Calling all video editors and effects artists

[indyjones2131]

indyjones 2131,

I think for the majority of people who like it, editing elements out will not add value. Like emtiem, I like some of those lines you list... so there is a good chance an edit will be detrimental to the movie. For those who don't like it, as Udvarnoky states, edits probably won't go deep enough to resolve their key issues. However, as someone who enjoyed the movie, I'd still be curious to see what the finished article looked like and see how you achieved it (if you achieve a technically good edit).

Anyways - good luck with it...

The first rule of the edit is that if you can tell it's been altered, then it doesn't make the cut. It HAS TO BE SEAMLESS and that's just what we're achieving over there.

And why is everyone so focused on the CUTTING? Sure that's a big part of it, but we are ADDING so much as well. For example, during the Spell of the Skull visions that Indy sees we've added a shot of Marion, of a young Ox, etc. Hell, we added a folded newspaper to Stanworth's desk in the end that had a headline to wrap up the Indy is a Red storyline (which wasn't really mentioned again in the movie). Point is that newspaper looks as though it was there all along. It's incredible. We have Indy actually firing his gun in the cemetery - something he doesn't do in the whole film. Even the climax is fuller. Instead of cutting, we added a new death for Spalko, made the aliens look more mysterious instead of heavily CG'd.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this film MUST BE EDITED, but I would hope you'd see for yourselves the care and love of Indy that we are putting into this. Also, I'd advise not judging our edit from the Joint Task Force thread - that only shows clips from those of us who are unexperienced a this which is why we need the help of a pro. The DECONTAMINATED thread down the list a bit shows whats possible when pros do the work and even those clips aren't quite to a finished state. Check it out.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that this film MUST BE EDITED, but I would hope you'd see for yourselves the care and love of Indy that we are putting into this. The DECONTAMINATED thread down the list a bit shows whats possible when pros do the work and even those clips aren't quite to a finished state. Check it out.

Sounds interesting...is it available for viewing with out participating in a membership drive?

 

[emtiem]

Unfortunately, the "Damn I though that was closer" line is NOT AT ALL classic Indy.

Well either it is a matter of opinion or it isn't!

Classic Indy wouldn't have paused between two Nazis DURING THE ACTION to give a witty line. He would have given a classic Indy look of course, but no line. Ford can give an expression that says "Damn I though that was closer" and more! So let him do that! Why force a line too? Can you imagine in Raiders when Indy is fighting by the flying wing if he paused after barely getting out of the way of the tire and said "Damn, that was a close call!" Terrible. Does it ruin the movie? No, not by itself.

Well I can see where you're coming from: but I certainly don't think it's a moment that I've ever cringed over- and besides; you're talking about removing the entire unintentional swing back into the other truck, aren't you?

And sorry if I came off as over defensive. I am as I stated up for debate about aspects of the movie that should/shouldn't be changed. What I'm less up for is debating whether the movie as a whole should be changed. We've had too many threads going back and forth on the quality of KOTCS. There's a definite split. I"m simply asking those who HAVE PROBLEMS with the movie to contribute if they'd like to. That's it. My intention was NOT to try to convince everyone that the movie was terrible and that we all have to change it. Those who like the film as is will be unaffected by this. Their copy of the DVD will not magically change. If anyone is being defensive it's those who can't hear a bad thing said about KOTCS without getting angry and up in arms.

Well you won't convince anyone to help you by having a go at them. I think re-editing stuff is really interesting and I do like some of your suggestions for beefing up sound effects etc. but chopping out the gags does sound like some -without wanting to be insulting to anyone- fanboy wishes that you get from teenage boys who demand that there shouldn't be any gags in films they like. Sometimes Indy is just supposed to be silly. What's the point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?

 

[inuvuwow]

Sure. Let's make it more bloody too, that always helps a movie. Sheesh.

 

[indyjones2131]

"Well you won't convince anyone to help you by having a go at them."


Let me say it again: I'm not trying to CONVINCE anyone to help - especially anyone who would have taken offense at that comment. I posted a chance for those who were unsatisfied with KOTCS to do something about it AND contribute to a cool little tribute. That is it! If you like the movie as is (and I wish I did) then I wouldn't want you to join in and I wouldn't want to convince you otherwise! I respect that.



"I think re-editing stuff is really interesting and I do like some of your suggestions for beefing up sound effects etc. but chopping out the gags does sound like some -without wanting to be insulting to anyone- fanboy wishes that you get from teenage boys who demand that there shouldn't be any gags in films they like. Sometimes Indy is just supposed to be silly. What's the point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes?"

Again, good silliness is fine. Raiders had some of it, Temple had some of it, LC had some of it. But when the "fit hit the shan" it ALSO had a real sense of peril and adventure to even it out. KOTCS is just about all silliness and not good silliness either. We ARE KEEPING a lot of the jokes, but we are cutting the cheesy gags and we are also adding more of a sense of peril.

Bottom line is we're putting a LOT (over a years worth) of care and thought and effort into this because it is our opinion that the movie is lacking. We are not trying to convince otherwise those who like the film.

 

[indyjones2131]

Sure. Let's make it more bloody too, that always helps a movie. Sheesh.

Actually no, it doesn't always help a movie, but it would help this movie align more with the tone of the original trilogy: Melting faces, exploding heads, bloody fist fights, bullets to the head, burning alive, a shiskebab through the heart, ripping a heart from a chest, eaten alive by crocs, smashed by a tank, decapitated, shot in the gut...

KOTCS, in my opinion, is TOO goofy and childish. While the other films had silly moments, they were balanced with a real sense of peril - a must in any adventure movie. The goal with the blood is just to give everything a slight sense of grit and real danger. It will be subtle (if it's not or if it's not seamless, then we won't do it).

But judging by your tone you don't seem to agree with the idea that KOTCS needs help. That's cool. Some of us think it does need help and that's cool too.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

"Well you won't convince anyone to help you by having a go at them."
Let me say it again: I'm not trying to CONVINCE anyone to help - especially anyone who would have taken offense at that comment..

I have to agree, if you keep responding to these shots/complaints...it won't help! I will say again, (and no more I promise) if we could see it it might quell SOME of the naggers...but probably not!

Oh well...

Good luck, some of the cuts, while at first inspired the "what the hell" response, they grew on me and I thought it might have been so very easy to make this flick more gritty with out loosing much.

 

[indyjones2131]

Here are some examples of what can be done. KEEP IN MIND we are not necessarily using these exact clips, they are just tests:

http://www.vimeo.com/4274962

http://www.vimeo.com/4258943

http://www.vimeo.com/4257370

http://www.vimeo.com/5049124

 

[emtiem]

Again, good silliness is fine. Raiders had some of it, Temple had some of it, LC had some of it. But when the "fit hit the shan" it ALSO had a real sense of peril and adventure to even it out. KOTCS is just about all silliness and not good silliness either. We ARE KEEPING a lot of the jokes, but we are cutting the cheesy gags and we are also adding more of a sense of peril.

I'd like to see more peril in KOTCS too; but I'm not sure you'll get it by just removing the jokes.

Bottom line is we're putting a LOT (over a years worth) of care and thought and effort into this because it is our opinion that the movie is lacking. We are not trying to convince otherwise those who like the film.

Well if it works surely it'll be convincing, won't it? I don't think anyone sees KOTCS as a perfect movie.

And why is everyone so focused on the CUTTING? Sure that's a big part of it, but we are ADDING so much as well. For example, during the Spell of the Skull visions that Indy sees we've added a shot of Marion, of a young Ox, etc. Hell, we added a folded newspaper to Stanworth's desk in the end that had a headline to wrap up the Indy is a Red storyline (which wasn't really mentioned again in the movie). Point is that newspaper looks as though it was there all along. It's incredible. We have Indy actually firing his gun in the cemetery - something he doesn't do in the whole film. Even the climax is fuller. Instead of cutting, we added a new death for Spalko, made the aliens look more mysterious instead of heavily CG'd.

These sound great- I'm curious as to how you made him fire his gun. What a shame we don't have that little whip crack from the cemetery too: I wonder why they lost it.
Not sure on the visions though; that sounds like adding something for the sake of it and because it's easy to add a flashback. I'm not even sure they're relevant there.

Here are some examples of what can be done. KEEP IN MIND we are not necessarily using these exact clips, they are just tests:

http://www.vimeo.com/4274962

http://www.vimeo.com/4258943

http://www.vimeo.com/4257370

http://www.vimeo.com/5049124

These are excellently done, but I'm only really sold on the Duck one. The tree was the only part of the film that properly irritated me. I can see where you're coming from on the Jungle Chase (and I've seen the Phantom Edit: I know removing stuff like the 'bigger fish' rubbish can change a tone so I see what you're trying to achieve) but it is the big end of act three sequence and it did need the extra level that the clifftop brought. It's cleverly done so that it makes sense but if we'd been given that in the cinema I think we'd have felt short-changed by an action sequence that ends before it's begun.
And I really don't get the knife/gunfight edit: the rhythm's gone.

These are just my opinions on the ideas behind it: please don't take them personally again.

 

[indyjones2131]

Luckily, and you can surely tell from the list I posted, we are doing much more than "removing jokes". We are adding several things that will contribute to a greater sense of peril.

The cemetery gunshot isn't yet complete, but basically instead of just pointing his gun at the warrior, we use the same shot, but add muzzle flash, bullet impact and a sound effect. It's VERY CLOSE to being 100% seamless, just not quite to the level we need it to be. And yes I would also love to see the whip crack in the cemetery as well...

The jungle chase sample that I posted is NOT the one we plan to use, as I said it's just an example of some things we COULD do. Personally, I miss the sword fight. Now what I don't miss are the monkeys and crotch shots.

Your ideas and comments are encouraged!! I will not take them personally. I only got frustrated by those who acted offended that we were even editing this film even though I made it a point to say this will not be for everyone. No harm done though and I appreciate your comments.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Your ideas and comments are encouraged!! I will not take them personally. I only got frustrated by those who acted offended that we were even editing this film even though I made it a point to say this will not be for everyone. No harm done though and I appreciate your comments.

So far it's really good, will you be replacing the "part time" take with the one from the trailer? What do you anticipate the running time will be?

The wedding scene played well, but maybe the dialog could be in there a bit...faded out to barely audible then out all together.

I'd like to see that newspaper cut/red menace resolve...where was that?


I like the end of the chase/ant hill cut, but would shorten the gap between Spalko's brace for impact and Indy's final "Whoa". Personally a bit of the ants going into Dovchenko's mouth would be nice.

 

[Attila the Professor]

http://www.vimeo.com/4951676

This one's rather striking, actually. I'm not sure that it fits within the film, but it's some nice editing you've got going there.

Ironically, it's the segment that's actually from an Indy film, the Marion inclusion, that doesn't seem entirely of a piece with the rest. (Though I like how you implicitly tie that to "return.")

 

[emtiem]

The jungle chase sample that I posted is NOT the one we plan to use, as I said it's just an example of some things we COULD do. Personally, I miss the sword fight. Now what I don't miss are the monkeys and crotch shots.

Yeah, it'd be nice if it were possible to just remove some of the greenscreen closeups to highlight the stuntwork more, but I'd imagine that the sequence won't work properly without them.

 

[emtiem]

http://www.vimeo.com/4951676

This one's rather striking, actually. I'm not sure that it fits within the film, but it's some nice editing you've got going there.

Ironically, it's the segment that's actually from an Indy film, the Marion inclusion, that doesn't seem entirely of a piece with the rest. (Though I like how you implicitly tie that to "return.")

Yeah that is really nicely put together (apart from, as you say, the Marion bit) but it doesn't fit the style at all. In fact the contrast really shows how successful KOTCS is as a film made in a retro style!

I know they're only WIP, but I am a bit baffled by 'Uncanny''s warehouse and wedding scenes: I can't think what's improved by taking away most of the chase and the great stuntwork (and the shot of the Russians raising their guns: a top Spielberg bit of wit). And the wedding... eh? What's the thinking there?

 

[indyjones2131]

Yeah that is really nicely put together (apart from, as you say, the Marion bit) but it doesn't fit the style at all. In fact the contrast really shows how successful KOTCS is as a film made in a retro style!

I know they're only WIP, but I am a bit baffled by 'Uncanny''s warehouse and wedding scenes: I can't think what's improved by taking away most of the chase and the great stuntwork (and the shot of the Russians raising their guns: a top Spielberg bit of wit). And the wedding... eh? What's the thinking there?

First let me make it clear that I can't take credit for the fine work done here. I'm contributing in only an idea capacity.

Yeah I have my own issues with the Spell of the Skull visions. I like many of the ideas and themes present in the visions, but as you said the style itself is way off the mark at times and a bit too AfterEffect-ish if that makes sense. I do think the scene could be used to establish the stakes for Indy personally and the world itself. As I've said, we are NOT going to put anything in the final edit that is not 100% seamless. WIP of course...

Funny you mention the warehouse edit. I went round for round with UA on this one. Lol. I felt certain things needed to be trimmed and of course I'm not a fan of the thought that was closer line, but I have to see Indy swing on the whip!! WIP...

As for the wedding, I love Marion's Theme and think it's used well here, but maybe having some of the preachers's dialog fade into the music would work as well. We could even put Ox's dialog up front as well, then SWELL the music at the right moment. WIP...

I'll try to track down the newspaper clip. It really is very well done and wan't even completed last I saw. WIP...

Thanks for the comments! Keep em coming! And I sincerely hope someone with the editing specialfx experience we need will catch sight of this and want to contribute on a technical level.

 

[Stoo]

I dunno. Sounds like cut-cut-cut! That's at least 49 cuts as I quickly counted out of 61 points. While I might agree with a couple, that seems like an awful lot. You might just want to write your own adventure movie screenplay... (Everyone in the 'biz' always seems to complain of lack of good scripts after all.)

That's the way I look at it. While I do indulge fan-wankery in my own way, chopping the film to suit your taste is a bit too much for me. Ex. I don't like the interpretation of Marcus and other elements in "Crusade" but don't see the point in cutting out/fiddling with those parts. There's even some posters who think "Raiders" is too slow. (Please, let's hope nobody ever feels the need to go and trim that baby.)

Thanks for the comments! Keep em coming! And I sincerely hope someone with the editing specialfx experience we need will catch sight of this and want to contribute on a technical level.

Hi, 2131. It's been awhile!

I could lend a hand but despite all the things that bother me about "Skull", I'm against this idea on such a basic level...which, I suppose, comes from experiencing the shock of seeing EWOKS in "Return of the Jedi" back in the day. Coming out of the theatre I said to my friend, "That's NOT Star Wars." to which he replied, "But...it IS." Took me awhile to understand what he meant but he was right and it's the same with any film series. It's a product of the creators and the events/conversations presented in the film are what happens (like 'em or not). Accept the bad or ignore it, that's my motto.

Having said that, what I AM interested in, is ADDING deleted scenes!

In any case, I'd much prefer to rejuvinate our animated fan film which was put on ice for the summer. Good luck with your project and I must admit, I WILL watch the thing if/when it ever gets finished ("but that doesn't mean I have to like it.")

 

[Major West]

Some of the trims I can understand; a little less talking in some places is good, but I don't really get the obsession with removing all the jokes: Indy movies are supposed to be fun.

These basement dwellers just don't have a life do they.

 

[NickTurner]

On a technical level the cuts and edits and additions are very clever and quite an achievement.

Overall though, the film is basically very light and I think cutting all the humor, even if it is kinda childish, will only make it even duller.

On the whole I'm glad they at least tried to make the film different whilst still being Indy, but as of now I still think only about half of it is great. All the running around in the end got tiresome and the CG ants were too slick to be really scary. (Again - Indy light.) Actually, thinking about it now the fridge was, admittedly a WTF moment at the time, but up until then Doom Town was brilliant! And compared to the slapstick ending I'm cool with it. So I'm thinking the little jokey bits and comments actually help the film along... The chuckles help you through the rest! I don't even think the aliens were to blame - It just seemed like the story ran out and didn't hang together at the end, like it wasn't really thought through. Kinda reminds one of The Phantom Menace eh? Everyone glad to see Star Wars back but Lucas was so-obviously rusty! Took till ROTS to get back into stride. Here we were all happy to see Indy back.... well you get the picture.

 

[indyjones2131]

That's the way I look at it. While I do indulge fan-wankery in my own way, chopping the film to suit your taste is a bit too much for me. Ex. I don't like the interpretation of Marcus and other elements in "Crusade" but don't see the point in cutting out/fiddling with those parts. There's even some posters who think "Raiders" is too slow. (Please, let's hope nobody ever feels the need to go and trim that baby.)
Hi, 2131. It's been awhile!

I could lend a hand but despite all the things that bother me about "Skull", I'm against this idea on such a basic level...which, I suppose, comes from experiencing the shock of seeing EWOKS in "Return of the Jedi" back in the day. Coming out of the theatre I said to my friend, "That's NOT Star Wars." to which he replied, "But...it IS." Took me awhile to understand what he meant but he was right and it's the same with any film series. It's a product of the creators and the events/conversations presented in the film are what happens (like 'em or not). Accept the bad or ignore it, that's my motto.

Having said that, what I AM interested in, is ADDING deleted scenes!

In any case, I'd much prefer to rejuvinate our animated fan film which was put on ice for the summer. Good luck with your project and I must admit, I WILL watch the thing if/when it ever gets finished ("but that doesn't mean I have to like it.")

So you COULD be of good use, but you won't. LOL. That's cool. I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't exactly agree. It was a punch to the gut seeing KOTCS in the theater. I had plans to see it all day with different friends and family, but just saw it that once and went home to watch Raiders. I think it's cool that y'all can accept the faults of the movie or even not think there are faults, but I see a chance here to make a film that FOR ME and OTHERS deserves to stand beside the other 3. Might this not work? Might we still be left with the same or even something worse? Absolutely, but regardless it's a fun project and it actually helps you learn a lot about movie making in general and even gives you a new respect for those who made this one. To be clear there is a good bit of good stuff in this film - mainly the first half. I don't mind they used aliens - I just don't think they were used well. I don't mind that Indy had a son - I just think he and the rest of the gang took too much time from Indy doing his thing. I don't mind that it's goofy in spots - I just think it needs to be balanced with more of a sense of peril. Hopefully these proposed changes will do that.

As for the animated Indy project, just say the word. I'd love to help. Despite what we wind up with it will still be a fun learning/collaborative project.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

it's a fun project and it actually helps you learn a lot about movie making in general... To be clear there is a good bit of good stuff in this film - mainly the first half. I don't mind they used aliens - I just don't think they were used well. I don't mind that Indy had a son - I just think he and the rest of the gang took too much time from Indy doing his thing. I don't mind that it's goofy in spots - I just think it needs to be balanced with more of a sense of peril. Hopefully these proposed changes will do that.

Yes, this is very good as practice, and it illustrates the amazing impact of editing choices. It's interesting to actually note how MUCH they went for the joke in Crystal Skull...I think too much.