To film or not to film

Will

New member
I realize this isnt the prevailing viewpoint, but I do not feel a fourth Indy film would be benifical to the series, or as good as it should be. The trilogy as a whole is complete, and each film has gone down as classic. A fourth film made more than a decade later would not share the same fate, and, espically if Harrison Ford does not return as Indiana Jones, might look like a remake trying to ride a horse that returned to the stable years ago. Thats not to say Indiana Jones isnt popular or relevant, there is not question he is both and will go down as one of the quitenssential American heroes. A fourth film jepordizes this, by taking Indiana out of his element that he pays homage to, the 1930's. For this reason alone, Indiana Jones cannot work as a series like James Bond does, for as much as some wish.

The Bond films were based on novels, and the successive way in which the films were released, yearly and then to every 18 months, provided for a constant re-enforcement of his world. This led to Bond bonds adaptability to actor and societial changes, which took a very long time after Connery left the role. Due to the length between the trilogy and a fourth film, there is no time to adapt Indy to todays form of movie making, heavy CGI, extreme stunts etc, and I dont think we would want him to be either.

As a whole, the triology is complete. The Last Crusade ended with Indy riding off into the sunset. The intention was three films, and both Speilberg and the crew, although sometimes reluctantly, fulfilled their obligation. There is no guarentee Speilberg would want to do it again, and to ask Harrison Ford, who is pushing 60 to do it again, would be utterly ridicioulus. They have moved on from the series, and are no longer at a point in time where they feel like they could do it. Even during the trilogy, Spielbergs comments alluded to his feeling older and less capable to direct a film when he looked at Chris Columbus's script.

On the subject of Harrison, he is now a grandfather. Indiana Jones really doesnt seem like the grandfather type. Even so, the stunts and adventure elements in a fourth Indy would have to be so tame for Harrison to do it, no piece of it could ever compare to the thrilling truck chase in Raiders, the battles in The Temple of Doom, and the tank chase in The Last Crusade. And with Vic Armstrong working on the new Bond film, you would have to find a stuntman also around Harrisons age who would be willing to do such a thing. I'm no expert on film making, but Im sure finding a 60 year old stuntman is like finding a virgin in a maternity ward. So that leaves you with two choices, you can either alienate your fan base by using a lot of CGI, remember the reaction Die Another Day and all of the recent Star Wars films have recieved because of that. Or, you can get a new Indiana Jones.

Some see this as a viable solution, they cite Bond as their precedent. But, once again, its different. The transition in the Bond series from Sean Connery, to Lazenby and to Roger Moore cost ten years and four films of finicial and creative doldrums from the series. At one point, there was a period where three Bond films used three different Bond actors. The series really wasnt a stable cash cow again until The Spy Who Loved Me, ten years after You Only Live Twice where Connery first said "never again." Looking back on the distance between the first three Indy films, the idea of a successful transition to another actor the first time out almost two decades after the end of the triology is a bad idea, plain and simple. The public wont go for it. Yes, we Indy fans who own the triology and watch the documentaries until we're blue in the face will go see it, but when your trying to sell it to a studio, its the general audience thats the target. They wont go for it. And as a fan I dont think I would either.

Indy will forever be Harrison Ford in my mind as in many others, and there isnt a way he could be in a fourth film and have it be anything resembling the classic formula from the triology. He would be taken out of his element, and the film would go down as the bastard child among the four. I have no doubt it would make people hold back their praise for calling the entire series of Indiana Jones "classic."
 
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Deadlock

New member
I hear you, Will. I?m also concerned that a fourth Indy film is something of a gamble. I?m especially concerned about anything that George Lucas is involved in. His amazing ability to trample his own classic and beloved work scares me. So when George?s shadow falls across the Indy saga, I shudder.

However, I will say that Indy is a character that still has depth that can be explored. I don?t necessarily need to see a 60-year-old Indy attempting the same stuff that made him an icon twenty years ago. I?m not only willing to see an older Indy, but I?m INTERESTED in an older Indy set in the 1950?s (which is when the rumors say the next movie will be set). Indy has always struggled in the grey area between good and evil, grave robber and archaeologist. There?s nothing about that fundamental element that needs to be diminished by Indy?s age.

I think that the most important aspect that fans like us need to see in any treatment of the Indy saga is RESPECT. Respect for the character, respect for the saga, and respect for us as fans. The acceptance and approval of fan-based efforts by other fans I think displays this point. Fans who put this stuff together (by and large) have the respect that?s needed for us to embrace their efforts. Case in point, I am VERY excited about the fan film Treasure of the Templars. Is Ken Gawne Harrison Ford? Nope. But his love and respect for the saga is obvious in the lengths that he's going to put this together. Therefore, I think that I could come to accept an honest big-budget attempt to reintroduce the Indy character. Perhaps if a younger actor wanted to take up the role of Indy in the 1920s?

Once again, my apprehension about the abilities of George Lucas to respect the characters and the fans I believe is well founded. Here are a bunch of things that would tick me off:

1. Putting a popular pretty-boy into the role just to get people in the seats (like what they did to Jack Ryan when Ben Affleck came in. :mad: )
2. Warping Indy into a different time period (the James Bond thing).
3. Replacing most of the stunts with CG (not that the couldn?t do that for things that they would have used Barbie dolls in mini mine carts for in the past :) )
 
So would you all indy fans would consider having a non HF indiana??? I know i wouldnt, i wouldnt even go to see it.

I hope all or at least most of you agree with me that HF=Indy and no other, as deadlock very wisely said before i also dont want the Indy series turned to be like the Bond ones :(
 

Will

New member
Luisiana Jones said:
So would you all indy fans would consider having a non HF indiana??? I know i wouldnt, i wouldnt even go to see it.

I hope all or at least most of you agree with me that HF=Indy and no other, as deadlock very wisely said before i also dont want the Indy series turned to be like the Bond ones :(

A good post Deadlock. I too agree Lucas penchant for making less than average works to follow up classic efforts to be a little alarming.

Luisiana Jones, I would see a fourth Indy film. I would buy it, read all I can about it, regardless of who bears the fedora and bull whip. I really see two possible senarios with a fourth Indy film:

One, having the film with Harrison Ford in the 50's, perhaps a race agains the Communists to discover the Garden of Eden (as suggested in an article on this site) has definite promise. I too think it would be intresting to see Harrison tackle the role again. and putting Indy into a different situation and time period (The Red Scare, the 1950's.) could be intresting. The Red Scare could be used effectively as long as its not to political, such was the benifit of the 1930's Nazi's, they were the villians who scared people because of what they could do.

As an individual movie, that would be exceptionally intresting and has the potential to be a classic worthy of the trilogy. However, none of that tackles the larger question of "Where do we go from here?" If the film is a launching pad for more Indy films, is it really appropriate to set Indy so out of his original element, and with Harrison Ford in the role just this one time only to see a brand new face a few years later when a new one could have been introduced now, and back in Indys element?

To compare it to Bond for a moment, the situation faced here is much like the one faced between Tim Dalton's Licence To Kill, and Pierce Brosnan's GoldenEye. Before Brosnan would re-ignite the series with GoldenEye in 1995, there hadnt been a Bond film in six years, and a whole generation of youth had grown up not seeing a Bond actor in the role. Dalton could have come back six years older, and then left because he would have looked unrealisitc in the part. But that doesnt do much for the series because their trying to start again, recognizing their past but looking forward.

If the intent of Indy 4 is to re launch the series, it might be better to get a new actor and put him back in the original element of the 1930's. If the intent is to give Ford a well deserved swansong, then make it creative, innovative and fresh, but aware that its time is passing and this is the end.

Personally, I much prefer the latter.
 
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TombReader

New member
Speaking as a 'Star Wars' fan who has definitely enjoyed the Prequels,I do not entirely share the concerns about Lucas' talent or his intentions.Whether or not he ever intended to mess with the Indy films is irrelevant,because(aside from remastering them for DVD-which I have yet to hear anyone complain about),he hasn't touched them.If that's only because of Spielberg's wishes,then it still proves that Lucas does respect his colleague's input.Some of his changes made to the SW films are certainly questionable,but how they pertain to Indy 4,I'm not quite sure.

However,I also agree with the views expressed here that Indy 4 would be a bad idea,for a number of reasons.Not the least of which is that re-visiting a series as popular as Indy was(and still is) so long after the fact is bound to get mixed reactions from fans.Some because of the reasons expressed here and others because there's probably no way that any film could live up to the hype and expectation that this film would have to deal with,regardless of how good it was.
 

Will

New member
TombReader said:
Some because of the reasons expressed here and others because there's probably no way that any film could live up to the hype and expectation that this film would have to deal with,regardless of how good it was.

Good point, and I'm sure you know that well as a Star Wars fan, as I believe that is why many feel the prequels have been outright failures (they are not). That too is a danger, and because its so obvious may be a good enough reason for paramount NOT to green light the project.
 

Deadlock

New member
Let's not derail this conversation with a discussion about what's wrong (or not wrong) with the Star Wars saga. If someone wants to create that thread, I'll post to it. But relating this to future Indy projects, I'm taking the point of view of looking at George's resume trying to determine whether or not to hire him for Indy 4.

"Well Mr. Lucas... it says here that you tinkered with an icon of American film to add in whatever CG stuff you thought was cool that week, and dorked around with story line to make it mesh 'better' with some prequels whose quality is widely debated... is that correct?" :)

If Indy 4 comes to fruition, I hope that Spielberg and Ford can hold it together. I think it can work, as Will said, as a final chapter for an aging icon. But to echo a Raven icon (Attila the Professor) I don't think that it precludes Indy being resurrected by a non-Ford actor. I just has to be done CAREFULLY.
 

TombReader

New member
Deadlock said:
"Well Mr. Lucas... it says here that you tinkered with an icon of American film to add in whatever CG stuff you thought was cool that week, and dorked around with story line to make it mesh 'better' with some prequels whose quality is widely debated... is that correct?" :)

If you don't want to discuss the merits of the current SW trilogy,then why do you keep steering the conversation back towards that very topic??

At any rate,we can all be grateful that Saint Steven has never,EVER messed with any of his previous works.I mean,when he re-released ET a few years back,thank God he didn't do anything crazy like,I don't know...change people's guns to walkie-talkies! (rolls eyes)

Maybe Lucas isn't the only one whose resume should be re-examined.(?)
 

Deadlock

New member
TombReader said:
If you don't want to discuss the merits of the current SW trilogy,then why do you keep steering the conversation back towards that very topic??

For the sake of comedy, old boy. :)

TombReader said:
At any rate,we can all be grateful that Saint Steven has never,EVER messed with any of his previous works.I mean,when he re-released ET a few years back,thank God he didn't do anything crazy like,I don't know...change people's guns to walkie-talkies! (rolls eyes)

Maybe Lucas isn't the only one whose resume should be re-examined.(?)

As far as I'm aware, St. Steven was stoned to death by St. Paul (then known as Saul) and was never involved in the re-release of E.T. :D

Okay, all kidding aside, I just don't anything done with future Indy movie(s) to suck. Involve whoever you want, just as long as it doesn't suck...
 

TombReader

New member
'As far as I'm aware, St. Steven was stoned to death by St. Paul (then known as Saul) and was never involved in the re-release of E.T.'

Like you said,all for the sake of comedy.I am somewhat surprised that you put that much effort into researching a throwaway line,but so little into your biased criticisms of George Lucas.That's surprising because your posts are usually very well thought out.


'I'm sure you know that well as a Star Wars fan, as I believe that is why many feel the prequels have been outright failures (they are not).'

I agree completely with regards to SW.I think that a lot of that criticism is rooted in the idea that some of these people were hoping to re-live something from their childhood and that's just never going to happen,regardless of any movie.No film can ever give that back to you.Although I think the average age of the SW fan from way back when may have been quite younger than the average Indy fan,so hopefully that would not be as much of an issue with the IJ fans.It doesn't seem to be.Like deadlock said,they just want it to be good.
 
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Deadlock

New member
TombReader said:
I am somewhat surprised that you put that much effort into researching a throwaway line,but so little into your biased criticisms of George Lucas.That's surprising because your posts are usually very well thought out.

"Research?" Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Your opinion and my opinion of George Lucas are just that. Opinions. I can't do any "research" to PROVE anything about George Lucas one way or the other. People line up on both sides of this issue. Obviously, we're on opposite sides of this issue. I can respect your opinion without agreeing with it, so long as you don't pretend your opinion is a FACT.
 
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Joe Brody

Well-known member
Another Long Post

Here's a somewhat shortened post of mine from 10/03 on another board as to why there needs to be another film. Forgive me VP -- I just lose control sometimes.

IMO, Indy IV should be made because: (i) the existing sequels are lacking and come up well short of the masterpiece that is RotLA and (ii) now is likely the last chance to make a fitting bookend companion to RotLA with Harrison Ford as IJ.

[two cents on the existing sequels deleted]

Compared together against RotLA, it?s clear that both sequels are flawed on several levels. First, the IJ character in the sequels lack the ambiguity that gave such depth to IJ in RotLA. Part of what makes the RotLA so great is the transformation that IJ undergoes during the course of the movie from an opportunist with dubious motivations to stalwart hero. Like a great Bogart character, IJ is not a straightforward ?white-hat? good-guy. In RotLA, we watch IJ go from acting only in his own self-interest to simply wanting to get the girl. What makes the transformation so compelling is the priceless little character details from the first half of the movie that show us that IJ is more than a little bit bad ? ranging from the inference that IJ intended to skip out on Barrannica and Company in the opening sequence, IJ ?selling? artifacts to Brody (and the ambiguous statement about the Ark representing everything Marcus and IJ got into archaeology for in the first place), and IJ?s hard treatment of Marion in her bar ? up to the point where IJ ?abandons? Marion in Belloq?s tent. The sequels come nowhere close to offering the depth of RotLA?s content in this regard.

If there is to be a sequel, the IJ character has to evolve ? or undergo some sort of change. Since he can?t get any nobler than where we left him at the end of LC, the only place to go storywise is to re-introduce some of the ambiguity and edgier qualities. We see in the sequels that without these elements, we are left with a blander (arguably even boring?) IJ. In the sequels (mainly LC) screen time that could have been used to add texture to IJ?s character is instead used for supporting characters (Dr. Henry Jones and Brody-as-walking-comic-relief). In the sequels repeated helpings of comic relief (for example, the grind-the-plot-to-a-halt camping scene in TOD) are served up with these supporting characters ? unlike in RotLA where the comic relief (like Sallah being discovered outside the map room) is woven into the story. The supporting characters in the sequels muddy the waters and slow the action. Put succinctly, real Indy style adventure doesn?t work with a supporting cast. At his core, IJ is a loner. So from a character development point of view what?s left for an old Boy Scout/noble crusader? A Don Quixote story? IMO, the story that is left to tell and must be told is a fall-from-grace story line that has IJ suffer or cause some mishap for which he has to make amends or where he is in a situation where it appears there is no morally safe path. The IJ character deserves a chance to go full circle ? and I note that a certain eye-patch ? and all it infers -- fits in nicely here.

The obvious counter to having IJ be more of a Raider and less of a Crusader is that it could hurt Indy IV?s prospects at the box-office. I?d argue that a sequel with a story and themes targeted to a more adult audience can still do gangbusters at the box-office because audiences have become more sophisticated in the years since LC. One just has to look at the success this past summer of the Matrix Reloaded with it?s ?R? rating and the growing and continued enthusiasm for an increasingly complex Harry Potter character that is growing up angry. In essence, all that I?m saying is that you don?t have to dumb-down a movie in order for it to succeed. George Lucas?s last two efforts are notable cautionary tales in this regard.

Second, the greatest failure of the sequels is that they lack the magic and singular atmosphere achieved in RotLA. Without dwelling on this point too much, what moment/scenes in the sequels even come close to the atmosphere scenes in RotLA like: (i) the bad dates scene, (ii) the excitement of IJ in the map room, and (iii) the stormy all-night stealth excavation of the tomb over the Ark? It seemed like the very air in RotLA was charged with mystery. As a teenage kid watching the first matinee performance of RotLA on opening day, I had no idea what was going to happen when the Ark was opened -- and I was blown away when it was. In LC, what is served up for a finale? A dusty old guy sitting on a bad set? That?s no way to end the series. To me, the ending of LC was just visual confirmation that the creators/writers were fatigued.

Third, building off my last observation, on a basic visual level,
neither sequel achieved the gritty realism of RotLA and many of the sets in the sequels have a plastic feel (whether the feast in TOD or the Library in LC). This is unseemly given the larger production budgets for the sequels. Since LC, I think that top-shelf filmmakers keep raising the bar in terms of achieving a realistic looking product ? as evidenced by today?s mini backlash against computer generated effects. I think that one of the important objectives of Indy IV should be to re-capture a visually unique and realistic visual style ? and re-establish it?s rightful place as the most realistic action-adventure franchise.

Now, I like a summer popcorn movie as much as the next guy, but from the beginning the IJ series (by necessity and design) was about doing more with less. The sequels were less with more. For Indy IV, I don?t want just another typical summer popcorn movie like ?The Mummy?. What I want is another adventure thick with atmosphere, quality detail and a great story.

[...]

I want Harrison Ford back as IJ to go out and get it done (at least) one more time. From a story telling perspective, this is a great challenge and opportunity. With movies ranging from ?Rio Bravo? to ?Unforgiven? there is more than ample precedent that proves that movies with older heroes can succeed. However, what makes Indy IV so special ? and Harrison Ford so essential ? is the opportunity to take the same character played by the same actor and show what time has wrought. I fear an Indy IV script littered with ?it?s not the mileage, it?s the years? quips. Ford?s age should not be used as an excuse for cheap laughs ? but as an opportunity (as in ?Rio Bravo?) to show us something about inner resolve, basic competence and honor. I need to hear Harrison Ford utter a line that resonates the same way as the ?Truck? What Truck?? line in RotLA ? and then have him go out and kick some ass. It was at that moment when I first heard that line at that pivotal point in Raiders so many years ago, that IJ owned me. Now, after two sequels and too many years, I want another moment like that.
 

Aaron H

Moderator Emeritus
Very, very well thought out and presented arguement, Joe. Yet again you amaze me.
George you reading this?
 

Deadlock

New member
Wow. Great post.

Joe Brody said:
IMO, the story that is left to tell and must be told is a fall-from-grace story line that has IJ suffer or cause some mishap for which he has to make amends or where he is in a situation where it appears there is no morally safe path. The IJ character deserves a chance to go full circle...

This is a fantastic idea. Sombody needs to take this and run with it. Movie, book, something, anything.
 
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