TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > The Films > Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-06-2005, 01:23 PM   #1
Deadlock
IndyFan
 
Deadlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Post-apocalyptic Iowa
Posts: 1,073
Indy 4 and the true origin of Pale Horse

In considering the Byzantine machinations that we've all come to expect from Pale Horse, it occurred to me to turn the microscope on the enigmatic author himself.

Now, his namesake seems to have an ominous and apocalyptic origin.



However, as Joe Brody so aptly pointed out, in his "Treatise on Four", Pale Horse left out one of the most obvious references to a foursome that have a heavy eschatological significance. Very odd, considering the common belief that Indy IV will be the end of the Jones saga. Also, something of an oversight if the commonly understood origin behind the Pale Horse that we all assume to be true.

In considering references to death as a horseman, I see them wound throughout western civilization. As that phrase came to mind, a light bulb turned on in my head: Pale Horse’s change in avatar: a change to a Sheriff... so not only “western civilization” but truly a western. When you try to come up with connection between the classical meaning of our enigmatic author and a western, the answer is clear: Pale Rider.

If you consider Pale Rider for its significance you’ll find it to be the last traditional western made by an American icon, Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven doesn’t count, as it was an anti-Western). Itself a rendition of another Western classic, Shane, Pale Rider returns us to classic character in a classic tale, only darker. But is this what Pale Horse is suggesting for Indy IV? No. (Though it has been suggested by others.)

So, if we were mistaken about the pedigree of the Pale Horse, and this horse is not apocryphal at all... where shall we find the origin of this horse? I believe I found the answer: under Don Quixote.



Perhaps this horse’s proximity to death doesn’t come from the rider’s identity as we supposed. No, this "pale horse", Rocinante, found his paleness from the trials of life. It was only then that, Rocinante could become the vehicle for a quest to rediscover an ideal. In Don Quixote’s case it was knight-errantry (represented by a sword), so why not Eden (represented by a flaming sword)? So as we all tilt with windmills (which traditionally also have FOUR arms, to make use of the FOUR winds) set up for us by convoluted comrade, let us consider this alternate and ultimately more logical origin of the Raven’s Pale Horse.

While the “The Edge of Creation” remains, perhaps appropriately, ethereal and unreachable, there are other Indy IV concepts that are a lot firmer. Some, in fact, are as certain as death.

So with my tongue pressed firmly into my cheek, let me just say... "Ride on, my good friend, Rocinante. Ride on."

Last edited by Deadlock : 07-06-2005 at 01:25 PM.
Deadlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2005, 01:55 PM   #2
Joe Brody
IndyFan
 
Joe Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sweetest Place on Earth
Posts: 2,571
Offtopic???

I'd bet a dollar that there will a Don Quixote reference or allusion in Indy IV.

And aren't we all out chasing windmills?
Joe Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2006, 07:00 PM   #3
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,733
How would that relate to the Henry artifact storyline you have recently proposed?
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2006, 06:23 PM   #4
Joe Brody
IndyFan
 
Joe Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sweetest Place on Earth
Posts: 2,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
How would that relate to the Henry artifact storyline you have recently proposed?

I almost missed this. . .

The moral underpinnings given the Indiana Jones character in LC ("That [relic] is an important artifact. It belongs in a museum.") makes it easy to cast Indiana Jones as a Don Quijote figure. This 'noble' motivation fundamentally alters what had previously been assumed to be Indy's selfish/mercenary interest and makes Indy's episodic exploits mirror those of a knight errant, which was the very figure assumed by Don Quijote. Coincidentally, the tales of both Don Quijote and Indiana Jones play out in a changing world: Don Quijote's at the end of the dark/middle ages and Indiana Jones' at the beginning of the modern world. As Don Quijote ages his simple morality plays out against far more complex issues of the period. Indy's exploits could be used to similar effect. If we are to believe that Indy's energies were devoted to getting relics safely to a museum, IJIV could be used to show that Indy's life work was an empty effort (unless of course Indy has spent his whole life being manipulated by the Masons, but that's another tale).

Imagine a scene with Indy and 'Bad Sallah' where Indy (now a curator) castigates Sallah for selling relics to private individuals. Sallah leans forward and taps the table hard. "My friend, what percentage of your Musuem's collection is even on display? Seven, Eight percent?"

Indy nods his head. "Five."

"And how many people even visit your musuem in a given year?" Sallah shakes his head gravely. "You and I both know that those decaying objects collecting dust in your museum would have been better off left in the ground."

In other words, I would tie Don Quijote's morals and imagery into my repatriation story. Up until recently, Western Archeaolgy has rested on this tremendous conceit that artifacts are better off in dusty collections in the United States and Europe. Most if not all major Western Institutions flouted the law in taking relics. Indiana Jones is the poster-boy in this regard. As people today come to realize the Mayan pottery belongs back in its home country instead of some irrelevant little museum (or worse in a storage room in some nameless office of an archeaology professor), it would be fitting to see Indy make the switch and lead the effort to repatriate objects wrongly taken from their country of origin.

My working title is 'Indiana Jones and the Raiders' Real Reward'. In one respect this title is supposed to evoke 'death', like 'The Big Sleep'. It also hints at betrayal -- which is best embodied by the old line that 'there is no honor among theives'. For tomb raiders, friendships over time are lost or the subject of betrayal ('Adios Sapito'). For my Indy IV concept, this means a Sallah who is no simple Sancho Paza (sp?) like stooge but an enterprising and independant figure making money in a world where the West waged war and savaged his home. There would be no father and no Marcus Brody to support Indy. Indy would be alone and left to his depleted resources. The ultimate victory for Indy would be cleaning up the mess of his life work (to some degree) and hopefully salvaging a valued friendship -- which in the end is all that really matters, not the object.
Joe Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2006, 06:23 PM   #5
Joe Brody
IndyFan
 
Joe Brody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sweetest Place on Earth
Posts: 2,571
Double post.

But any chance of getting this thread moved to Indy 4?
Joe Brody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2006, 07:36 PM   #6
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,733
As you wish. Wouldn't want it lost in the foie gras.
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2006, 05:17 PM   #7
Moedred
Administrator
 
Moedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: California
Posts: 4,681
The Albrecht Durer engraving reminded me of my visit to Nuremberg, with its delightful Fountain of Love, based on his work. No horse among these sculptures. But there's a cute bunny nearby!
Moedred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 11:02 PM   #8
Attila the Professor
Moderator
 
Attila the Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 6,402
So, if we get that fifth film...they're reaching just about the last few years where Indy is in time frame that exists in the cultural imagination as a pivot point between eras.

And our fourth film was a repatriation story, but didn't make much of that. After all, Indy had to be under the influence, as it were, for that to happen.

Think there's still opportunity for there to be some there here?

What's lovely about Joe's version of an older Indy is that, as opposed to the darker visions of Indy some of us used to espouse, the problem with this one is that he imagines himself as too pure. He's not a drunk passing time in a warehouse; he's purer-than-thou. It's an interesting thought, and one that could certainly work with our new family man Jones.

Last edited by Attila the Professor : 10-27-2010 at 04:46 AM.
Attila the Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 02:06 AM   #9
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,745
Why does this idea of a "kindler, gentler" Indy have to persist?
I'd really like a return to the darker, grittier Jones of Raiders and Temple.
No more family friendly stuff. Let's see Indy unleash his ruthless side one last time.
What if for example, a part of the plot involved Marion getting killed--Perhaps in the pursuit of one of his "little bits of junk" and Mutt getting kidnapped or erroneously being presumed dead or something. Tie in some artifact and really dark bad guys to go along with this.

Or...The government calls upon Indy one last time (ala Raiders) to retrieve an artifact of supreme importance from the bad guys. Having Indy being called on a mission would negate Mutt and Marion being there, freeing up Indy.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 02:58 PM   #10
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Why does this idea of a "kindler, gentler" Indy have to persist?
I'd really like a return to the darker, grittier Jones of Raiders and Temple.
No more family friendly stuff. Let's see Indy unleash his ruthless side one last time.

Too right. Bring back the womanizing, devil-may-care unmarried rogue!

Eastwood's Pale Rider was hardly the model of sensitive pacifism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
What if for example, a part of the plot involved Marion getting killed--Perhaps in the pursuit of one of his "little bits of junk" and Mutt getting kidnapped or erroneously being presumed dead or something. Tie in some artifact and really dark bad guys to go along with this.

Sounds cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The government calls upon Indy one last time (ala Raiders) to retrieve an artifact of supreme importance from the bad guys. Having Indy being called on a mission would negate Mutt and Marion being there, freeing up Indy.

Doesn't have the finality of option 1, but it'll get the job done.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2010, 03:19 PM   #11
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
 
Rocket Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
The government calls upon Indy one last time...

How about Indy just goes after something he wants for a change...
Rocket Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 AM.