The Amazing return of Abner Ravenwood

'allo

This idea has been settling for sometime in my extremely philosophical/metaphysical mind, it is a plot twist that is pretty stupid but for me it would just make Indy IV 'work' for me.
I of the return of Indy's mentor Abner Ravenwood, a man mentioned in Raiders (and possibly shown in LC).
I imagine Abner as being the man that Indy based himself on as looking at YIJ we have to explain in the space of 13 years Indy changing so much; it must have been Abners influence. From the little we know about Abner from Raiders we see that Marcus is perhaps a little ambiviliant to him (calling him Ravenwood) and Marion sets out at laest that he was an interesting character.
Maybe Abner was Indy's bad father figure

Of course Abner is supposed to be dead, dying long before the events of Raiders somewhere in Nepal. But we never saw the body, and there are so many very pulpish reasons how he was presumed dead.
Consider that he had Amnesia, or was captured by the Soviets who wanted the power of the Ark, or even kidnapped by the Americans; there were a lot of reasons why this man would be wanted by many, a man who knew about the Lost Ark and probably countless other artifacts. Yes this is all very unlikely, but the Indy films are not set in the real world they are set in the world of pulp adventures and an incredible twist like this would be in the spirit of them and for me would give the story a bit of life.

Abner's return would i believe give Indy IV the gimmick that could make it into a great Indy movie. Abner is not only Marion's father but he is Indy's mentor with an antagonisitc relationship with Indy. It would finally explain Indys character and why he is the way he is, more so than Henry and imagine in Abner Indy seeing into his own future while looking back into the past to understand his own life.

or perhaps Abner could even be Indy's enemy in this working for the Soviets, it would really make any conflict between he and Indy genuinely personal - a man who is Indy's equal far more than even Belloq, a man who knew Indy inside out.

Abner could be the catalyst to any adventure, there are so many other artifacts that he could know of credibibly.

For me the return of Abner would give the right themeatic feel for this final adventure of Indiana Jones.

Abner Ravenwood. Hmmmmmm.

Certainly a very important character in the IJ universe.

Without ever even appearing on screen he played a major role in Raiders. And as you say, he could very well have been far more important, even central, to the development of the character of Indiana Jones.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Abner didn't necessarily die right? Forgive me but I haven't actually watched Raiders for quite some time. But didn't he just 'disappear'? That would make it a perfect fit for Indy IV.

Here's another scenario: When he disappeared in the 30's he actually went over to the dark side.....the Nazis. He worked for Hitler during the war. Then, not unlike many German scientists after the war, he was taken by the Soviets and forced to work for them. Isn't it possible then that in 1952 or 53 (or whenever they want to put Indy IV) that he somehow contacts his daughter Marion, and then she contacts Indy to try and ........

I would be about 90% in favor of your idea Bob. The only drawback that I could see is that if a re-emergence of Abner was to play out in Indy IV it would forever change the way you look at Raiders.

yes, an important charactor....but only indy geeks know/care about him

and for the last time, that is not Abner in LC!

I don't think it's really needed, marion I'ld like see, but not Abner...unless it was a flash back, other then that, it seems kinda corny

if we want to see abner, they should put it in an indy comic, as they planned on doing, for all us indy geeks to see, if we wished

(sidenote: LOL, nice sig bob)

00Kevin said:

yes, an important charactor....but only indy geeks know/care about him

(sidenote: LOL, nice sig bob)

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(Thanks 00)

I think it is more the concept of Abner as Indy's mentor that matters more than how much he has appeared

Well Monkey marion did say that 'Abner's dead' but she doesnt give any details and much like the rule in thrillers no one is dead unless you see a body.

Apparently in the Raiders novelisation it says he died in an avalance but that is so obscure that it is irrelevant really, and it is hardly a definative cause of death.

And as for him working for the Nazis the question for me is can he be redeemed from this situation? esps post WWII and by SS in post Schindlers List mode.

It's all about IJ's Age

On a practical level, if you introduced the Abner character in the early 1950's, he would have to be what, a '70+ year old man? . . . .or, at least in his mid-sixties

Anything other than a 'Where's Abner' or 'Hunt for Abner' storyline would come too close to what we last saw in LC -- IJ teamed up with an older guy. For this reason alone, I don't see it happening. [As for a bad guy Abner, that storyline would only work if the audience is shown the two working together for most of the movie and then Abner pulling the switch -- and again, I don't see that happening.]

I love the concept of introducing Abner but I think the last thing the powers want to do is hitch IJ up with another old dude years (in real time) after LC. At best, I could see a dead Abner (like his body found years later on some mountainside) found with some weird trinket or map that sends IJ on some sort of adventure. Along the way, there are unexpected twists and betrayals and IJ is left to wonder if Abner is [toying] with him from the grave . . .or is he really dead??? That sort of story -- but no flesh and blood Abner would put in appearance. Even an old guy at the end would be too much like LC.

[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-01-2004 at 08:43 pm]

I agree completely with the idea that there should NOT be a flesh and blood AR in the next Indy film.

But I do believe that he could be used very well as a plot device, just as he was in Raiders.

If he were to contact Marion somehow from Soviet Russia, it doesn't necessarily mean that it would be asking them to come get him; it wouldn't necessarily mean a 'quest for AR' plot. But then even if they did set out to find AR, they don't have to find him. It could just be a device to get a story going.

But this might work better in print than in film anyway.

I see what you mean Joe Brody and by all means continue disagreeing with me but i must disagree:

I don't think that Abner should be the new Henry Jones however much he is in the movie as Abner probably is probably a little more streetsmart than Henry and a very different character, yes he is old but from the perspective of selling Indy IV people probably would like something like the inclusion of Indy's father to be in it as it was so crowd pleasing last time

Maybe the quest could be triggered by a letter written to Indy by Abner long held back by Marion and as we go through the adventure Indy recalls his mentor until shock horror; he is the villain of the piece...

Oh how do you solve a problem like Maria -- uh, I mean Marion

Age issues aside, I'd argue that Marion (and her tumultuous on again/off again history with Indy) is the second strike against doing an Abner Ravenwood storyline. To some extent, the screenplay would have to cover both the Indy/Marion history and Indy's past with Abner -- and in my opinion that's just too much exposition for a movie that is going to have to start off fast.

To be blunt, Diane Keaton may still be able to sell tickets at her age but Karen Allen -- no way. I just don't see the Marion Ravenwood character (especially in a flesh and blood appearance) figuring into Indy IV at all.

That's not to say that the whole Marion issue can't be sidestepped -- or otherwise solved. Heh, she could have died too in the interim -- right? But anything that callous and obvious could offend or put off a large segment of the audience -- so the writer will have to come up with something to leave Marion (a character firmly established as willing, even demanding, to face death arm-in-arm with Indy) either out of the picture all together or safely at home so Indy can go globe-hoping with a younger and more box office friendly (read, attractive) companion.

I agree that there is no better hook from the past three films than Abner to ground a story, and I'm sure that a creative guy like Durabount could cook up a great story, but sitting here today and playing the probabilities, I just don't see it.

If there is to be an Abner related storyline, I think the general consensus on this thread about there being no flesh-and-blood Abner character is right on the money. The story can have it's genesis in Indy's history with Ravenwood, but he won't appear as a flesh-and-blood character.

Here's another take: the Indy/Abner falling out came about due to one or the other engaging in some unethical conduct that has racked Indy with guilt for decades. By 1951-2, Indy is finally compelled (due to some interesting catalyst) to set things right before he's too old. I wouldn't want to see anything as cheesy as Indy having nightmares, but I could see him haunted by Abner's ghost (think the creepy breeze in the bad dates scene in RotLA coupled with Dickens 'A Christmas Carol') till Indy makes things right.

Re: Boy...we are reaching now!!!

temple of john said:

Guys, I know there has'nt been much news in the way of Indy 4 but, lets keep our pants on. ABNER IS DEAD!!! I don't think that Lucas intended for Abner to be used as a future character, but rather a device for Indy to link up with Marion.They spent a total of MAYBE 1 minute on him in Raiders.

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Its just an idea john, for me the Indy IV forum is a battle against repeating ourselves endlessly, i started this in that hope.

I dont think Abner is just a plot device after all he was intended to appear in YIJ and he was apparently thought of in LC; Abner is for me the character that is the key for unlocking the mystery of Indiana Jones.

As for Marion i dont think that she necessarily has to be the leading lady of Indy IV for an Abner story to go ahead, Marion could give Indy the clue or just stay in America for the whole film. Indy would most likely encounter Abner away from USA.

00Kevin said:

yes, an important charactor....but only indy geeks know/care about him

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Well, yes, but the point is that that would change if he showed up in Indy 4. And to me, giving us a new angle on Raiders would be good. I'd like to see him...having him as a bad guy would be awesome - and it would make Indy reconsider his own nature (i.e. try find a difference between him and him role model).

Abner

bob said:

Abner is for me the character that is the key for unlocking the mystery of Indiana Jones.

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By "mystery of Indiana Jones" do you mean the question of whether IJ is the what's-in-it-for-me tomb raider first introduced in RotLA or the goody-goody boy scout that was foisted on us in LC? If so, then I agree that Abner, as IJ's teacher and surrogate father holds the key to answering the question of just how dark IJ really is.

As for Marion, even just giving her a scene (i.e., as you say, giving Indy a clue) or having her just send Indy a letter/package would require some sort of explanation as to what happened to the IJ/Marion relationship. In my opinion, that's just too much exposition. . . .and it's the type of dilemma that the writer would just as soon avoid. If there's an Abner storyline, Marion's status has to be addressed and I don't see how it can be done well. The easy thing would be to have Marion dead from the beginning of the movie and then lead into the main story -- again with a long dead Abner.

Back to the age thing, I think an old flesh and blood Abner as the major villain wouldn't be a good idea. I want to see IJ against a younger villain. As I've said before in discussion on IJ's age, I want to see IJ succeed like John Wayne in Rio Bravo -- without there being a big fuss about his age but appearent to all that here is an older hero whose best days are behind him. I think that type of story would work best with a younger bad-guy.



[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-05-2004 at 03:37 pm]

(I think that this thread has probably reached its logical conclusion)

Just as a final response to Joe i would like to apologise for using the phrase mystery of Indiana Jones (shudder), it is enormously corny and i felt dirty for using it

I don't think that Marion need play an enormous part they could have a phonecall conversation as Darabout has said perhaps speaking about old times and mentioning Abner in passing in a 30 second phone conversation which reawakens Indys adventuring spirit or what not. Then Indy is on his own, yes i know i have moved the goal posts slightly but this is a way it could work.

Or there could be a new character to take Indy off on the quest

The actual discovery of Abner i visualised as happening more in the field as Indy learns that this was what Abner was after when he 'died' and there could even be brief flashback sequences.

I can see the appeal of a young villain and i am not going to defend this idea to the death for me it is something that is almost certainly not going to happen but a cool what if that could possibly work in Indy IV.

Renderking Fisk said:

The only way of thee being any ?Return? of Abner has to be in some way a ?past tense?. Much in the way of Jones seeing himself at the cross roads of being more like Broady or Ravenwood, neither prospect being very good. More Film-Noir.

The notion that "Something" left behind by Abner is nuts for a few reasons. The Ark was his obsession. You would get the impression that he ruined his career for his quest for the ark. He was a proffessor of College, perhaps tenured... working on a pension and next thing you know, he drops everything and takes up dragging his daughter all over the world. He RUINED his life trying to find The Ark. The notion that he might have had time to search for something else and leave it behind for Jones to pick up the search.

Abner was a mess? and he was selfish and obsessed. It?s that attatude and he way he treated his daughter proves TO ME that he was "Fedora" in Last Crusade.

::Laughs as Kevin's head spins and bursts into giant chunks of burning meat::

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uhhhhhhhhh, okay, I think you've been spending a wee bit too much time with Aaron G


and just because abner was a mess (your speculation), doesn't mean that he is the same man? this is indy, it is not a small universe....look at something like 24, the same charactors keep coming back cause everyone seems to have no life but to influence this charactor! just because 2 charactors seem to be similar doesn't mean that they are the same! there are plenty of people in the world, scattered throughout, that are similar, that does not make them all the same person......I still don't see how anyone can say that 'fedora' was abner (mabey you just feel sorry for him cause he doesn't have a normal name )

00Kevin said:

Renderking Fisk said:

The only way of thee being any ?Return? of Abner has to be in some way a ?past tense?. Much in the way of Jones seeing himself at the cross roads of being more like Broady or Ravenwood, neither prospect being very good. More Film-Noir.

The notion that "Something" left behind by Abner is nuts for a few reasons. The Ark was his obsession. You would get the impression that he ruined his career for his quest for the ark. He was a proffessor of College, perhaps tenured... working on a pension and next thing you know, he drops everything and takes up dragging his daughter all over the world. He RUINED his life trying to find The Ark. The notion that he might have had time to search for something else and leave it behind for Jones to pick up the search.

Abner was a mess? and he was selfish and obsessed. It?s that attatude and he way he treated his daughter proves TO ME that he was "Fedora" in Last Crusade.

::Laughs as Kevin's head spins and bursts into giant chunks of burning meat::

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uhhhhhhhhh, okay, I think you've been spending a wee bit too much time with Aaron G


and just because abner was a mess (your speculation), doesn't mean that he is the same man? this is indy, it is not a small universe....look at something like 24, the same charactors keep coming back cause everyone seems to have no life but to influence this charactor! just because 2 charactors seem to be similar doesn't mean that they are the same! there are plenty of people in the world, scattered throughout, that are similar, that does not make them all the same person......I still don't see how anyone can say that 'fedora' was abner (mabey you just feel sorry for him cause he doesn't have a normal name )

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Does anyone find it strange that Jack (from 24) is the only man to endure so much in just 3 short days. (3rd season, 24 being the hours in a given day?) j/k 00Kev.

Anyway, I feel that if bob truely has the idea of how ID4 should progress. The introduction of Abner is a great way for Indy to pursue his destiny in this next installment. Rumours are the only thing accounting for his death, and with the element of the cold war, "secrecy essential to success."

noirish, bookending, and plausible.

If it's true that "Abner" was used as the character's name, I'm glad they changed it and left him anonymous. One of the things that kind of irks me about Star Wars is how it starts to feel like one big dysfunctional family-- everyone's paths have crossed, and what should feel like a huge galaxy ends up feeling like a small group. So I'm glad Lucas ultimately decided not to put Abner in Last Crusade.

I do think it's possible that Abner COULD have left something else behind for Indy to chase. If, as you said, Abner WAS Fedora, then you're already agreeing that he had time for pursuits other than his one for the ark. I personally don't think Fedora is Abner, but I agree that a man like Abner would have had time for other pursuits.

But, all things considered, it might be best not to use Abner as a plot device at all. It's been used already in Raiders. And, if Indy 4 follows the footsteps of previous Indy movies, it won't tie-in to the other movies to heavily. It will stand completely on its own, and we won't need to know who Abner is.

Re: Deja Vu`

Renderking Fisk said:

But I'm sorry, guy... Abner IS dead. The way Marion said it, the way the conversation ended...

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All that means is that Marion THINKS Abner dead

Renderking Fisk said:

The only way Abner should be used is a refrence by Marion as the man Jones MIGHT become.

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Yes, that would be a decent way to use Abner if Lucas really wants to put him in there. And since it already seems that Karen Allen might be in Indy4, I could something like this transpiring.

~wanders over to a new table~

Excuse me, but I couldn't help but overhear you suggesting that Professor Ravenwood could still be alive. I have reason to believe the same as well. If I can't find Dr. Jones, perhaps I can find Ravenwood.

Personally, and you must realize this is said in confidence, I believe him to be alive as well. It is no secret that he had been corresponding with Dr. Jones as late as August of '35. He had sent a letter to Dr. Jones concerning the Temple of the Forbidden Eye down in India. We at our facility checked it out, and it is authentic. It reads,

"August 10,1935
Indiana Jones
Lost Delta Encampment
India

Indy
So you have found the mysterious temple of the forbidden eye! Congratulations! But please proceed with caution. Sources in Calcutta tell me this temple of yours has a darker side. Legend has it that Pilgrims who were lured there with promises of great gifts were never seen again!
Yours truly,
Abner Ravenwood"

I don't know what it means, Pilgrims in a Hindu land? But if Dr. Jones is about, I am sure Abner is with him.

Now tell me good sir, do you know the where abouts of Ravenwood, or Jones?

I think our friend is refering to the Disneyland ride, and it's several references to Abner.

Given that it is a Lucas approved venue (or something like that) it is curious that there are several references to Abner, when he is "supposedly" supposed to be dead.

~realizes no one is listening to him here~

The people I work for, these 'Top-men', know so much more about what Indiana Jones has been up to then you know. You all can sit here in this bar in the middle of nowhere and reminisce about a man you only think you know, or you can start talking. Either way, we will get what we want.

Now, which one of you wants to talk about Dr. Ravenwood?

AND WHERE IS MY DRINK! I THOUGHT THIS WAS A BAR?!

~removes his pipe, packs it with a fine long grain tobacco and lights it, blowing the sweet smoke into the face of a man they call bob...~