bit more on Vogel:



His Party badge looks like the gold version (as was Toht's), making Vogel one of the first 100,000 NSDAP members:






He is also 'sporting' the SA Sports Badge in what appears to be gold. This was the political version of the German Sports Badge, and was introduced originally for the Sturmabteilung (SA, Storm Battalion, Brownshirts), but issued to every military branch.





The single oakleaf patch on each collar denotes the rank of SS-Standartenführer, and in some shots it's possible to see that the script on his cuff title reads “Adolf Hitler”.

(When Hasbro made their 3 3/4" figure of Vogel they replaced the title with 'Deutschland', which was the SS horse-drawn infantry regiment raised in Munich).



The braided aigullettes attached from his right shoulder don’t signify anything in Vogel's case, as Brian L. Davis writes in German Army Uniforms and Insignia 1933-1945, “German Army aigullettes were possibly the one item of uniform accoutrement that was worn purely for display purposes.”
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Old 06-26-2011, 03:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Dietrich's collar tabs (litzen) do look like the light green waffenfarbe for a Jäger or Gebirgsjäger, with the mis-matched infantry white shoulder boards. Possibly caused by the props department amending the rank of the tunic?
For those not in the know: "jäger" literally means "hunter" but in this case, Jäger = Infantry and Gebirgsjäger = Mountain Infantry/Mountain Riflemen. Both the Wehrmacht Heer (the regular German Army) and the Waffen SS had Mountain Infantry units, however, ALL the troops in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" are regular army and NOT part of the SS, hence, they are NOT Nazis (as they are so often mistakenly called).

Gobler's uniform suffered the same mis-match as Dietrich's:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
A bit more on Vogel:
For the sake of completeness, here's a link to your other thread where we discussed Vogel's different unifroms: Behind the scenes photos of Vogel's black uniform from Last Crusade?
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Dietrich's collar tabs (litzen) do look like the light green waffenfarbe for a Jäger or Gebirgsjäger, with the mis-matched infantry white shoulder boards. Possibly caused by the props department amending the rank of the tunic?

Were the tunics authentic? If so, I wonder whether any Gebirgsjager units were part of the Afrika Korps?
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:31 PM   #8
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Were the tunics authentic? If so, I wonder whether any Gebirgsjager units were part of the Afrika Korps?

Good thought.

Gebirgs-Infantrie Regiment (mot) 756 (part of 334 Infanterie Division) fought under the DAK in Tunisia in 1943.


http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3912

However, I was just reading this page of DAK uniforms: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.co...rshman/00.shtm

Quote:
Most [DAK] infantry was mechanized, and wore grass green waffenfarben.

That would cover Motorcycle Battalions and Panzergrenadiers, and was the same Wiesengrün (meadow-green) worn by Gebirgsjägers. However,

Quote:
The shoulder straps...were bordered with waffenfarben depicting the arm of service of the wearer.

So there should still be no mismatch between collar and shoulder.
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
In this image you can clearly see the ribbon for an Iron Cross (2nd class) pinned to Vogel's tunic button.
You got me with this one...like Elsa, I must be blind. Where is the ribbon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
I wanted to continue in Kooshmeister's thread...
Haven't seen this stuff since I joined, it would be a shame to loose it, and join Indy's Brother in limbo. There was no real progress as it were, glad to have a single place with some potential. Can't wait to read more of this! THIS is why I come to The Raven!

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Originally Posted by Stoo
Smiffy can obviously focus on the Germans and I can easily do the British & Indian troops...Someone else can tackle the Russians.
Here's your chance you Crystal Skull posers! You cry, cry, cry about Skull getting bashed and how much you love the movie, (yeah you, ya big monkey)...so show your true colors once and for all! PROVE that Crystal Skull belongs with the other three, that the movie is strong enough to get you off your sorry asses to dig into the minutia like these two REAL Indiana Jones fans!

On a lighter note, thanks for tackling this/embracing it guys. Thus stuff makes the old new again and is a great inspiration to me. I wouldn't even joke about this beeing in my wheelhouse/knowing much about it because it's just so frickin cool. Love having something REAL to read. I'll do my best to contribute...thanks again, the info so far is excellent. The images are so cool. I love the "Myth Busters" aspect as well...would have liked the Nazi element be confirmed, but it's better to know.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
You got me with this one...like Elsa, I must be blind. Where is the ribbon?

It's the black and white stripey thing below his tie and just above the cross strap of his Sam Browne belt. The ribbon is attached to a tunic button, with the cross concealed inside the tunic.

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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
THIS is why I come to The Raven!

It's fun, educational AND Indy related! I learn all sorts of things when I set about checking facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Here's your chance you Crystal Skull posers! You cry, cry, cry about Skull getting bashed and how much you love the movie, (yeah you, ya big monkey)...so show your true colors once and for all! PROVE that Crystal Skull belongs with the other three, that the movie is strong enough to get you off your sorry asses to dig into the minutia like these two REAL Indiana Jones fans!

The other day I learnt something that makes KOTCS just as historically inaccurate as it's predecessors, with regards to firearms. But we'd better keep this thread to insignia.

Quote:
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...would have liked the Nazi element be confirmed, but it's better to know.

How do you mean? Not quite with you on that. Do you mean the difference between soldiers and Party members in ROTLA?
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:47 AM   #11
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It's the black and white stripey thing below his tie and just above the cross strap of his Sam Browne belt. The ribbon is attached to a tunic button, with the cross concealed inside the tunic.
Ah...tough to make out without it being pointed out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It's fun, educational AND Indy related! I learn all sorts of things when I set about checking facts.
Easier than being Karl Pilkington.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
The other day I learnt something that makes KOTCS just as historically inaccurate as it's predecessors, with regards to firearms. But we'd better keep this thread to insignia.
Well theres ANOTHER thread that's right up your alley: Anachronisms...I know how you love pointing out time traveling Panzerschrecks and Afrika Korps! If you're won't start a new thread then tell us here for goodness sakes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
How do you mean? Not quite with you on that. Do you mean the difference between soldiers and Party members in ROTLA?
Just referring to soldiers as Nazis...though come to think of it, would you really know if they were in the Nazi Party or not? Isn't party affiliation (required or not) enough to classify them as such? What was the policy regarding military service and being a Nazi?
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Well theres ANOTHER thread that's right up your alley: Anachronisms...I know how you love pointing out time traveling Panzerschrecks and Afrika Korps! If you're won't start a new thread then tell us here for goodness sakes!

Now that you mention panzerschrecks, that makes three KOTCS anomalies! A quick search didn't reveal an appropriate KOTCS thread, so I'll post it in Smitty's Junk, as I'm looking at buying one of the articles in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Just referring to soldiers as Nazis...though come to think of it, would you really know if they were in the Nazi Party or not? Isn't party affiliation (required or not) enough to classify them as such? What was the policy regarding military service and being a Nazi?

Until July 1944 members of the German Wehrmacht (the Armed Forces comprising Heer, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe) were not permitted to join the Nazi Party. This was a concession which Hitler made to those generals who stood firm early on, to protect the military from becoming a political entity.

The Treaty of Versailles had limited the German Army to 100,000 men (the Reichswehr), but Hitler was also building his private political army: first the SA Brownshirts (the bully boys who made his election to Chancellor a little easier), then the SS (Schutzstaffel), which eventually comprised the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei), SD (Sicherheitsdienst - the SS Security Service), and administrators overseeing virtually ever aspect of state. There were various other Party affiliated units, such as the Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD, Reich Labour Service), Hitler Jugend (HJ, Hitler Youth) and so on.

The Party was pretty invasive, so the period 1933-1945 is referred to as the Nazi era. Yet, the German Army itself was a non-political body by law, and it's members couldn't join the Party even if they wanted to. Though that didn't mean that they weren't sympathetic. There were exceptions, in that a Nazi Party member could join the Wehrmacht without forfeiting their membership. But a soldier could not join the NSDAP.

After the 20 July 1944 bomb, when Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg came so close to killing Hitler at his bunker, the Wolfsschanze, the Führer was enraged enough to overturn the ban, thereby allowing soldiers to join to Party.
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:19 PM   #13
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The Party was pretty invasive, so the period 1933-1945 is referred to as the Nazi era. Yet, the German Army itself was a non-political body by law, and it's members couldn't join the Party even if they wanted to. Though that didn't mean that they weren't sympathetic. There were exceptions, in that a Nazi Party member could join the Wehrmacht without forfeiting their membership. But a soldier could not join the NSDAP.
So it's possible that on such a special mission for the Fürer he could have assembled soldiers who were already party members?

This particular type of mission maybe more so...?
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
So it's possible that on such a special mission for the Fürer he could have assembled soldiers who were already party members?

This particular type of mission maybe more so...?

It would be possible to handpick members who had later joined the army, but if the mission was that special and personal to the Führer I would imagine he would have used members of the SS (who in 1936 would have been fully vetted and indoctrinated - Aryan ancestry checked back to 1750 and such).

I get the feeling in ROTLA that only the officers know what they're after. Using the regular army minimizes the political significance of the mission, though it didn't fool US Military Intelligence!
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It would be possible to handpick members who had later joined the army, but if the mission was that special and personal to the Führer I would imagine he would have used members of the SS (who in 1936 would have been fully vetted and indoctrinated - Aryan ancestry checked back to 1750 and such).

I get the feeling in ROTLA that only the officers know what they're after. Using the regular army minimizes the political significance of the mission, though it didn't fool US Military Intelligence!

What I'm getting at is that it's POSSIBLE all the soldiers/officers were Nazis...yea?

What we have to consider is Spielbergs view of Hitler, Hitlers view of Hitler, and everyone else's view of Spielberg and Hitler's views!
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:05 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
What I'm getting at is that it's POSSIBLE all the soldiers/officers were Nazis...yea?

What we have to consider is Spielbergs view of Hitler, Hitlers view of Hitler, and everyone else's view of Spielberg and Hitler's views!

That's always been possible at the level that they were sympathetic to the Party. But the fact that we can't be sure, because they aren't wearing Nazi uniforms, creates an interesting situation: the creators didn't choose the obvious route, and they even filmed that scene with the soldier who couldn't bring himself to execute Sallah.

Spielberg has a vested interest in hating Hitler, but presumably not in hating Germans (considering Mr. Play Mountain's surname!) It looks as though he was going to present a sympathetic angle with the Sallah non-execution, but likely realized that this in turn would compromise Indy's actions. The next time Indy meets the Germans it is significant that they're from Hitler's bodyguard.

Though something went amiss with the costuming department (or the SS were suffering clothing shortages):



This SS soldier is wearing Heer uniform. The armband is a very pulpy addition, seen often in comic books worn with a combat uniform to easily denote allegiance, or more precisely, to denote villainy.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 06-27-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
A bit more on Vogel:



His Party badge looks like the gold version (as was Toht's), making Vogel one of the first 100,000 NSDAP members:






He is also 'sporting' the SA Sports Badge in what appears to be gold. This was the political version of the German Sports Badge, and was introduced originally for the Sturmabteilung (SA, Storm Battalion, Brownshirts), but issued to every military branch.





The single oakleaf patch on each collar denotes the rank of SS-Standartenführer, and in some shots it's possible to see that the script on his cuff title reads “Adolf Hitler”.

(When Hasbro made their 3 3/4" figure of Vogel they replaced the title with 'Deutschland', which was the SS horse-drawn infantry regiment raised in Munich).



The braided aigullettes attached from his right shoulder don’t signify anything in Vogel's case, as Brian L. Davis writes in German Army Uniforms and Insignia 1933-1945, “German Army aigullettes were possibly the one item of uniform accoutrement that was worn purely for display purposes.”
He later wears his NSDAP badge on his scarf of his summer uniform.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Good thought.

Gebirgs-Infantrie Regiment (mot) 756 (part of 334 Infanterie Division) fought under the DAK in Tunisia in 1943.


http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3912

However, I was just reading this page of DAK uniforms: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.co...rshman/00.shtm



That would cover Motorcycle Battalions and Panzergrenadiers, and was the same Wiesengrün (meadow-green) worn by Gebirgsjägers. However,



So there should still be no mismatch between collar and shoulder.


I agree there should be no mismatch, I was just trying to determine whether the change had been made to the collar or shoulders. Given the info you posted, I am tending to agree that it was probably the shoulder boards that were changed.

Thanks for the links!
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Stalhein
He later wears his NSDAP badge on his scarf of his summer uniform.



As the Golden Party Badges were presented in matched pairs, one smaller than the other designed for wear on the lapel, I wonder if that's what he's wearing on the scarf?

Quote:
The NSDAP’s Golden Party Badge was initially instituted by Hitler on 13. November, 1933. It was originally intended for NSDAP members with the Party numbers from 1 to 100,000. To obtain this decoration, it was necessary for the Party member to have had unbroken membership. Termination date for presentation of the decoration was 1. May, 1935. On 30. January, 1938, Hitler permitted each Gauleiter the right to nominate five Party members to receive the decoration and on 1. December, 1939, membership was extended to NSDAP members in Austria or the Ostmark. Hitler also presented this decoration to non-Party members, and on 30.January, 1937, he presented the Golden Party Badge to Field Marshal von Blomberg, Colonel General Freiherr von Fritsch, General Admiral Raeder, and General Milch., Also presented to the CIC Army, Generaloberst, (later Field Marshal) Walter von Brauchitsch in March of 1939 as an honorarium for the performance of the German army during German occupation of Prague on March 15, 1939. The decoration was made of gilded bronze with the party insignia set in an oakleaf wreath. These decorations existed as a number of production pieces. Generally, the decoration with the broad, vertical pins were designed for military uniforms while the standard issue had thin horizontal pins. A smaller version of this decoration was designed to be worn on the lapel of civilian dress. The uniform decoration was 24 to 30 mm wide and the smaller version was 18 to 24 mm wide. Military decorations generally carried the recused marking GES GESCH just under the upper pin base and there was an inset bar running horizontally across the pin with a round hole in the center. The hole was designed to allow the enameled badge to be soldered to the brass gilded base. The number of the holder was hand-stamped onto the reverse just above the bottom catch of the pin..

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2868.htm

Here are pictures, taken from the same page, showing the set presented to Generaloberst Walther von Brauchitsch:








In Behind the scenes photos of Vogel's black uniform from Last Crusade? you made the point that "...his aiguilettes are black, rather than silver."

Now that's something I can't find anything about. My only suggestion at present is that since they don't signify anything, they were a private purchase in the colour of his choice. I'd really like to know where the originated from.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:44 AM   #20
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Somewhere in a Berlin alleyway there's an Artillerie Oberst (Army Artillery Colonel) in his underwear...





]

The shoulder straps appear to be these:



And the collar tabs these:



Red signifies the Artillery branch of the armed forces.

Anachronistically, since this is 1938, the officer had been awarded the 1939 Iron Cross 2nd Class, denoted by the red, white and black striped ribbon attached to Indy's second tunic button. This award wasn't created until 1st September 1939.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:58 AM   #21
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A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:



I always felt that it is a glaring omission that Hitler's military cap is missing the cockade and oakleaf wreath insignia which should be on the front of the cap, just as same as the cap Indy is wearing. Either the insignia is missing or wearing the military cap without the insignia is also the norm within the German Army.
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Tom
A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:

Feel free, this is a thread welcoming as much input as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P Tom
I always felt that it is a glaring omission that Hitler's military cap is missing the cockade and oakleaf wreath insignia which should be on the front of the cap, just as same as the cap Indy is wearing. Either the insignia is missing or wearing the military cap without the insignia is also the norm within the German Army.

It is yet another glaring historical inaccuracy!

In this forum it was suggested by one member that

Quote:
Apparently the costume designer was using pics from prior to 1937, when the reichskokarden was added to his visor cap.

Here's a shot of Hitler at the 1936 Berlin Olympics...



EDIT:

Forgot to check my original propaganda postcard,



which I can now date to 1937 or before.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 06-28-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:33 PM   #23
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Details, details, details!

Great posts, you do not disappoint!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Somewhere in a Berlin alleyway there's an Artillerie Oberst (Army Artillery Colonel) in his underwear...
]

Ha, and since you cleared a few things up, it seems Indy was fastidious enough to tuck HIS ribbon in...!
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Old 06-28-2011, 01:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Great posts, you do not disappoint!

I try not to. This is a fun exercise!


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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Ha, and since you cleared a few things up, it seems Indy was fastidious enough to tuck HIS ribbon in...!

He even had the forethought to pick up next season's design!
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Ah...tough to make out without it being pointed out.
Amateur!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smiffy
Somewhere in a Berlin alleyway there's an Artillerie Oberst (Army Artillery Colonel) in his underwear...

Red signifies the Artillery branch of the armed forces.
During the Gobler thread, I found a German artillery soldier in "Raiders". Since that time, I've found another one for a total of (at least) two! (Photos to follow.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTom
A thread for the military insignias in Indy movies? Cool! Then don't mind if I comment on this:
PTom, I made a call out to you in post #2 for more info about the American uniforms in "Skull". Perhaps you missed it? Your contributions would be most welcome.
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