Could Henry Sr's Remains be the Artifact?

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Flat-out, I don't like any of the artifacts on record that have been discussed for Indy IV.

Could fans accept a story where Henry Senior somehow dies and his ghost is torturing Indy? And it is Henry Sr.'s remains that serve as the object?

Say some villain kills Henry Senior (or is somehow responsible for his death) and the remains are shipped home. Indy, always the good son, buries his father -- but then the at-times good-spirited ghost torments Indy -- alluding that he has to buried elsewhere to find peace. He speaks in riddles and serves at times as comic relief. Indy's quest is then to return the remains and exact revenge on his father's killer. Some past wrong-doing on Indy's part would weigh on Indy and complicate the story.

I think I'm going to incorporate this Henry-Senior-as-artifact idea into my Indy 4 concept and take it from there. Sallah won't be responsible but early on he will be allied with the ultimate bad-guy.
 

roundshort

Active member
Good to have stress off your back, huh Joe? Sounds like good stuff. But a bit Hamletish for my likes. I can see how it would make a good movie though
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
roundshort said:
Good to have stress off your back, huh Joe? Sounds like good stuff. But a bit Hamletish for my likes. I can see how it would make a good movie though

Hamlet has been on my mind and would factor into the story.

Time to change the avatar. I don't see how anyone can take me seriously with this:

<img src="http://raven.theraider.net/images/avatars/100/monkeyman_2.gif" width="64" height="63">
 

roundshort

Active member
Joe Brody said:
Hamlet has been on my mind and would factor into the story.

Time to change the avatar. I don't see how anyone can take me seriously with this:

<img src="http://raven.theraider.net/images/avatars/100/monkeyman_2.gif" width="64" height="63">


I might stick with Bloody Indy for awhile, yes It is much easier to take Monkey man serious!
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Joe Brody said:
Could fans accept a story where Henry Senior somehow dies and his ghost is torturing Indy? And it is Henry Sr.'s remains that serve as the object?

That sounds a bit Shakespearian doesn't it.
 

roundshort

Active member
Joe Brody said:
Hamlet has been on my mind and would factor into the story.

Time to change the avatar. I don't see how anyone can take me seriously with this:

<img src="http://raven.theraider.net/images/avatars/100/monkeyman_2.gif" width="64" height="63">

Why has hamlet been on your mind, all this Mel Gibson talk!
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
temple of john said:
Come on Joe.

Seriously, using a person -- in this case a ghost/remains -- as the Mcguffin is hardly new, just look at Minority Report and Fifth Element. Using a ghostly Henry Senior could also serve a visual link with the end of LC if Henry Senior's spirit had the same glow. Themes of loss and redemption would work in such a story.
 

IndyBuff

Well-known member
It's certainly a unique and interesting idea Joe, although using a ghost or some other apparition is a bit much for my tastes. Henry Sr. is a great character and I hope he's able to make an appearance in the film but using him as the main storyline would be a little too similar to Last Crusade. I would like to see him play a different role this time around or just make a short cameo.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Joe Brody said:
Seriously, using a person -- in this case a ghost/remains -- as the Mcguffin is hardly new, just look at Minority Report and Fifth Element. Using a ghostly Henry Senior could also serve a visual link with the end of LC if Henry Senior's spirit had the same glow. Themes of loss and redemption would work in such a story.

It certainly would bring immortality into play. Could tie into an Eden plot. I will have to entertain this more seriously. Heck we are still seriously looking for the remains of Jimmy Hoffa. Why not use that to spawn a story?
 

HovitosKing

Well-known member
Pale Horse said:
Heck we are still seriously looking for the remains of Jimmy Hoffa. Why not use that to spawn a story?

Because Indiana Jones is an archaeologist. Archaeology: the scientific study of material remains (as fossil relics, artifacts, and monuments) of past human life and activities [Merriam-Webster dictionary]. He is not a sociologist, not a ghostbuster, and not a mortician. Bad idea. Bad.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I would agree with the clinical definition of archeologist, and to be true, forensic archeology probably wasn't as prevelant in the 30's to 50's, but the quest for human remains can be argued as a driving force in archeology. Take King Tut, and his mother, and perhaps the entire Valley of the Kings. Or maybe the Kennewick Man and "Lucy" from Ethiopa.

Surely we could construct a movie based on the premise of a grave excavation that wouldn't deviate too far from the realms of archeology. Maybe it's just Henry's body that you don't find convincing.
 

Violet

Moderator Emeritus
Hmmm... I don't really like it. It just seems really strange to me. Besides, I'd like to see Connery alive in IV. How about Elsa haunting Indy, because she was good in bed???:p :eek:
 

Gustav

New member
Sorry, Joe. That idea just seems really bad, at least for an Indiana Jones film. At first I thought you were joking.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
O.K. so I've got a work-in-progress. Let me try something a little
different:

One of the things that I hate (and I mean hate) are scenes (in film or television) where living characters interact and get wisdom/guidance from the dearly departed ( like HBO's Six Feet Under). This is wrong. In reality, upon suffering a loss, the "best" that can happen to a survivor is to dream that the deceased is still alive -- but then wake to cold reality.

Hamlet is haunted by his father because vengence is needed. So to not offend my own rules for the dead, I propose a scenario where Indy -- already involved in his own storyline -- starts having dreams about his father. Notably, there is already a well-established place in the films for when Indiana Jones sleeps: Indy sleeps when he travels. In the dreams, Indy learns that his father has passed, is not at peace, and, as in Hamlet, that the death must be avenged. Indiana thus must deal with not just his own dilemma (in my story, the Bad-Sallah situation) but also investigating his father's demise.

Now here is where Hovitosking's and Palehorse's good and valuable input comes in. Indy has to both find where the father's remains are and then he has to figure out where Henry Senior has to be put-to-rest in order for the father to find peace. So unlike past films where Indy uses his skill to plunder, he must deconstruct what happened at some location(s) (the archeaolgist's search for remains) and figure out what to do with dad (a timely issue for a lot of Boomers whose parents are dying). One of the other themes I've talked about in the past is the repatriation of artifacts as both (i) the only real remaining issue in archeaology, and (ii) being the concept necessary to bring the Indy character full circle. Ideally, the burying of Henry would be tied with the repatriation of some not-necessarily mystical object (the resolution of the Bad-Sallah storyline). (And, as an aside, what if the villain, as in Hamlet, is someone who had ursurped Henry Senior's place at some time in the past? There is one notable figure in this respect. Any guesses?).

What I like is that the Henry-Senior-as-ghost character is activley integrated into the story in a way that links back to LC and in a role that is more than just setting the stage at the beginning of the adventure (a la Marcus Brody in RotLA). In other words, Henry Senior just won't be an old man giving some dry nuggets of wisdom. Importantly, "killing" Henry Senior also re-establishes Indy as a sole figure, a strong hero finishing unfinished business (insert reference to the appropriate Western film here). This is important because LC's greatest flaw is how much the Indy character falls into the father's shadow. But, I agree that the biggest strike against this approach is that this story is, in a certain extent, another search for Henry and therefore a lot like LC. I think the
differentiating factor is to have IJ caught up in some other intrigue and have the Henry storyline in the early part of the story being subservient. Eden is a heavy concept and is likely more than I want to pursue. But I'm open to suggestions. . . . . . .

At least I've gotten away from Indy having to tote his father's corpse
around. I can just imagine an airport scene: "And you'll be checking
how many bags sir?"

I've been kicking around an appropriate Indy IV since I first joined
the Raven. I realize now that my problem was rejecting LC instead of
embracing it. I now have a story that will -- to dramatic effect -- use elements from both Raiders and LC, ranging from Sallah's large family and home in Cairo, to the nagging issue of the consequences of Henry Senior having drunk from the cup-of-Christ. But most importantly, I've got the
larger story. For me (melodramatically), this is the equivalent of Indy putting his spade into the ground on top the Well of Souls. Which is not to say I'll write it. For years, I just wanted to come up with a story that worked for me -- and this is pretty much it.

Working Title?
Indiana Jones and The Raiders' Real Reward
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
I truly admire a fan's well-reasoned Indy 4 concept. I have my own of course. It's like piecing together the grand unification theory, and it's embolding to think some of the best writers in the business are unable to assemble it, yet (to George's liking). Too many of us are only capable of passing judgement.

I can offer critiques, though. I think the effects of the grail are too convoluted to revisit. I do believe the Joneses were cured of any terminal illnesses, which could be a motivating factor for either of them to sieze the day in Indy 4. (And what if the grail knight healed a pregnant Elsa whose child wandered out of the temple in the 21st century... see what I mean, convoluted.) Also, they've already searched for a dead guy: Sir Richard in the Venice catacombs. Maybe if Henry had microfilm in his teeth or really transcendent opium he was smuggling in his rectum, there would be a reason to find his remains. Horrible ideas, sorry. Or what if the black stone meteorite Muslims worship is really the head of a Jedi blown to Earth in interstellar battle, swarming with midichlorians which multiply in Henry's bloodstream when he prycks his finger, enabling him to become an apparition after death and instruct Indy to seek a small green Mongolian guy and learn how to corner the opium market. Working title: Indiana Jones and the Blue Screen Cameo Spectacular.

What the hell, I can't type pryck? Well, you know what they say: you can pryck your finger, but you can't finger your pryck. And don't sweat the petty things. And don't pet the sweaty things. I oughta lay off the hookah.
 

HovitosKing

Well-known member
Pale Horse said:
Surely we could construct a movie based on the premise of a grave excavation that wouldn't deviate too far from the realms of archeology. Maybe it's just Henry's body that you don't find convincing.

Yeah, I was really more concerned with the idea of Henry's body being the source of action. Ancient bones would be ok, Henry's would not be imo. But it's an interesting thread, either way.
 

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not wild about a "Weekend at Henry's" concept, because I think a living and spry Connery is one of Indy 4's better selling points, if only as a cameo. This is about the only franchise that will bring Connery out of retirement, and his screen time should show he's still got it.

Instead - as Pale Horse suggested - suppose Indy was the artifact. Not to appear only at the end (as Connery was originally scripted to in Crusade), but to explain where Indy's been all these years: buried in his huge office, probably analyzing Dead Sea Scrolls smuggled out of the Vatican by someone on the inside. 5 years of WWII and 8 years of scrolls would explain why he's still single. Unlike Henry, whose lifelong quest for the grail is complete. I would expect Henry to enjoy life, chase skirts, start a new family. I scoffed at the scene in Saucer Men (set in 1949) where he goes to bed with a glass of warm milk. He should have had a bridesmaid on each arm.
 
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