Is Indy an atheist (in Raiders)?

[Montana Smith]

It's fun to think other people are just like you are, but I don't think Indy was Catholic...I do think he believed in God if only based on Lucas' inclinations to create Indy in his own likeness, from pet to family names and intellectual interests to his own rocky relationship with his strict father. Where did he take it from there? As a College Professor he's obviously been trained and educated in varied cultures, though I'm confident he processed them through the filter of his own taught traditions, (faith included). Even Mother Theresa doubted her faith but the fact remains he was shown proof of the divinity he was taught through his experiences and ultimately married in a church, not before a judge or by Katanga...his foundation of faith was plainly illustrated.

Though there aren't any gods worth looking up to in any of the four films - nothing that should convince Indy of the value in faith in any of them:

The power of God in ROTLA was no different from the petulant tantrums of Hitler.

Shiva only did something to help the villagers and Indy after the fun of watching humans battle each other was coming to an end (intervention because the movie was ending anyway).

Grail cups that will kill if you choose poorly after evading deadly traps. And even then the power of life was limited only within the confines of the seal. It appears like the work of yet another seductive trickster.

Thirteen vengeful collectors forcing men to do their bidding, and punishing those who don't understand what they're asking for.


Indyverse is full of supernatural tricksters who are just powerful enough to make their presence felt, without choosing to interfere and get in the way of the human sport (the adventure that drives the films).

If Indy looked up to any of these otherworldly creatures, then it's because they seem to treat him well: he might assign his incredible level of luck to their intervention. But I suspect they only let him live because he provides them with so much good entertainment.

His choice to marry in a church was standard procedure for a man of his situation. He could very well have opted for a Hindu wedding, since that way also proved itself valid. And if he decided that the Grail wasn't a very Christian artifact, he could have opted to convert to Judaism.

The point is that for Indy, experiencing the things he has, there cannot be one sure path. He could be just as conflicted about his beliefs as a person who hasn't experienced anything of the supernatural.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Vindication!

Well, support in any event...

My contention has always been:

Lucas' inclination [was] to create Indy in his own likeness, from pet and family names to intellectual interests and his own rocky relationship with his strict father.

That as a result he also viewed the supernatural aspects he encountered through the filter of the faith with which he was raised. That there was one God in "Indyland" and we merely see how he has revealed himself to man and how any given culture promotes and or distorts those revelations.

Well here's what the man with the final word says!

Originally stated by George Lucas

"I believe in God. I also believe there is an elemental God that is reflected in all the religions. It's like the blind man and the elephant: All the religions are trying to describe the same thing, it's just that they are describing different aspects of it."

Does anyone question what they believe in? Of course. Do we see examples of this on screen? Possibly.

Ultimately its a film, the beauty of which we can all carry our baggage to, look through our glasses of varying tint and find meaning.

But I gots to say, that quote made me feel really REALLY good!

 

[Montana Smith]

The Religious Affiliation of Director George Lucas

Lucas was born and raised in a strongly Methodist family. After inserting religious themes into Star Wars he would eventually come to identify strongly with the Eastern religious philosophies he studied and incorporated into his movies, which were a major inspiration for "the Force." Lucas eventually came to state that his religion was "Buddhist Methodist." Gary Kurtz, a Latter-day Saint who had studied Comparative Religion extensively in college and on his own, was pivotal in introducing Lucas to Eastern religions (particularly Buddhism) and Native American religion, and discussing with Lucas how best to improve "Star Wars" by giving it a believable but sufficiently universal religious underpinning. Kurtz was the producer of "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" and also did some work on the "Star Wars" screenplay.

From: John Baxter, Mythmaker: The Life and Work of George Lucas, Avon Books: New York, NY (1999), page 16:

...the San Joaquin Valley put its stamp firmly on both Lucas and his films. Without the white upper-middle-class Methodist values he absorbed during his upbringing in this most complacent and righteous of regions, the Star Wars films, the Indiana Jones series, even the more eccentric THX1138, let alone American Graffiti, would have been very different. Indeed, they might not have existed at all, since Lucas, unlike the directors who joined him in building the New Hollywood in the sixties and seventies, is anything but a natural film-maker. Nothing in his character fits him to make films. The process irritates and bores him... It is easy to forget that Lucas, for all his fame and influence, has only directed four feature films in almost thirty year. Repeatedly he's handed the job to others, supervising from the solitude of his home, controlling the shooting by proxy, as Hollywood studio producers of the forties did.

Lucas's Protestant family background has always been evident to those who have analyzed his films. Lucas has a clearly defined belief in God, and good and evil; Lucas has been described by some as a pantheist. Lucas is a friend of Joseph Campbell, from whom he has derived much of his philosophy. Discussing the development of the idea of the Force, Lucas said: "The Force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was a basic idea common to all religions and common to primitive thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality. I believe in God and I believe in right and wrong. I also believe that there are basic tenets which through history have developed into certainties, such as 'thou shalt not kill.' I don't want to hurt other people. 'Do unto others...' is the philosophy that permeates my work." [Source: Ryder Windham. Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook. Random House (1999), pg. 11.]

...

From interview conducted by Jess Cagle, "So, What's the Deal with Leia's Hair?" in Time magazine, 29 April 2002 issue (http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020429/qa.html):

Q: The morals we learn from Darth Vader's life--about letting go and making amends--are dominant themes in 12-step programs. Did you ever go through recovery for drugs or alcohol?

A: I never did drugs. Drinking was never a problem. But I've done a lot of research, and those [morals] are very valid. The interesting thing about the 12 steps is that they work, and not just for addictive people. I'm very interested in psychology. I dabble in that stuff with my friends. I spend most of my fun time arguing, pontificating, discussing those things.

Q: What religion are you?

A: I was raised Methodist. Now let's say I'm spiritual. It's Marin County. We're all Buddhists up here.

And lots more on http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/George_Lucas.html]this page.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020429/qa.html

And lots more on http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/George_Lucas.html]this page.

Neither links go anywhere...and you don't say anything yourself.

 

[Montana Smith]

Neither links go anywhere...and you don't say anything yourself.

No, the link in the page was dead, unfortunately.

The page itself is here. (I messed up creating the link).

As I can't verify the statements I can't pass judgement on them. Though there is a lot about Lucas and Buddhism on the page, and how he was working on creating a non-denominational religion for Star Wars. I suppose that's why Lucas refers to himself as "spiritual" - it ties into the idea of a 'Force' being everywhere and in everything, and manifesting itself in differing ways.

Where did you find your quote? It didn't come up anywhere on the net when I Googled.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Where did you find your quote? It didn't come up anywhere on the net when I Googled.

 

[Montana Smith]

There's more in Kaminski's book, a hundred pages of which can be read here.

The Secret History of Star Wars: The Art of Storytelling and the Making of a Modern Epic


Michael Kaminski



“The ‘Force of others’ is what all basic religions are based on, especially the Eastern religions,” Lucas once said, “which is, essentially, that there is a force, God, whatever you want to call it.”74

The name and concept behind the Force can also be vaguely traced in influence to experimental Canadian filmmaker Arthur Lipsett’s 21-87, one
of the most influential films on Lucas during his years at USC. In one of the film’s more memorable moments, the life-energy of the universe or god is referred to as a “force,” again showing that the term and concept were common amongst counterculturalists long before Lucas made it famous. The audio clip Lipsett sampled comes from a conversation between artificial intelligence pioneer Warren S. McCulloch and cinematographer Roman Kroitor. McCulloch argues that living beings are simply highly complex machines, but Kroitor replies that there is something more to the universe: “Many people feel that in the contemplation of nature and in communication with other living things, they become aware of some kind of force, or something, behind this apparent mask which we see in front of us, and they call it God.”

Steve Silberman brought the similarity to Lucas’ attention in a 2005 interview with Wired magazine, to which Lucas said that his use of the term was “an echo of that phrase in 21-87.”75

This specific reference might have influenced this scene from the first draft of THX 1138, which contains similar phrasing:

THX
…there must be something independent; a force, reality.

SRT
You mean OMM. [the state-sanctioned deity]

THX
Not like OMM as we know him, but the reality behind the illusion of OMM.76

...

74 “The George Lucas Saga” by Kerry O’ Quinn, Starlog, July 1981

75 “Star Wars Memories” by Kerry O’ Quinn, Starlog 127, February 1988, p. 59, from Phoenix Gazette

76 The Making of Star Wars by J.W. Rinzler, 2007, p. 2

The 'Force' may be Lucas' expression of "an elemental God that is reflected in all the religions...All the religions are trying to describe the same thing, it's just that they are describing different aspects of it."

In that sense God is not reflected by any one religion, but is simply an element that can be tapped into by different means. It works that way for Indy, too. A Hindu spell will work as a Catholic one might also. It also implies that the paraphenalia of religion, that is, all the man-made rules and customs, aren't necessary: a Catholic priest would have just as much success adopting the ways of a different religion.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

...they are describing different aspects of it."

A Hindu spell will work as a Catholic one might also...

Spell and prayer are different concepts.

A spell is an incantation which is an expression of personal control.

Prayer is a petition for intercession to some power you do not control.

a Catholic priest would have just as much success adopting the ways of a different religion.

You're funny.

 

[Montana Smith]

Spell and prayer are different concepts.

A spell is an incantation which is an expression of personal control.

Prayer is a petition for intercession to some power you do not control.

Taking Wicca as an example, their followers believe in a god and a goddess, and also in a force they believe they can manipulate by casting magical spells.

Since their spells won't change the physical world they amount to prayer.

You're funny.

Not according to George. If all religions are describing the same "elemental God", why should only one religion actually be valid, and all the others misguided?

It's different in Indyverse, because it's demonstrated that there are otherworldy somethings, and it is possible to change things in the physical world by engaging with them.

Hence Indy is justified in believing that there are 'gods' out there that can be called upon, and ultimately cannot be an atheist.

Evidence of the existence of other gods and the effectiveness of magic/incantation is alluded to when Indy translates the manuscript in TOD:

The drawing shows a priest named Sankara who lived centuries ago.

WILLIE
What does the writing say?

INDIANA
It's Sanskrit. It tells the story
of Sankara climbing Mt. Kalisa
where he met the Hindu god Shiva.

WILLIE
(examining it)
That's Shiva? What's he giving
the Priest?

INDIANA
Legend says he told Sankara to go
forth and combat evil. To do that
he gave him five sacred stones that
had magical powers.

WILLIE
(looking at Indy)
You mean magical like the rock that
was stolen from that village?

Indy looks at her meaningfully.

INDIANA
It could be.​

The Sankara Stones only begin to heat up for Indy when he "repeats in Sanskrit Sankara's warning".

They also glowed for the Thuggee when they chanted.

It's prayer and spell rolled into one.

Since Shiva, or the power in the Linga, can be incited by whoever honours him/them with prayer/spell/chant, it could be that Shiva is a fickle god. That is, a trickster who allows the plot to reach its climax before permitting Indy's chanting to have an effect for good.

Prior to this the removal of the Linga from Mayapore caused their crops and livestock to perish. Shiva was of no help to them without the Stones. It is apparent that whoever possesses the Shiva Linga, and knows how to channel their power, will conjure the benevolence of Shiva. Regardless whether it's for good or evil (or else there would be no point in Mola Ram acquiring the Stones).

The Shiva Linga therefore reflect the Ark in being another form of 'radio' for connecting with a god. Though the correct method of communication wasn't initiated by Belloq.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Taking Wicca as an example...

Good Lord!

You may as well take "Jedi" as an example! It's on the UK Census as an official religion! Code 896, right near Heathen (897) and Atheist (898).

Spreading that butter over too much bread, Tana! Wicca indeed!

It's different in Indyverse, because it's demonstrated that there are otherworldy somethings, and it is possible to change things in the physical world by engaging with them.

You are free to believe what you choose, but there's more to support a single God in the "Indy-verse" than there is for your arbitrary pluralization of "something."

Well the thread deals with Raiders, not the half baked "plot" of Temple.

But now that you brought it up, what was the "power" of the "Lingas"?

 

[Montana Smith]

You are free to believe what you choose, but there's more to support a single God in the "Indy-verse" than there is for your arbitrary pluralization of "something."

Which is exactly why Lucas and Spielberg don't explain or define anything in the films, with the exception of the last one. It's enough that the supernatural exists to create a mystery. It remains a mystery, unless you impose preconceived beliefs onto them.

KOTCS is the only film to actually explain anything. For the rest it's just inexplicable happenings onto which characters place their own meaning.

Indy needs only to accept that these things exist.

But now that you brought it up, what was the "power" of the "Lingas"?

The Lingam represent Shiva. They may also be a symbol of male creative energy or of the phallus. In TOD when taken from the village the crops failed, so presumably there's something to do with fertility in Indyverse.

Ultimately, like all religions, they derive from a **** and bull story.

 

[Mickiana]

I like a theory that states all religions emanate from one ethic: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. It doesn't need a god or an explanation, let alone any dogmatic rules. The distortions that religions have become... well, that's another matter.

 

[Montana Smith]

I like a theory that states all religions emanate from one ethic: Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

I think they all emanate from fears derived from uncertainty. Worship the sun so it will rise again tomorrow, and the deities of the seasons so that conditions are kind to crops, and so on.

With time religions become more elaborate, and their meanings are interpreted to justify other acts. Fear and superstition linger still, even though science has now explained much of the workings once attributed to deities.

Marx called it "the opium of the people", and I like to think that Indy isn't addicted to a single brand. He'll treat them all with caution, as they're all dangerous to dabble with.

 

[Mickiana]

I'm quite certain I don't want to be treated unfairly. Simple enough to offer it to others. But I am still uncertain and have fears about life and death, but the ethic of treating others as you would like to be treated still makes sense even in a sea of uncertainty. We have feelings of conscience and have had for a long time in our evolutionary history. Consciousness is something that grows with evolution towards higher biological development. Why do we have this sense of empathy (not everyone does, though)? From where does it derive? I purport no answers. I just want continued discussion on the subject.

Indy displays selective empathy and sympathy. Like the rest of us, he is imperfect and prone to bias, but he does have a sense of good and bad, better and worse while never displaying any dogmatic beliefs.

 

[Montana Smith]

I'm quite certain I don't want to be treated unfairly. Simple enough to offer it to others. But I am still uncertain and have fears about life and death, but the ethic of treating others as you would like to be treated still makes sense even in a sea of uncertainty. We have feelings of conscience and have had for a long time in our evolutionary history. Consciousness is something that grows with evolution towards higher biological development. Why do we have this sense of empathy (not everyone does, though)? From where does it derive? I purport no answers. I just want continued discussion on the subject.

Ethics aren't the preserve only of religion. Nor has religion been used ethically throughout history. It bends to serve the purpose at hand. Duiring the Crusades doing unto others meant looting and killing them before they could do the same to you.

Indy displays selective empathy and sympathy. Like the rest of us, he is imperfect and prone to bias, but he does have a sense of good and bad, better and worse while never displaying any dogmatic beliefs.

His ethical standards, his definition of good and bad, is flexible. It also doesn't equate to the tenet of 'Thou shalt not steal', but he's able to bend that rule with his weak argument about museums. He was created as a rogue, and that's how he works best.

 

[Mickiana]

I totally agree with you, Montana. Man loves to try to organise things. When someone wise comes along and says a few things that are noteworthy, instead of just really listening to the meaning behind the words, we write them down and bestow upon the utterances an untouchable divinity. I think it's just that our sense of reverence coupled with an ability at abstraction over logic allows us to turn a simple quote into 'gospel'. The supernatural stuff Indy witnesses in the first three movies is silly, but that's all we have as events that may influence Indy's thinking about higher realms. I think if someone asks, "Does he believe in god or a god?", perhaps it is because they want him to. If anything his experiences should lead him not to belief, but to asking more questions.

 

[Montana Smith]

I totally agree with you, Montana. Man loves to try to organise things. When someone wise comes along and says a few things that are noteworthy, instead of just really listening to the meaning behind the words, we write them down and bestow upon the utterances an untouchable divinity. I think it's just that our sense of reverence coupled with an ability at abstraction over logic allows us to turn a simple quote into 'gospel'. The supernatural stuff Indy witnesses in the first three movies is silly, but that's all we have as events that may influence Indy's thinking about higher realms. I think if someone asks, "Does he believe in god or a god?", perhaps it is because they want him to. If anything his experiences should lead him not to belief, but to asking more questions.

And I agree with this, Mickiana. Though the question is to define the meaning of 'atheist', as in the title of the thread.

In simple terms it's the absence of belief in any Gods or spiritual beings. I suppose Indy could be atheist if he believes that the supernatural occurences are part of nature: a naturally occurring part of the universe that can be tapped into if you know how.

As the BBC page on religion puts it,

It is possible to be both atheist and religious. Virtually all Buddhists manage it, as do some adherents of other religions, such as Judaism and Christianity.

Most Buddhists, especially western Buddhists, don't spend much time worrying about whether gods exist or not - it's just not an important question.

Buddhism is essentially about living one's life so as to gain enlightenment; there may or may not be some gods or spirits around, but they're not of any real importance.

That's more of an attitude towards life, as in humanism, rather than a belief in the paranormal, which is easier to understand by imagining something with a mind and a will behind it. Therefore, how does Indy explain the unknown forces that he's witnessed?

It's possible that the Ark and the Grail have no divinity behind them, and were objected created by arcane arts channeling naturally occuring forces.

The Crystal Skull was simply explained because the beings themselves were shown to be from another dimension. That is, they are a natural part of the world, but not one normally encountered by humans. As such the IDBs are the closest thing depicted to paranormal-power wielding deities, without actually being deities.

All Indy needs to do is accept that the IDBs are capable of creating the supernatural elements he's encountered during his life. And then it would be correct to state that Indy is an atheist: he believes in a world without gods, but it's still a world with weird things beyond the human realm.

The only sticking point would be Temple of Doom, which depicts Indy invoking the paranormal using words, as in calling upon Shiva. At that stage he presumably didn't know about the IDBs, but he hoped that the religious warning would have an effect. After 1957 he could then assign this event to IDB intervention (or that because the Shivalinga were created by IDBs their power could be unlocked by a certain string of words in Sanskrit). In that case Indy could comfortably look back on 1935 and still remain an atheist.