"For the last 1/3rd of the movie, Indy just stands around looking at ***"

[Sankara]

@Benraianajones
This sounds good.

 

[WeAreGoingToDie]

Some Ugha warriors should have continued to chase them down the stairs, as they wouldn't have been able to flash the skull at them to scare them. Some of the warriors should have slipped and fallen on to the spikes.

But then that would make Indy just as bad as the Soviets in killing the Ugha, leaving the council of 13 to probably dispose of Indy and the gang as well.
I wouldn't mind, though, a few Ugha falling from the stairs due to their OWN actions, with Indy and the gang running ahead with no clue that the warriors are there.

 

[nitzsche]

But c'mon... who is more likely to fall from those stairs - a warrior or, say, Marion?

 

[Benraianajones]

But then that would make Indy just as bad as the Soviets in killing the Ugha, leaving the council of 13 to probably dispose of Indy and the gang as well.
I wouldn't mind, though, a few Ugha falling from the stairs due to their OWN actions, with Indy and the gang running ahead with no clue that the warriors are there.

I meant on their own actions, I said "slipped", where did I say Indy kills them. They;d be running down the stairs after Indy and co had already activated the trap, so they'd be higher up and be on steps that had retracted further in to the wall, hence why the Ugha's could have fallen to their death.

 

[James]

Yeah, I like the idea of the staircase, but I don't think it was executed well. The whole fear is that they'll be too slow and fall on the spikes, but when they do fall, they don't fall on the spikes.

But it still makes sense, because we see that the people who weren't fast enough all wore heavy armor.

 

[oki9Sedo]

But it still makes sense, because we see that the people who weren't fast enough all wore heavy armor.

Its not just about falling on the spikes, its about falling from a height in general.

 

[WeAreGoingToDie]

Fact of the matter is, after four films we all know Indy and his friends will survive so you never truly feel that he or a friend will die. Name ONE Indy film where a prominent second banana bites the dust. Closest you get is Wu Han at the intro to ToD and Mac in KOTCS, who is basically a villain anyway.

Had KOTCS been the first Indy film somebody had ever seen, I'm sure they'd get a bit more of a thrill from the stairway scene.

 

[Benraianajones]

Fact of the matter is, after four films we all know Indy and his friends will survive so you never truly feel that he or a friend will die. Name ONE Indy film where a prominent second banana bites the dust. Closest you get is Wu Han at the intro to ToD and Mac in KOTCS, who is basically a villain anyway.

Had KOTCS been the first Indy film somebody had ever seen, I'm sure they'd get a bit more of a thrill from the stairway scene.

Though seeing some deaths is still nice, and we know Indy and co wont die, so it would have been nice to see some Ugha warriors fall to their death and heighten the danger of the scene, as oppose to not see the Ugha's all killed off screen.

 

[Udvarnoky]

Fact of the matter is, after four films we all know Indy and his friends will survive so you never truly feel that he or a friend will die. Name ONE Indy film where a prominent second banana bites the dust.

We knew Indy would survive Temple of Doom. Why then is the spike chamber sequence so much better than the disappearing staircase?

But it still makes sense, because we see that the people who weren't fast enough all wore heavy armor.

The problem is you don't figure that out while you're watching the movie. Or at least, I didn't. I actually couldn't tell what I know now to be an impaled conquistador even was the first time I saw the movie. The threat is too unclear, I think. We see spikes, but they don't seem particularly voluminous or near the wall, which is where the heroes will be falling. I think the problem with the scene despite the great set work is the fact that it happens too fast, and doesn't do anything unexpected. I would have had the the entire floor filled with spikes, so that there was no way they could possibly fall without dying, and just as they fall Marion grabs onto some protrusion from the wall that turns out to be a lever that makes all the spikes disappear. Something like that, where there's actually a close call and a last second escape, would have made the scene worthy of its production values. I never felt the characters were in danger of hitting those spikes. True, I knew the characters were going to survive whatever danger they encountered. But the movie seemed to know that too, and that was the problem.

 

[WeAreGoingToDie]

We knew Indy would survive Temple of Doom. Why then is the spike chamber sequence so much better than the disappearing staircase?

I'd say because the spike chamber was a full sequence while the stairway was meant to be another short obstacle in the characters getting from point A to point B, like when Indy ran through the golden idol chamber as the arrows shot off. Granted the Raiders scene was much lower budget than the staircase, but I look at the staircase as being a smaller part of the entire getting to the skull chamber sequence. From the waterfalls to entering the chamber, they go through quite a lot. Just as from failing to balance the sand with the idol to escaping the boulder is a sequence.

 

[Darth Vile]

We knew Indy would survive Temple of Doom. Why then is the spike chamber sequence so much better than the disappearing staircase?

Because it's given more focus by Spielberg I think... which in turn, helps Williams score a better suited, more urgent piece of music for it.

I don't think the spike chamber is a better idea per se... I feel no sense of real peril for Indy (we know he's not going to die), but it's certainly better realized than the retracting staircase scene.

 

[Udvarnoky]

I don't think the spike chamber is a better idea per se... I feel no sense of real peril for Indy (we know he's not going to die), but it's certainly better realized than the retracting staircase scene.

Which is the point.

I'd say because the spike chamber was a full sequence while the stairway was meant to be another short obstacle in the characters getting from point A to point B, like when Indy ran through the golden idol chamber as the arrows shot off.

I see what you're saying, but I think the difference is that the staircase was an idea begging to be expanded upon whereas there's only so many ways you can approach the notion of Indy outrunning shooting arrows. Note though that the arrow trap in Raiders was properly set up, whereas the staircase scene is setup and payoff all at once, so we're never given a chance to really get involved.

 

[Darth Vile]

Which is the point.

Which is my point... The spike chamber is better because it has more focus/screen time. The retracting staircase is simply an aside and (I can only assume), was not conceived for the same purpose as the spike chamber or Grail quests.

 

[Udvarnoky]

Only one post ago you were saying that the disappearing staircase wasn't as well realized as the spike chamber, but now you're saying there's nothing actually wrong with it because it's meant to be an "aside." Make up your mind so I don't have to worry about being confused about how you feel.

 

[Benraianajones]

Which is my point... The spike chamber is better because it has more focus/screen time. The retracting staircase is simply an aside and (I can only assume), was not conceived for the same purpose as the spike chamber or Grail quests.

I feel more peril for the spike chamber - we at least see a spike go right next to Indy's head, and him and Shorty crouching in a corner with spikes right above and around them. Even if we know they wont die.

The retracting staircase scene could really have gripped me if it had lasted longer and they did a bit more with it, I really liked the idea, but, they didn't expand on it much. But the scene looks so good to begin with, when the camera pans up to show the height of the place.

 

[Udvarnoky]

(Darth Vile, playing catch-up here. I've been busy.)

Of course being similar too or inspired by, doesn’t make it automatically sound… but conversely, stating that it doesn’t work, doesn’t make it inherently bad.

I don't think our definition of "conversely" is coming out of the same dictionary. Also, your suggestion that I'm merely "stating that it doesn't work" is insulting. That my opinions can't render something "inherently bad" isn't something that should even need to be stated. What is it you're trying to convince me of? That you can't handle opinions? Kind of a weird place to hang around if you feel that way, don't you think?

Also, I like how instead of defending your position you're just saying, "Sure, what I'm saying is utter BS, but, so is what you're saying!" Nevermind the fact that you totally misinterpreted (intentionally?) what I'm trying to say.

Well it’s an impasse isn’t it? Automatically refuting my position neither proves you correct or me wrong…

If proof that people's opinions are correct is really what you've been looking for, then perhaps you've wasted your time.

And again, what are you saying? That since our opinions aren't proof of anything, they aren't worth airing? A weird belief from someone who's spent so much time sharing his own. Why's it taken you until now to conclude that everything we've talked about is worthless?

Also, I never qualified that particular scene in KOTCS by simply stating that it was the same as another… I was simply comparing and contrasting what I believe to be similar cinematic devices/mechanics within the same franchize.

To what purpose, then, if not the one I assumed?

Again – similar to the above… I think KOTCS was broadly in keeping with the previous 3 movies. I agree that the action in KOTCS lacked the tension/peril of, for example, Casino Royale and Bourne movies.

Who are you agreeing with, exactly? Because I don't remember bringing up Casino Royale or Bourne. I'm comparing the "peril and danger" level of Indy4 to the previous Indiana Jones movies. I thought that was the point.

However, I believe the action in TOD and particularly TLC was/is passé.

Okay, cool, but:

And even circa 20 years ago the action in TLC seemed dated when compared to the dark and brooding Batman (as it was seen at the time).

Where did this come from, and how is it relevant?

 

[Darth Vile]

Only one post ago you were saying that the disappearing staircase wasn't as well realized as the spike chamber, but now you're saying there's nothing actually wrong with it because it's meant to be an "aside." Make up your mind so I don't have to worry about being confused about how you feel.

I don't see what there is to make my mind up on... the spike chamber makes for a better "booby trap" scene for all the reasons that have been stated. I wouldn't even want to compare them really.

My assumption is that the retracting staircase wasn't conceived/directed as a scene to rival the rolling boulder, spike chamber or Grail challenges (I may be completely wrong - but that's my take). If intended to rival those scenes, Spielberg would have given it more than 30 seconds surely?

Whether or not KOTCS needs a big booby trap scene, at that particular point in the movie, is a different argument I think.

(Darth Vile, playing catch-up here. I've been busy.)

Udvarnoky - Rather than fill the page up, I'll reply with a general response to your post rather than point for point?

Firstly ? I am not trying to change your opinion, nor am I stating your perception to be false. I am simply countering some of the claims you make? I use the term ?impasse? as I feel we?ve reached a point where some of the specific opinion?s aired in this thread are understood, but simply not accepted (which is reasonable enough)?

I think we?ve both managed to articulate our views with a modicum of reason/logic, but not sure that we?ll reach an agreement on the specifics/minutia being discussed at present. Besides, I've almost forgotten what we were actually debating...

 

[nitzsche]

The retracting staircase scene could really have gripped me if it had lasted longer and they did a bit more with it, I really liked the idea, but, they didn't expand on it much. But the scene looks so good to begin with, when the camera pans up to show the height of the place.

That's really the trick though, isn't it? Making the scene more suspenseful by lengthening it would require slowing down the stairs, thus making it less suspenseful.

Instead of expanding the scene, maybe Indy could have yelled - "there're spikes at the bottom, hurry!" or "it's a deadfall!" to illustrate the danger of being impaled for those that missed the concept.

If you give the scene too much time and too many angles, you mess with the continuity of the retracting stairs and make the trap less suspenseful.

 

[Benraianajones]

That's really the trick though, isn't it? Making the scene more suspenseful by lengthening it would require slowing down the stairs, thus making it less suspenseful.

Instead of expanding the scene, maybe Indy could have yelled - "there're spikes at the bottom, hurry!" or "it's a deadfall!" to illustrate the danger of being impaled for those that missed the concept.

If you give the scene too much time and too many angles, you mess with the continuity of the retracting stairs and make the trap less suspenseful.

But lengthening it wouldn't have ruined the this scene, because it was over before it even bagan. Have an Ugha warrior fall to his death. Have one of the stone steps collapse as someone is about to jump on to it. Anything!

 

[Indy Croft]

jeeze i don't understand why you guys hate it so much