Ant Scene = Airfield Fight?

Kooshmeister

New member
While discussing why I thought CGI was necessary for the ant sequence, something occurred to me. It's basically the same thing as the airfield fight in Raiders.

You've got Indy fighting the movie's Obligatory Huge Bruiser (German Mechanic; Colonel Dovchenko) while the supporting characters are involved in side activities (truckload of Germans coming in, Marion shooting them; truckload of Russians coming in, Marion saving Mutt and Mac from them) and a "ticking clock" element that threatens all present (the gasoline threatening to blow up everything; the ants threatening to eat everyone).

It's also, storywise, an inversion of Raiders. Whereas the airfield battle precedes the harrowing truck chase, the ant scene follows the chaotic jungle chase.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Well, yeah. It's Indy's big fist fight scene, just as with the other Pat Roach in Temple.
 

Benraianajones

New member
They needed CGI for the ants because they do more than crawl and slither like on the original movies. It is hard to get ants to form a ladder, and carry a man away, to the sound of "and...action!". :whip:
 

oki9Sedo

New member
Kooshmeister said:
It's also, storywise, an inversion of Raiders. Whereas the airfield battle precedes the harrowing truck chase, the ant scene follows the chaotic jungle chase.

You noticed that too!

Anyway, yes, the Indy vs. Dovchenko fight is quite reminiscent of the airfield fight, but not too much so, I think.
 

Kooshmeister

New member
Well, I wasn't saying they recycled ideas, really, just the general theme of the sequence, with the danger building and growing more intense (i.e., as if the ants weren't enough here comes a truckload of Soviets!). Just that sort of "one thing after another" feel that the Indy/Mechanic fight had.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
It follows the same basic structure: Indy vs. big guy who outclasses him, with a background threat adding an extra element of danger to the fight, with the other heroes simultaneously having their own problems in the background.

The part where Indy puts in a last great effort and bloodies up Dovchenko's face is very like the climax of the German mechanic fight too (except this time it actually works!).
 

sandiegojones

New member
Kooshmeister said:
Well, I wasn't saying they recycled ideas, really, just the general theme of the sequence, with the danger building and growing more intense (i.e., as if the ants weren't enough here comes a truckload of Soviets!). Just that sort of "one thing after another" feel that the Indy/Mechanic fight had.
GL does this in SW a lot. Many of the action scenes or other moments reflect things that happend before.

Kind of like the motorcycle chase where Indy is like his Dad and Mutt is like Indy was.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
sandiegojones said:
GL does this in SW a lot. Many of the action scenes or other moments reflect things that happend before.

Kind of like the motorcycle chase where Indy is like his Dad and Mutt is like Indy was.

I love it. He really gets the balance right. Its similar enough to remind you of it, but different enough to be unique and memorable in and of itself.
 

James

Well-known member
Frank Marshall talks about this kind of thing in the new Indy magazine. He points out the establishing shot they re-used for the University, and how Spielberg made a point to film that teaching scene just like he did in Raiders. So it wouldn't surprise me if Spielberg was using the airfield fight as a guide.

People complained about Spielberg's involvement in KOTCS, but I'm very pleased with the efforts he made to remain true to the originals. You can also tell he's clearly enjoying himself during the behind-the-scenes footage...constantly thinking of little touches to add here and there. For example, I thought it was interesting that Marion's forceful wedding kiss wasn't scripted- but suggested by Spielberg after the first take.
 

FILMKRUSC

New member
James said:
People complained about Spielberg's involvement in KOTCS, but I'm very pleased with the efforts he made to remain true to the originals. .

If only he had remained true to the originals...

The fight/ant scene was one of the few moments in KOTCS for me that felt like the originals and a Indiana Jones film.
 

Kingsley

Member
James said:
I thought it was interesting that Marion's forceful wedding kiss wasn't scripted- but suggested by Spielberg after the first take.
If even such a thing (almost the only interesting moment in the wedding scene) wasn't scripted but suggested, I'm wondering how poor the script really was :eek:
 

torao

Moderator Emeritus
James said:
Frank Marshall talks about this kind of thing in the new Indy magazine. He points out the establishing shot they re-used for the University, and how Spielberg made a point to film that teaching scene just like he did in Raiders. So it wouldn't surprise me if Spielberg was using the airfield fight as a guide.

People complained about Spielberg's involvement in KOTCS, but I'm very pleased with the efforts he made to remain true to the originals. You can also tell he's clearly enjoying himself during the behind-the-scenes footage...constantly thinking of little touches to add here and there. For example, I thought it was interesting that Marion's forceful wedding kiss wasn't scripted- but suggested by Spielberg after the first take.

Interesting. I personally thought that the re-use of the Raiders ES was a bit too much. It was interesting to see how deeply certain images get ingrained into your subconscious and how they evoke a very strong and immediate emotional response, though.

I think that you can pretty much tell from the behind the scenes features on all of Spielberg's movies that a lot of the details sticking out, you find interesting or maybe even weird originated in his direction. Just one example for that is Harrison Ford's delivery of the "it's a date. You eat 'em" line. I think I read somewhere that Spielberg asked Ford to dub the line that way. Ever since I read/heard that I even think that the nervous movement of Indy's fingers when he's about to cross the weight-responding arrow-trap in Raiders was Spielberg's idea.

I also can't imagine Spielberg commiting to a project and only working on it half-heartedly, especially as far as the work on set is concerned. It's a weird thing to imagine Spielberg on a movie set, in his element, and not acting out his instinct and passion to make the best of each scene. The question may rather be what he deems "best" and how his impulses and ideas of what is "best" for Indy Jones have changed over the years. I suppose that some of the scenes where I was having the feeling he had sort of cut around the action (are those the scenes that are confusingly described as "lazy" by some people?) where intended to be that way.

Are there any more interesting things Marshall talks about in the interview?

Back on topic:

It's as if they had decided to just go back to basics and do the most simplistic fistfight. Over the time the fight scenes in the movie became more and more complex involving complicated moving set pieces. The main idea behind the surrounded-by-ants-fisticuff really seems to be to go back to Raiders.
In the end, though, it lacked some actual suprises and twists. The thing about the scene I like most is when it cuts to Spalko killing the ant, which is a wonderful moment and lends the whole sequence some ...uhm...juice.
 

James

Well-known member
torao said:
Are there any more interesting things Marshall talks about in the interview?

The major points he's asked about:

KOTCS' Box Office Success
He says he was very pleased by it, and that they were all worried how such an old-fashioned film would be accepted by 2008 audiences.

Spielberg's Intent
He mentions that Spielberg really just wanted to have fun with the project, and how the on set experience was like the first three films.

Second Unit Director
One of the things he shot was the exterior of Indy's house, which was actually the last physical shot of the entire film.

Too Much CGI?
He addresses the cgi criticism, pointing out that the bulk of it would've been optical f/x 20 years ago as well.

Indy 5?
Unless I'm mistaken, Marshall was the only one who implied KOTCS might be the last one. That was back in May/June, but here he says that everyone is open to making another one. (Incidentally, Ben Burtt also has a brief interview later in the magazine. Despite having his hands full with Wall*E, he says he worked overtime in order to be involved with Indy 4- and that he'd do whatever it took to return for another one.)

Passing the Torch
Marshall says passing the torch to Mutt was never their intent, although he acknowledges it would've been the obvious implication to make.
 

torao

Moderator Emeritus
James said:
The major points he's asked about:

KOTCS' Box Office Success
He says he was very pleased by it, and that they were all worried how such an old-fashioned film would be accepted by 2008 audiences.

Spielberg's Intent
He mentions that Spielberg really just wanted to have fun with the project, and how the on set experience was like the first three films.

Second Unit Director
One of the things he shot was the exterior of Indy's house, which was actually the last physical shot of the entire film.

Too Much CGI?
He addresses the cgi criticism, pointing out that the bulk of it would've been optical f/x 20 years ago as well.

Indy 5?
Unless I'm mistaken, Marshall was the only one who implied KOTCS might be the last one. That was back in May/June, but here he says that everyone is open to making another one. (Incidentally, Ben Burtt also has a brief interview later in the magazine. Despite having his hands full with Wall*E, he says he worked overtime in order to be involved with Indy 4- and that he'd do whatever it took to return for another one.)

Passing the Torch
Marshall says passing the torch to Mutt was never their intent, although he acknowledges it would've been the obvious implication to make.

Thanks for writing that down, James!
 

sandiegojones

New member
Kingsley said:
If even such a thing (almost the only interesting moment in the wedding scene) wasn't scripted but suggested, I'm wondering how poor the script really was :eek:
You know nothing about filmmaking. Lot's of things are made up "on the fly". Spontaneity is what makes things seem more real.

I guess Harrison making up the "I love you" - "I KNOW" line in The Empire Stikes Back means that the whole script sucked? :rolleyes:
 
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