Von Stalhein
Member
I don't know but it appears on many WW2, interbellum, WW1 and perhaps even Prussian Kingdom-era uniforms.Montana Smith said:
Behind the scenes photos of Vogel's black uniform from Last Crusade?
- Thread starter Montana Smith
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Rocket Surgeon
Guest
Von Stalhein said:
So it's safe to assume the costume designer is full of it?
Rocket Surgeon said:
Stoo
Well-known member
Are you guys familiar with the Osprey "Men-at-Arms" series? I'm sure the answer to the mysterious red patch could be found in one of these books. There are (at least) 4 on SS uniforms: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/section.aspx?SectionID=37 Re: Prussia-era...How far back?Von Stalhein said:
That is an interesting quote and it wouldn't surprise me at all. Again, I am not a Neo-Nazi but the German sense of industrial design was (and still is) impeccably sharp and ahead of its time.Rocket Surgeon said:
Montana Smith
Active member
Stoo said:
Stoo, I have a good collection of books on uniforms, badges and insignia, including a couple of Ospreys on the Waffen-SS. Whilst there is an incredible amount of detail combined in these works (colour plate after colour plate of the most obscure cloth badges and cuff titles, for instance), I can't find a reference to the red patch.
It looks like a simple piece of cloth attached to the pocket by the button. I would guess it's something signifying adjutant or general staff status, since it appears in only one of the tunic photos posted by Kevin earlier.
The black aigullette is a mystery as it was used on Vogel's genuine looking black uniform as well as the custom off-white uniform. The only cords that I know existed in darker colours (black-green) were those awarded for marksmanship, yet they are of a much simpler design.
The design of Vogel's aiguillette looks perfect apart from the colour. So it's yet another design mystery: why go to such accuracy on everything but the colour?
So, Rocket, you might be right when you wrote that 'the costume designer is full of it'. If they really did find these 'genuine uniforms' they certainly uncovered a rare example!
Von Stalhein
Member
Perhaps the costume designers, or - in universe -, the Standartenführer felt that a silver aiguillette would not make his uniform look menacing and sinister enough.
Montana Smith
Active member
Von Stalhein said:
Yes, that is similar to what I just added to your 'Vogel the feminist?' thread:
Vogel is an SS-Standartenfuehrer in the premier SS regiment of its time (1938) - the Liebstandarte Adolf-Hitler. In fact, his rank would place him near the top of the command of the regiment. This would make him a big fish in a small pond, enabling him to wear a custom-coloured uniform (off-white) with custom-coloured aiguillette.
Col. Detritch
New member
When you say off white you mean a greyish colour right? Because, at first I would agree that it was white, just covered in dust and a smoke stains, but after closely examining the scene when Donovan is negotiating with the President (or whatever he was) of Haiti his uniform, in all different lights, is grey!
I don't know much about Nazi, or any other kind for that matter, uniforms but maybe, just maybe, he wore the different colour because of the considerable heat in Haiti making a black uniform redundant!
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
I don't know much about Nazi, or any other kind for that matter, uniforms but maybe, just maybe, he wore the different colour because of the considerable heat in Haiti making a black uniform redundant!
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Stoo
Well-known member
You're not wrong, Col...You're right on the money, it's just that no examples of this colour uniform seem to exist which is why one can say that Vogel had it personally made. There are examples in the past of eccentric officers who wore custom outfits (with the most famous probably being Custer, who designed his own duds) so it's entirely plausible.Col. Detritch said:I don't know much about Nazi, or any other kind for that matter, uniforms but maybe, just maybe, he wore the different colour because of the considerable heat in Haiti making a black uniform redundant!
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
P.S. It's "Hatay", don't forget. Haiti is in the Caribbean.
Montana Smith
Active member
Stoo said:You're not wrong, Col...You're right on the money, it's just that no examples of this colour uniform seem to exist which is why one can say that Vogel had it personally made. There are examples in the past of eccentric officers who wore custom outfits (with the most famous probably being Custer, who designed his own duds) so it's entirely plausible.
P.S. It's "Hatay", don't forget. Haiti is in the Caribbean.
I would agree with you both. Vogel's uniform is of the palest grey, even paler than the uniform I would associate with the SS-SD (Sicherheitsdienst - SS Security Service). The action figure has the colour a lot lighter, very much a cream colour.
Goering was famous for his custom unforms, too. Powder blue with cardinal's silk socks! Looking at later photographs of him, it's hard to imagine her was once a World War One flying Ace who was awarded the Blue Max. Fat Goering epitiomizes the excess and general lack of intelligence apparent throughout the Nazi Party - men for whom a custom uniform and dapper appearance is everything, just like Vogel.
Col., when you mentioned Haiti I was trying to work out what part of The Last Crusade you were referring to! Voodoo dolls and jungles came to mind!
Col. Detritch
New member
Oh thats right... my bad
!IMHO I liked the uniform, it felt fitting of the desert setting and brutal showdown!
M
meglio89
Guest
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Von Stalhein
Member
Which other high-up party members demonstrated a lack of intelligence similar to Vogel's?Montana Smith said:
Montana Smith
Active member
Von Stalhein said:
You can start with Hitler, Goering and Himmler and work your way down. The brains behind the party were men such as Hess and Goebbels.
Many of those in positions of power were put there because they could be controlled, either because they were willing lackeys or because they were being blackmailed. (Himmler made Reinhardt Heyrich protector of Bohemia, knowing that he had documentation to prove that Heydrich had a Jewish ancestor - the perfect blackmail).
Hitler ruled only through chaos - he would set up two offices to do the same job, so that each would spend their time bickering with each other. The more I read about the Third Reich, the more of a bureaucratic nightmare it reveals itself to be. The idea that the Germans were the master of efficiency is a myth, and I don't know how it came about, other than by propaganda.
Hitler came to power by presenting himself as the strong man in a weakened Germany. He surrounded himself with myth and paraphenalia, and men willing to follow him. It is interesting to note that Hitler did not have a personal history of hating the Jews. Their family doctor was Jewish, and when his moher died, Hitler was devastated, but thanked the doctor profusely for doing what he could to save her. Later, he set the Jews up as a common enemy, blaming them for Germany's desperate position, and set about uniting the country through propaganda and fear.
Hitler's vision was that of a madman - to believe he could defeat the Soviet Union, and allow the German nation to spread eastwards. And when being beaten, prevent his armies from retreating. At the end, in the bunker he issued the order to destroy all of Germany, since Germany had failed him. He was surrounded by people who lead him to believe that Germany could win such a war. His early successes (marching into the Ruhr, Austrian Anschluss, taking Czechoslovakia, dividing Poland with Russia) were the results of the weakness of his opposition, rather than the strength of Germany. Britain was weak because it would not listen to Churchill's advice to re-arm, and France had no stomach to fight another war.
The bottom line is that in order to move Germany along this path to destruction, required men who would follow blindly. Those that stood up for reason did not generally get heard for long...
Von Stalhein
Member
The actor Michael Byrne also plays a leather gloved SS interrogator of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in "Rogue Male" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075151/. That character might've served as a prototype for Vogel, though he was not as flamboyantly over the top and clichéd.Montana Smith said:I would agree with you both. Vogel's uniform is of the palest grey, even paler than the uniform I would associate with the SS-SD (Sicherheitsdienst - SS Security Service). The action figure has the colour a lot lighter, very much a cream colour.
Goering was famous for his custom unforms, too. Powder blue with cardinal's silk socks! Looking at later photographs of him, it's hard to imagine her was once a World War One flying Ace who was awarded the Blue Max. Fat Goering epitiomizes the excess and general lack of intelligence apparent throughout the Nazi Party - men for whom a custom uniform and dapper appearance is everything, just like Vogel.
Col., when you mentioned Haiti I was trying to work out what part of The Last Crusade you were referring to! Voodoo dolls and jungles came to mind!
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Joosse
New member
Montana Smith said:
Jews were set up as a convenient scapegoat in the Bible, because the New Testament was written during Roman times in Roman territory at the time of a Jewish uprising.
So in order to avoid persecution and gain readers they had to write something that was pro-Roman and anti-Jewish.
It was simply good marketing at the time....
WilliamBoyd8
Active member
I read a book called Munich Playground written in 1941 by a reporter named Ernest Pope.
Pope was stationed in Nazi Germany until 1939.
He met Herman Göring several times and stated that Göring liked to wear military
medals which he designed himself, and when he wanted to add a new
medal to his uniform, he would put on weight to broaden his chest.
He weighed over 300 lbs when he was taken by the Americans in 1945.
As to costumes, supposedly a Los Angeles company, "Western Costumes",
held enough Nazi uniforms to outfit a division. Given the popularity of Nazis
in films, no doubt the uniforms are in constant use.
Pope was stationed in Nazi Germany until 1939.
He met Herman Göring several times and stated that Göring liked to wear military
medals which he designed himself, and when he wanted to add a new
medal to his uniform, he would put on weight to broaden his chest.
He weighed over 300 lbs when he was taken by the Americans in 1945.
As to costumes, supposedly a Los Angeles company, "Western Costumes",
held enough Nazi uniforms to outfit a division. Given the popularity of Nazis
in films, no doubt the uniforms are in constant use.
Von Stalhein
Member
Also, his aiguilettes are black, rather than silver.Kevin said:I think you are probably right that the SS summer uniform was the basis for Vogel's costume, but I doubt he's wearing an original. Here are some pics of the summer walking out uniform:
Now compare to Vogel's, and it seems that his is much too dark, as compared to the pure white in the above pics:
It could be lighting, but my guess is that he is wearing a repro of the SS summer uniform.
ArnoldTohtFan
New member
His uniform certainly isn't white, looks closer to Waffen-SS if you ask me.
Von Stalhein
Member
Doesn't it look more like an Afrika Korps officer's uniform, or did the Waffen-SS have desert uniforms too?ArnoldTohtFan said:
Montana Smith
Active member
Von Stalhein said:
There was an SS tropical uniform (though the first pattern wasn't introduced until 1943). They were issued to men serving in Italy, the Balkans and southern Russia, and to the small numbers of SS-Einsatzkommando in Tunis.
Tropical uniforms were of the same pattern as the regular field grey uniforms, but made from the light drill material.
An exception would be those made from the same material and pattern as the Italian army "sahariana":
Vogel's tropical tunic is a version of the normal black or white SS-Allgemeine uniform in a different colour, complete with single shoulder board, so is therefore very likely a movie fantasy, best explained as an officer's bespoke item.