...in order to win all of those awards?
I wonder what her specific achievements were, or if she could have done anything except discoveries in parapsychology.
...in order to win all of those awards?
I wonder what her specific achievements were, or if she could have done anything except discoveries in parapsychology.
I think it was parapsychology related. She probably discovered secret enemy bases using her long distance viewing skills.
She might, of course, just have slept with Uncle Joe.
Spalko is said to be in her mid-thirties in the novel, which could mean she was born around 1922. So when the Great Patriotic War began in 1941 she would have been old enough to play a part.
The war diaries of Irina Spalko, Stalin's 'fair-haired girl', might make interesting reading.
In KOTCS we never saw much of her powers beyond telepathy, and she fought Mutt with her sword, rather than use any form of 'psychic attack'. In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie Spalko turns out to be quite understated, which puts her alongside other villains such as Toht, Belloq, Donovan, or Vogel. Mola Ram seemed to have more physical supernatural abilities - the heart removal trick (unless that was just a sleight of hand).
In KOTCS we never saw much of her powers beyond telepathy, ... In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie Spalko turns out to be quite understated,
This is one of my biggest disappointments, character-wise. And I don't really see her using telepathy, either. She comes across as a fraud, to me. Or a nut.
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...which puts her alongside other villains such as Toht, Belloq, Donovan, or Vogel.
I might agree on the Donovan thing, but Toht did more with his fairly small role, and was much scarier. Belloq was far from "understated." But you go on to say...
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Mola Ram seemed to have more physical supernatural abilities - the heart removal trick (unless that was just a sleight of hand).
So, maybe by understated, you mean "no supernatural powers." Since Mola would be the exception to the rule (if it's not slight-of-hand), then why parcel up groups? All you really have is Mola Ram and... every other villain.
But I love that you mention the possible slight-of-hand thing. There's never a real answer to it, and it's far cooler being a mystery. If they had found a similar way to play Spalko's supposed mental powers, THAT would have been interesting.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying overall is, "In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie" is a phrase that suggests Indy villains are usually more grand, less... fuzzy (10 points for IDing that reference). But actually, in the realm of an Indiana Jones movie, villains are usually quite grounded and normal.
I might agree on the Donovan thing, but Toht did more with his fairly small role, and was much scarier. Belloq was far from "understated." But you go on to say...
So, maybe by understated, you mean "no supernatural powers." Since Mola would be the exception to the rule (if it's not slight-of-hand), then why parcel up groups? All you really have is Mola Ram and... every other villain.
Yes, I was struggling to think of the best way to explain what I meant earlier! My brain was struggling into first gear.
What I meant was that Spalko turned out to be quite normal - such as other non-supernatural villains (Toht, Belloq, Donovan, Vogel etc). Toht was the epitome of human evil. Belloq's high intellect made him the match of Indy. Donovan was an ambitious collector. Vogel was literally a brutal Nazi.
And Spalko... well, she's an accomplished swordswoman who failed to read Indy's mind. I haven't finished reading the novelization yet, so maybe there's more background to her abilities there. I presume she located Hangar 51 through remote viewing.
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Originally Posted by Chewbacca Jones
But I love that you mention the possible slight-of-hand thing. There's never a real answer to it, and it's far cooler being a mystery. If they had found a similar way to play Spalko's supposed mental powers, THAT would have been interesting.
Indy is always skeptical about the supernatural, even after he's witnessed something that can't be explained. Even after witnessing the power of the Ark, he remains skeptical about the power of the Grail, until he's seen it with his own eyes. I suppose that makes him the perfect empirical explorer. He senses there's something more to Spalko, though he doesn't let her think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbacca Jones
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying overall is, "In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie" is a phrase that suggests Indy villains are usually more grand, less... fuzzy (10 points for IDing that reference). But actually, in the realm of an Indiana Jones movie, villains are usually quite grounded and normal.
By 'in the realm of' I was referring to Indiana Jones movies being full of supernatural elements - and in the realm of a series of supernatural movies, Spalko turned out to be quite understated. Which is odd, considering that so much more could have been made of her character. Which brings us back to the start of this thread: what did she do in the past that earned her the Order of Lenin?
She used her arms her legs her style her side step her fingers her her her imagination. She made them see there's nobody else there, no one like her. She's special, so special, she had to have some their attention...
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Spalko is said to be in her mid-thirties in the novel, which could mean she was born around 1922. So when the Great Patriotic War began in 1941 she would have been old enough to play a part.
The war diaries of Irina Spalko, Stalin's 'fair-haired girl', might make interesting reading.
Here's what "Ultimate Guide" says:
Raised in a superstitious Ukranian village, where here psychic abilities led to her being branded a "witch", Irina Spalko was handpicked by Stalin to oversee research into psychic warfare. A former member of the KGB's Science and Technology Directorate, Spalko has been decorated with the Order of Lenin. Her powers of intuition have taken her a long way from the experiments she performed on animals as a teenager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
In KOTCS we never saw much of her powers beyond telepathy, and she fought Mutt with her sword, rather than use any form of 'psychic attack'. In the realm of an Indiana Jones movie Spalko turns out to be quite understated, which puts her alongside other villains such as Toht, Belloq, Donovan, or Vogel. Mola Ram seemed to have more physical supernatural abilities - the heart removal trick (unless that was just a sleight of hand).
Matt, just wanted to ask if you've only seen the U.K. censored version of "Doom"? Some months ago, the heart scene was being discussed and there was huge minunderstanding because some Ravenheads were not even aware of the censored shots. It's no "sleight of hand".
Raised in a superstitious Ukranian village, where here psychic abilities led to her being branded a "witch", Irina Spalko was handpicked by Stalin to oversee research into psychic warfare. A former member of the KGB's Science and Technology Directorate, Spalko has been decorated with the Order of Lenin. Her powers of intuition have taken her a long way from the experiments she performed on animals as a teenager.
Well, that's a tantalizing glimpse of Spalko's past. Wonder what she did to the animals? I have a book on Soviet psychic warfare - will have to see what it says on this subject...
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Matt, just wanted to ask if you've only seen the U.K. censored version of "Doom"? Some months ago, the heart scene was being discussed and there was huge minunderstanding because some Ravenheads were not even aware of the censored shots. It's no "sleight of hand".
I've just watched my DVD again: Mola's fingers are not shown penetrating the victim's flesh. You just see him turn round holding a bleeding and still beating heart. There's wound on the victim during that scene or when you see the cage tip backwards. It appears like sleight of hand in this version, as its the same thing witch doctors do when they say they're removing evil or cancer from a body - apart from the still beating heart!
I forgot about that. And I've never seen the UK version! In my own defense, I don't watch ToD that much, anyway. So, I take back comments agreeing to a possible slight-of-hand trick.
I never saw that version before. This version cuts out the bit where we see the cage tilt backwards and the victim is seen to be unwounded. Do we see his hand go inside the victim's body? It's too dark to make out. There's a squelching sound, indicating that they do.
So Mola Ram must be one of Indy's true supernatural villains. Which means Spalko should have been able to show off more of her paranormal skills.
I think Spalko achieved her rank and got her reputation by manufacturing evidence against her class mates, rivals and enemies securing herself a reputation by eliminating those with contrary opinions.
She seemed one not to get her hands dirty, and appears to be simply a manipulator as J Edgar Hoover was here in the US.
I can see her having it out with a fellow cadet who in a conversation she initially spies on brands her a bitch, the other cadet says witch and she uses this perception in her Machiavellian ascent within the party.
Last edited by Rocket Surgeon : 11-22-2009 at 10:08 AM.
I assumed Spalko was good at tracking down dissidents who fled the USSR and eliminated them. Being so good at finding people that seemed to have disappeared probably helped her reputation as a psychic, whether or not she actually was psychic.
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 6,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
Well, that's a tantalizing glimpse of Spalko's past. Wonder what she did to the animals? I have a book on Soviet psychic warfare - will have to see what it says on this subject...
Maybe she was able to make animals fight each other, similar to Chuck Heston and Jimmy Franciscus were made to do in "Beneath the Planet of the Apes"? Or made their heads explode like in David Croenenbeg's "Scanners"!
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Originally Posted by Montana Smith
So Mola Ram must be one of Indy's true supernatural villains. Which means Spalko should have been able to show off more of her paranormal skills.
It could also mean that Spalko was simply a charlatan who had fooled everyone. It would interesting to hear what your book has to say about "psychic warfare".
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Originally Posted by Chewbacca Jones
I forgot about that. And I've never seen the UK version! In my own defense, I don't watch ToD that much, anyway. So, I take back comments agreeing to a possible slight-of-hand trick.
Chewie! How could you forget about that?!? Not to take things off track but one thing that's evident is that the censored version has formed a, somewhat, alternate point-of-view of the film within the minds of U.K. viewers, which is unfortunate.
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
She seemed one not to get her hands dirty, and appears to be simply a manipulator as J Edgar Hoover was here in the US.
We need a good screengrab of her dossier from "Skull". I wonder if there are any clues in the fine print...
We need a good screengrab of her dossier from "Skull". I wonder if there are any clues in the fine print...
I gave it a shot, and on DVD it's unintelligible...It seems they used some lite paper stock and the content of the second page make it even harder to see.
Maybe she was able to make animals fight each other, similar to Chuck Heston and Jimmy Franciscus were made to do in "Beneath the Planet of the Apes"? Or made their heads explode like in David Croenenbeg's "Scanners"!
It could also mean that Spalko was simply a charlatan who had fooled everyone. It would interesting to hear what your book has to say about "psychic warfare".
Okay, the book is 'Psychic Discoveries: The Iron Curtain Lifted', by Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Ostrander, 1997.
It's not the sort of book I normally read, but I picked it up after watching KOTCS (along with a book on CIA Psychic Warfare).
References to animals are as follows:
Testing ESP from a submarine using a mother rabbit and her newborn litter. Scientists placed baby rabbits aboard the submarine and kept the mother in a laboratory on shore where they implanted electrodes in her brain. When the sub was deep below the surface of the ocean, the young rabbits were killed one by one. At each synchronized instant of death her brain reacted.
There is also a report of telepathy between humans and animals - a showman by the name of Vladimir Durov who could allegedly communicate telepathically, He trained over 1500 animals including dogs, bears, an anteater, camels, roosters, foxes, rats, cats, raccoons, which all performed in his 'Animal Theatre'. He did away with the traditional Russian method of training animals by fear and brute punishment, and instead used a special kind of wordless, signless communication, without ultrasonic whistles.
At Kharkov University's Neurology Institute rats were killed by drugs and their brains placed in solution. Psychics were brought in to communicate with the dead rat brains and they reacted. Dead rat brains responded to emoptions such as lauighter for about three minutes.
Some of the most ultraclandestine KGB projects for developing psycic weapons were undertaken at a secret lab inside the Filatov Eye Institute in Odessa. Dr A.V. Kalinets-Bryukhanov, president of the All-Union Scientific Research Association, bombarded animal brains with specific pulsed magnetic fields. He claims the animals developed clairvoyance and could literally see through walls. But their paranormal powers were brief. Soon their brains disintegrated and they all died. Death-row prisoners went through similar tests with the same outcome.
Okay, the book is 'Psychic Discoveries: The Iron Curtain Lifted', by Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Ostrander, 1997.
This is actually an update of the authors' 1970 book, "Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain". It was a fairly popular work on the subject and no doubt played a large role in shaping the character of Irina Spalko. (The rabbit experiment was even incorporated into one of her deleted scenes.)
I think Spalko's psychic tendencies were simply intended to provide historical context- as opposed to presenting her as some kind of supernatural foe. Mola Ram was a high priest who dabbled in black magic. Irina Spalko was a Russian officer who believed in her intuition. There's quite a difference there.
She could've had a good success rate under controlled conditions, but that's not something that would necessarily be useful in the field. Aside from, perhaps, guessing which direction Akator was in, she was never going to suddenly morph into Jean Gray.
This is actually an update of the authors' 1970 book, "Psychic Discoveries Behind The Iron Curtain". It was a fairly popular work on the subject and no doubt played a large role in shaping the character of Irina Spalko. (The rabbit experiment was even incorporated into one of her deleted scenes.)
As I said, it's not the sort of book I would normally pick up, but having just watched KOTCS, and because the guy was offering 5 books for £1 just to clear them out, I bought it. It's interesting to hear that the rabbit experiment was going to be referred to in KOTCS - which script was that in? Is it in the novel? (I'm only a hundred pages into the novelization).
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Originally Posted by James
I think Spalko's psychic tendencies were simply intended to provide historical context- as opposed to presenting her as some kind of supernatural foe. Mola Ram was a high priest who dabbled in black magic. Irina Spalko was a Russian officer who believed in her intuition. There's quite a difference there.
She could've had a good success rate under controlled conditions, but that's not something that would necessarily be useful in the field.
So, you see Spalko more as a researcher/investigator into the paranormal, rather than a full-blown possessor of paranormal abilities. That makes her historically plausible.
I found it funny that Uri Geller wrote the Foreword to the 'Psychic Discoveries' book, as Uri has since been pretty well debunked as a fake. There was also a documentary on Geller a few years back where he was on hoiliday with his family, and was trying to say that their hotel room number was mystically significant, whilst another family member was trying to tell him he had the wrong number! Later he went up into a bell tower and said he could make the bells ring by the power of his mind - it turned out they rang on the hour anyway!
With that in mind, it does place Spalko alongside other Indy villains (excepting Mola Ram, unless he never broke the victim's skin - still want to see a clear shot of 'the moment').
But, should we read more into 'The Ultimate Guide' that Stoo quoted from: "Raised in a superstitious Ukranian village, where her psychic abilities led to her being branded a "witch...Her powers of intuition have taken her a long way from the experiments she performed on animals as a teenager."
In history there are cases where superstitious villagers have accused simple herbalists of witchcraft. Yet, the Guide states that she possessed 'psychic abilities' which appear linked to her 'powers of intuition'. This would seem to suggest that Spalko possessed telelpathic abilities, that she could control animals by the power of her brain (though maybe not so well with people, as her failure to read Indy's mind demonstrated).
Intuition also suppoeses that she instinctively knew how animals and people might act in any given situation, which would also be politically advantageous, making her rise to prominence even faster. Yet, she required Mac to leave a trail of tracking beacons for her to follow, which, again, implies that Spalko's powers were quite limited, that she was really more a very cunning, and intuitive foe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Aside from, perhaps, guessing which direction Akator was in, she was never going to suddenly morph into Jean Gray.
The closest she gets is her final scene. Maybe if there is an Indy V she will return like a Phoenix from the flames...
Last edited by Montana Smith : 11-26-2009 at 02:00 AM.
a phrase that suggests Indy villains are usually more grand, less... fuzzy (10 points for IDing that reference).
Willow, another creation from George Lucas (and also featuring Pat Roach). Where can I redeem the ten points?
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Originally Posted by Sharkey
She used her arms her legs her style her side step her fingers her her her imagination. She made them see there's nobody else there, no one like her. She's special, so special, she had to have some their attention...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
I never saw that version before. This version cuts out the bit where we see the cage tilt backwards and the victim is seen to be unwounded. Do we see his hand go inside the victim's body? It's too dark to make out. There's a squelching sound, indicating that they do.
THere's a bit more, indeed (as you've probably guessed from the edits in the YouTube video). In the actual movie there's even a shot of the victim's wound closing back up again after his heart is removed.
It's interesting to hear that the rabbit experiment was going to be referred to in KOTCS - which script was that in? Is it in the novel?
So, you see Spalko more as a researcher/investigator into the paranormal, rather than a full-blown possessor of paranormal abilities. That makes her historically plausible.
But, should we read more into 'The Ultimate Guide' that Stoo quoted from: "Raised in a superstitious Ukranian village, where her psychic abilities led to her being branded a "witch...Her powers of intuition have taken her a long way from the experiments she performed on animals as a teenager."
It's in both the novelization and final shooting script. A still from the scene was also included in the trading card set.
No, I still view Spalko as a character with psychic ability. I'm just not sure how useful it would've really been to her fieldwork. The fact that she knows things "before anyone else" implies some type of precognitive skill other than telepathy. Perhaps she experienced frequent dreams or visions?
This could explain how she acquired the reputation of a "witch", as well as her high success rate in the military. It would not be something she had a lot of conscious control over in the field, but could greatly aid her preparation for a mission. (Who's to say the discovery of Hangar 51- or the other Russian crash sites- weren't the result of some clairvoyant effort on her part?)
I just think that introductory scene between Spalko and Indy was simply to establish the psychic nature of the adventure- as opposed to presenting her as a supernatural foe. One simple gesture reveals the Soviet belief in parapsychology- and the fact that Spalko may or may not possess a degree of skill herself- while also setting up the later interrogation scene between Indy and the skull.
Yet there's no reason to expect Spalko to suddenly have a whole slew of powers, such as a psychokinetic ability to open the hangar doors. (An idea that was often mentioned in fan reviews/criticism.) At best, I suppose they could've had her go into a trance to follow Indy to Akator. But given how determined Spalko is, it seems unlikely she would've relied on such a subtle method. Instead of viewing the tracers as proof that Spalko was a fraud, what if it was simply her "Plan B"?
Instead of viewing the tracers as proof that Spalko was a fraud, what if it was simply her "Plan B"?
I personally never viewed the tracers as proof that Spalko was a fraud, but rather as a really poor attempt by the screenplay to scrounge up some kind of jolt through Mac's final betrayal, consistency or logic with anything that came before it be damned. There were a hundred acceptable ways to explain how Spalko got to Akator from the conclusion of the ant attack, if one was even necessary at all. I do, however think that there was a generally baffled reaction from viewers over the psychic element of the story that this discussion is indicative of, and I think a much better handling of it would have really helped the film.
I get that Spalko being slightly arrogant and a little too sure of her capabilities is a deliberate aspect of her character, but I think it was important to establish that on some level Spalko genuinely has psychic powers, and the movie never actually does that, much to its own disservice I think. True, the fact that she's right about the skull's powers lends her other claims some credence, but I think the film's final cut leaves it way too ambiguous about whether or not Spalko was just some nutcase who happened to be incidentally right about this one thing. That's exactly why Temple of Doom gives us the sacrifice scene straight up, because it's important to the story that the audience understands that the movie takes place in a world where black magic and functional voodoo dolls exists and you can rip a guy's heart out of his chest and keep him alive. In that movie, Indy's stubborn disbelief is just a trademark of his character, but in Crystal Skull we really have no reason to disbelieve him or General Ross when they regard Spalko as a loon. In comparison to the equivalent scene in Temple of Doom, the skull interrogation is weak for what it's trying to accomplish from a story perspective, even if it's also an orgasm of great B-movie imagery.
Retrospectively, lines like, "The skull doesn't speak to everyone, it seems" and Spalko's failed attempt to read Indy's mind in the prologue are actually very important plot-wise, but they don't have the intended effect because the audience has no reason to trust a word Spalko is saying. (In the deleted scene, Mac's seemingly redundant line about the skull being "Choosy about who it speaks to" is actually really important because it's coming from someone objective on the subject, whereas I don't think anyone picked up on Spalko's line in the tent.) Temple has the pivotal moment where we're informed that the Thuggee magic can be taken at face value. Crystal Skull leaves you still trying to figure it out...well, 18 months later, and since the way the movie depicts the communication between Indy/Oxley and the skull isn't particularly strong either, it all just comes across as the movie wanting the skull's powers to be whatever it's convenient to be at the time - like impromptu ant repellent or a sufficient motivation for Indy to proceed to Akator. There was potential to make the psychic stuff work way more in the movie's favor, but by the third act the movie lost complete interest in going anywhere with it. For the record, I agree with your assessment that Spalko is intended to be viewed as having some real psychic powers. I just think that through weak writing and judicious editing the original intent was mucked up beyond recognition.
As far as the tracers, the real issue it brings up for me is the (intentionally?) incomprehensible arrangement that Mac has with the Russians. In the movie I saw, Spalko was cheerfully trying to push the car with Indy and Mac in it off of a cliff. Consider the ramifications.
Last edited by Udvarnoky : 11-27-2009 at 12:03 AM.
Yes, I do think the decision to include the tracers was really more about Mac's character than Spalko's. I also agree TOD does a better job of using its chief villain to lend credence to the immediate threat. There's a clear need to get the children away from Mola Ram's influence.
However, where it fails to do this is with the actual MacGuffin. There's nothing to suggest the missing stones are actually in the catacombs or that their combined power will even pose a threat to the outside world. For that matter, how the Thuggees intend to rise in power using them is never explained either. (And when you have an army that's only as loyal as their skin's temperature, you ideally want to have something on your side more substantial than glowing diamonds. )
By comparison, Spalko gives a remarkably clear outline of what the Soviets believe the crystal skull will do for them. (And there's no way to miss it, because they even put a big, bright light on her face while she does so.) It even manages to be clever, in that it's presented as a force which could tip the balance of Cold War power away from the bomb. In this respect, it's the most palpable MacGuffin threat since the audience was literally shown the power of the Ark unleashed.
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Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
I think it was important to establish that on some level Spalko genuinely has psychic powers
I'm just not convinced that it was needed. At the beginning of the film, Spalko is unable to invade Indy's mind. Once she acquires the skull, she is. This provides a pretty straightforward example of what the Soviets are expecting- on a larger scale- that the MacGuffin will do for them.
Ultimately, it just goes back to what was recently discussed in a separate thread: Each of the sequels has its share of strengths and weaknesses. The only thing that seems to truly help a film in overcoming them is time.
And I've never seen the UK version! In my own defense, I don't watch ToD that much, anyway. So, I take back comments agreeing to a possible slight-of-hand trick.
