Raiders of the Lost Ark is set during the year 1936. Egypt was an independent country that year under the protection of British troops. It doesn't make sense that German soldiers would be running around Egypt stealing artifacts and forcing the population to participate in archaeological digs. Britain and Germany were not at war until 1939. The Afrika Korps didn't step foot into Egypt until 1941. ROTLA is an entertaining film, but it's historically inaccurate (as so many of Spielberg's films are.)
German troops in Egypt in 1936?
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God'sRadio
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No Afrika Corps, never mind not in Egypt
Kooshmeister
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Well, it was an archaeological expedition, not a military operation. It just happened to be spearheaded by high-ranking members of the Wermacht. More than likely, Dietrich got some kind of special permission to be there (and promptly began abusing it, but that's neither here nor there).
As for them forcing the population to do their bidding, Sallah says, specifically, "They've hired or shanghaied every digger in Cairo." I'm sure most of the diggers were legally hired since they needed the money; those who refused would quietly "disappeared" and brought to Tanis, from which they were unlikely to escape with all the guards everywhere.
And it's not like this went unnoticed. After all, Eaton and Musgrove sure knew, which means their superiors knew. Probably some of the British knew, too. But I think they adopted a "watch and wait" policy to see precisely what it was the Nazis were up to, in the hopes of avoiding an armed conflict, meanwhile the Americans got antsy and hired Indy (more or less off the books) to ascertain the Ark's existence and acquire it.
As for them forcing the population to do their bidding, Sallah says, specifically, "They've hired or shanghaied every digger in Cairo." I'm sure most of the diggers were legally hired since they needed the money; those who refused would quietly "disappeared" and brought to Tanis, from which they were unlikely to escape with all the guards everywhere.
And it's not like this went unnoticed. After all, Eaton and Musgrove sure knew, which means their superiors knew. Probably some of the British knew, too. But I think they adopted a "watch and wait" policy to see precisely what it was the Nazis were up to, in the hopes of avoiding an armed conflict, meanwhile the Americans got antsy and hired Indy (more or less off the books) to ascertain the Ark's existence and acquire it.
DetectiveFork
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Fish1941 said:
See, this would have been a good opportunity to incorporate Captain Blumberg from Temple of Doom!
Kooshmeister
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DetectiveFork said:
Blumburtt. And he was stationed in India.
Kooshmeister
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And, I'll clarify for Stoo, retroactively the events of Temple of Doom did indeed happen before Raiders, but because the writers had not yet invented Blumburtt (or any of the other Temple characters), he did not exist as of the writing of Raiders.
Joe Brody
Well-known member
The timing of this thread is interesting. Clinton-esque, even. KotCS is a train-wreck, so some sock-puppet starts a thread about a supposed flaw in the perfection-that-is-Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark to make the point that Raiders isn't perfect.
The story in Raiders required that the Tanis action be set in British Egypt -- and basic movie-making 101 requires the bad guys be in German uniform (to give more visual flare to the picture and to show that Indy is wasting true 'bad guys').
What makes Raiders great is that even though these circumstances dictated a gross historical in-accuracy, the film-makers were not undisciplined and created a set of cirumstances that makes the use of the uniformed German defensible.
We know that the dig site was extremely remote, and we also know that the dig site had its own air-strip. Remember, the German plan to remove the Ark all along was to fly it out in the wing. Presumably, the German troops were flown in on the sly. And it was German agents that went after Indy and Marion in Cairo -- not German troops.
Also remember by 1936, the N@zi expansionist thinking was already entrenched -- so some cocky-and-not-so-smart German officer like Dietrich may well have already adopted the Casablanca mindset ("Oh, we Germans must get used to all climates, from Russia to the Sahara") and chosen to flaunt his presence in British Egypt while out in the remote desert.
The story in Raiders required that the Tanis action be set in British Egypt -- and basic movie-making 101 requires the bad guys be in German uniform (to give more visual flare to the picture and to show that Indy is wasting true 'bad guys').
What makes Raiders great is that even though these circumstances dictated a gross historical in-accuracy, the film-makers were not undisciplined and created a set of cirumstances that makes the use of the uniformed German defensible.
We know that the dig site was extremely remote, and we also know that the dig site had its own air-strip. Remember, the German plan to remove the Ark all along was to fly it out in the wing. Presumably, the German troops were flown in on the sly. And it was German agents that went after Indy and Marion in Cairo -- not German troops.
Also remember by 1936, the N@zi expansionist thinking was already entrenched -- so some cocky-and-not-so-smart German officer like Dietrich may well have already adopted the Casablanca mindset ("Oh, we Germans must get used to all climates, from Russia to the Sahara") and chosen to flaunt his presence in British Egypt while out in the remote desert.
Stoo
Well-known member
Thanks, Koosh.Kooshmeister said:
It wasn't very well-worded, was it?Exactly. One should also note that the number of troops at the dig is very small.Joe Brody said:
The only conundrum is how The Flying Wing was brought in. Arriving by air would have been
a give-away so maybe it was transported to Tanis piece-by-piece and assembled on site?
Anyway, "Raiders" is high class PULP! Knowing the historical inaccuracies are fun but to say,
"it doesn't make sense", is silly.
Ignatius Stone
New member
It's certainly a well informed observation, but it's not so blatantly erroneous as to mar the enjoyment of the movie in any way.
Rocket Surgeon
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Complimenting posts which make perfect sense.
Kooshmeister said:
Joe Brody said:
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
Joe Brody said:
Consider this: though we see the faces of the arabs hired to kill Indy and Marion in Cairo, the German agent in the back of the munitions truck screams: "Schnell! Schnell!" to the driver...
...I think it more than possible the driver was a German agent as well.
Randolph Carter
New member
A treaty was signed between the United Kingdom and Egypt in August 1936, under the terms of which Britain agreed to withdraw troops from Egypt (apart from a contingent required to train the Egyptian Army and to protect the Suez Canal).
It's possible that the British troops were in the process of withdrawing from Egypt around the time of the Tanis dig... although it would have taken a while to do this.
The German archaeological expedition at Tanis was presumably officially a civil venture, not a military one, and must have had the permission of the Egyptian and British authorities to proceed.
(Whether the authorities were fully aware that there was a heavily armed German military contingent present is another matter.)
I think I remember reading in one of the making of Raiders books that the film makers did research the Anglo-Egyptian historical situation of 1936, so they were aware of it at least.
It's possible that the British troops were in the process of withdrawing from Egypt around the time of the Tanis dig... although it would have taken a while to do this.
The German archaeological expedition at Tanis was presumably officially a civil venture, not a military one, and must have had the permission of the Egyptian and British authorities to proceed.
(Whether the authorities were fully aware that there was a heavily armed German military contingent present is another matter.)
I think I remember reading in one of the making of Raiders books that the film makers did research the Anglo-Egyptian historical situation of 1936, so they were aware of it at least.
Kooshmeister
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The novelization mentions Belloq and Dietrich hanging out at the German embassy in Cairo following the truck chase (Dietrich is a heavy smoker when he's on edge, apparently, and likes Egyptian cigarettes). Unsure what bearing this has on anything. I just randomly remembered it.
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
The only Germans we see in Cairo proper are a couple of civilian-dressed Gestapo agents who outsourced their brawling and fisticuffs to eager locals. Clearly, they were keeping a low profile.
It's only once we get out into the remote Tanis digs (three days of desert in every direction?) that we notice just how big (but not gigantic) their effort really is.
Or, as surprised Indy himself remarks, "They're not kidding, are they?"
So, somewhat plausible that they could have smuggled in their troops on the UK's watch.
It's only once we get out into the remote Tanis digs (three days of desert in every direction?) that we notice just how big (but not gigantic) their effort really is.
Or, as surprised Indy himself remarks, "They're not kidding, are they?"
So, somewhat plausible that they could have smuggled in their troops on the UK's watch.
Stoo
Well-known member
The thing is, there is a difference between the location of the real-world Tanis and the one in IndyLand.Lance Quazar said:
Nevermind 3 days. Belloq says, "If you're tyring to escape on foot, the desert is 3 weeks in every direction." The real Tanis is not remote. It's part of the Nile delta between Cairo and the Suez canal. Probably about a 30 minute drive east to the canal (as the crow flies) and even less time to reach vegetation/civilization to the north. How long would it take a person to walk 10 to 20 miles in the desert? (Walk at night!) Not 3 weeks! Belloq must have been feeding Marion some bullsh*t to stop her from trying to escape.Smuggling in troops, uniforms & weapons in various ways is indeed plausible because there really weren't that many men (perhaps 100-150 at the most) but the bigger question is: How did their VEHICLES get into Egypt without being noticed?
Yes. The Suez canal remained under British control which is why it's hard to figure out how the Germans could have had covertly brought in all of their vehicles. Getting them to Tanis would've required a very, crafty effort of disguise in order to drive them from the Suez canal (close) or from Egypt's north coast (much farther) Another possibility would've been a long-range, round-about way via a route from the west (Libya) or from the southeast (the Red Sea).Randolph Carter said:
My personal theory is that they used the back door: By ship from Germany, all the way around Europe and Africa right up into the Red Sea. From there, the vehicles were disembarked in a remote area of southern Egypt and then driven up to Tanis. The staff car could've arrived seperately, at any port with semi-decent roads, and was driven to Tanis by German agents under the guise of a civlilian automobile trip.
Do you (or anyone else) remember which book?Randolph Carter said:
Lance Quazar
Well-known member
Stoo said:The thing is, there is a difference between the location of the real-world Tanis and the one in IndyLand.
...
Belloq must have been feeding Marion some bullsh*t to stop her from trying to escape.
And it only takes them what appears to be about thirty minutes or so to drive from the Tanis digs back to Cairo anyway.
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
Marion is a tough broad, but I have a feeling it might have taken Belloq 3 weeks!Stoo said:
Stoo said:Smuggling in troops, uniforms & weapons in various ways is indeed plausible because there really weren't that many men (perhaps 100-150 at the most) but the bigger question is: How did their VEHICLES get into Egypt without being noticed?
Yes. The Suez canal remained under British control which is why it's hard to figure out how the Germans could have had covertly brought in all of their vehicles. Getting them to Tanis would've required a very, crafty effort of disguise in order to drive them from the Suez canal (close) or from Egypt's north coast (much farther) Another possibility would've been a long-range, round-about way via a route from the west (Libya) or from the southeast (the Red Sea).
My personal theory is that they used the back door: By ship from Germany, all the way around Europe and Africa right up into the Red Sea. From there, the vehicles were disembarked in a remote area of southern Egypt and then driven up to Tanis. The staff car could've arrived seperately, at any port with semi-decent roads, and was driven to Tanis by German agents under the guise of a civlilian automobile trip.
They may as well have shipped them in as cargo trucks...soldiers, weapons, and various supplies could have been flown in and or air dropped.
They got the wing in there...
There weren't all that many military vehicles as I remember, just what comprised the convoy chase, any others?
Kooshmeister
New member
Lance Quazar said:
Driving and walking are two different things. I can drive to the mall in thirty minutes, but if I walked, it'd take me almost an entire day, even if I started directly at sunup.
Rocket Surgeon said:
-Black Mercedes convertible.
-Mercedes truck.
-Mercedes offroad troop car.
-Motorcycle with sidecar (at least 2 to 3).
-Troop carrier at the airfield.
-Horch (?) staff car which drives Gobler out to the airfield and back.
-A small halftrack of some kind.
-The gasoline tanker.
-Another smallish truck of some description.
-At least one bulldozer.
-A steam shovel.
Plus a few other random trucks that appear to be for ferrying in workers or hauling dirt and such.
None are overtly "military" in nature. Almost all of the vehicles seen in and around Tanis used by the Germans are of transport or construction.
They're all military vehicles in the sense that they belong to the German army, and in point of fact, the body styles on the Mercedes troop car and the Horch at the airfield are military commissioned, but what I mean is there's nothing overly threatening, armed or dangerous like tanks or something. Even the troop car can have its big MG34 detached and be passed off as just a regular offroader and the halftrack is very small.
Consequently, driving/transporting those vehicles in on the ground, likely off ships, wouldn't raise too many eyebrows.
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