Do you think the Indiana Jones film plots have ever touched on philosophy in any way, or were they just history and adventure with a little bit of romance?
"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Doctor Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall".
from Indiana Jones and the last crusade
Of course more can be read into Indy than them just being action-adventure pieces (particularly LC) but i think the thing is that the fan base at the moment just arent looking, which is a pity
As for the apparent rejection of the concept of archaeology as philosophy in LC, that view is completely thrown away in the movie 'the search for the grail is not archaeology'
Marcus- "The search for the holy grail is the search for the divine in all of us."
Henry- "The serach for the grail is not archeology, it's a race against evil".
There's some philosophy, although a little too specefic for some to call it so.
"phi·los·o·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-las-a-fee)
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies
1)Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2)Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods."
Given these two definitions I would have to say no, there is no philosophy either implied or implicit.
Well, what about how Belloq compares himself to Indy, saying that he is a shadowy reflection of him?
Also, what about the conversation at the end when Indy is pointing the Bazooka at the Ark? "Indiana... we are only passing through history. This... this is history."
When I want to veg out and adventure vicariously, I put an Indy movie in. When I want philosophy, I read the Bible. Needless to say, I don't do much else in my free time.
Well, I agree mostly with the notion that Indiana Jones isn't about philosophy. I just thought it'd be nice to start a somewhat fresh thread. Thanks for the input!
Don't get me wrong, Hovitosking. Indy has inspired conversations on every thing to science and religion, and deep conversations at that. I just find the notions of truth in the movies ambiguous enough to kabosh much analysis. I like this thread and hope it continues.
I'm not an expert when it comes to philosophy, but I took a philosophy class and my teacher said you can find philoosophy in virtually any movie you see (I did papers about A Clockwork Orange and Singing in the Rain and got A's )
Off hand, one thing comes to mind is maybe Appearance versus Reality which is explained in Plato's Cave story. If you don't know it, the story is about a bunch of prisoners chained in a cave all their life. All they can do is stare at the wall and nothing else because that's only their field of vision. Whenever someone passes by, they cast a shadow on the wall and the prisoners believe that is "real." One person escapes and sees what our world is like. He goes back in and tells his fellow prisoners what he has seen but they don't believe him since all they've known for their lives are the shadows. (This also applies to the Matrix)
Maybe this could apply to Raiders since the US Government (or at least agents at the meeting) doesn't believe in the Ark. All their life they've only seen our world, but not the supernatural level and they can't accept that. If they did believe, they've would have examined it right away. We can assume they've only taken it because if it did have any power, they didn't want the Nazis to get it first. Indy is the one who stepped out of the Cave and saw what is real.
Of course, that may be stretching it. I might come up with a better one later.
Originally posted by apalehorse "phi·los·o·phy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-las-a-fee)
n. pl. phi·los·o·phies
1)Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2)Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods."
Given these two definitions I would have to say no, there is no philosophy either implied or implicit.
[Edited by apalehorse on 11-10-2003 at 09:37 am]
Uuuh, dude, you just described what Indiana lives for. Would you not call what he does, Self-Discipline? Henry was raised by his father, the most philisophic man in the movie series. He has everything to do with philosophy.
Maybe there is a misunderstaning about what HovitosKing means about philosophy. To demonstarte my point, can someone please pull me a philosophical concept from the movie that can be discussed in philosophical terms, as presented in the movie.
Jones may very well be philosophical (therein, there is philosophy in the movie). If we are to pursue this type of arguementation, we get into the metaphysical ramifications of what "IN INDIANA JONES" means. According to HovitosKing the real (subject to interpretation) question was:
Quote:
HovitosKing
Indyfan
Do you think the Indiana Jones film plots have ever touched on philosophy in any way, or were they just history and adventure..."
But there are no philosophical concepts presented and discussed in the trilogy, esp in terms of plot.
I will concede that the concept of God is mildly addresssed by Indy in both RotLA and LC, especially when it comes to what faith is, but "faith in God" is not a plot point, or conflict hindering Indy.
Philosophy involves refutation and arguementation. (Something not unfamiliar here at the Raven) Faith in God is neither argued or denied. If you try to argue that philosophy is presented in Indy, especially at the 'invisible bridge', I will argue that Indy only acts the way he does NOT because he is wrestling with the philosophical concept of faith, but because he is trying to restore his relationship with his father. In addition, I will use the following dialogue with his dad to substantiate my point:
Quote:
HENRY
Elsa never really believed in the
Grail. She thought she'd found a
prize.
INDY
What did vou find, Dad?
HENRY
Me?... Illumination.
HENRY and INDY mount their horses. Henry turns back to his son.
HENRY
What did you find, Junior?
there is no answer to this question...no thoughtfull remark, nothing. Only the joke about junior...
If your life was placed in a giant amount of jeapordy, and your faith was questioned, how would you react? After Indy's dad was shot, Donovan made a remark, as i cannot remember it word for word. "It is time you ask yourself what you believe in...". In time, Indy realizes that what his dad was fighting for wasn't only for fortune or glory or any of that crap, it was for "a race against evil". Indy, in the end, was most likley "illuminated", as you say. Only a fool wouldn't believe after his dad, shot, was revived again. Indy fought for not only justice, but as a messenger from God. Architechture added to the plot, as the fact that the cup of christ would be a carpenter's, not one crested with jewels. Tell me, if you came face to face with a holy medeival knight, would you believe?
With all due respect, you are still discussing the metaphysical ramifications of whether Indiana Jones has faith. That is, (coming from the ontological ideals formulated by Aristotle) the study of the ultimate nature of being.
In that concept our esteemed members bob
Quote:
bob
Of course more can be read into Indy than them just being action-adventure pieces (particularly LC) but i think the thing is that the fan base at the moment just arent looking, which is a pity.
and westford
Quote:
westford
Philosophy is everywhere and nowhere. Look too hard and you'll miss it.
both demonstrate in their response that philosophy is present in the movies. Based on this line of thinking I will argue both that the God exists and that Dinosaurs are alive, because we all saw movies with them in it, therefore they are existing in a tangible concieveable way and are real.
But again, let us go back to HovitosKing's question
Quote:
HovitosKing
Indyfan
Do you think the Indiana Jones film plots have ever touched on philosophy in any way, or were they just history and adventure..."
Any screenwriter will tell you faith is not a plot point, it is not essential to the climaxing action of the movie, anymore then:[list=a][*]Elsa believeing that the grail diary shouldn't be burned[*]Jones adhearing to the staff of Ra height, because it is a product of titheing[*]Sallah advocating a big family will stave of the Third Riech[*]Marion argueing that too much iron will cause a headache[*]Wu Han and company teaching that bad steak causes heartburn[*]Willie supporting the ban on animal testing of cosmetics[*]Fedora is the Angel that saves Indiana from the Lions den[*]Short Round supports the cause of child labor; personally and globally[*]Brody purports the theroy that alzheimers and driving is...what was I ranting about[/list=a]
Philosophical concepts such as:
instrumentialism
hermeneutics
existentialism
monism
egoism
esthetics
and countless others are not addressed or manifested in the plotline of the film. As Dr. Tyree put it above
Quote:
Dr. Tyree
Indyfan
"Archaeology is the search for fact. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Doctor Tyree's Philosophy class is right down the hall".
(still metaphysical, in terms of "IN INDIANA JONES")
The fact is, there is NO philosophy in the PLOT of the film.
)
