Dates of Destiny

[IndianaJaune]

I'm assuming the opening takes place in a French castle with the train heading back to Berlin via the French Alps as Helena points out. Lots of "official press" out there labels it as "Germany 1944", including the soundtrack. Thoughts?

The castle is definitely located in Germany in my opinion, the train is heading to Berlin and must follow the Alps which are very long and located across different countries borders, including France and Germany. So it’s assumes they must have jumped near the French side of the river ?

 

[Finn]

From historical perspective, it makes little sense that the castle would be located in Germany, since the prologue takes place in 1944. The Nazis are clearly trying to flee ahead of the impending Allied advance, yet their positions within the borders of the Fatherland wouldn't be properly threatened at that stage of the war - the Allies didn't enter Germany proper until 1945. While I could buy a German castle being threatened by Allied bombing runs in 1944, there's no way they would send paratroopers anywhere that far in the given year. To me, everything given in the movie points towards the action taking place in France with the Allies about wrap up Operation Dragoon.

But, of course, it's fiction that has played fast and loose with history before. And I feel compelled to point out that Indy spouts out one rather anachronistic line during the opening - "Berlin is in ruins, the Fuhrer's in hiding - you lost." This is something that, again, wasn't really true until 1945. (Of course, in the big picture Germany wasn't anywhere near winning the war after the summer of 1944 - their goose was pretty much cooked by then and all they could do was delay the inevitable.)

Now, one thing I wouldn't pay too much attention to is the title of a track on a soundtrack - anything not given in the movie proper (or other sources that approach matters from in-universe canon perspective) could be written off as a clerical error.

 

[IndianaJaune]

From historical perspective, it makes little sense that the castle would be located in Germany, since the prologue takes place in 1944. The Nazis are clearly trying to flee ahead of the impending Allied advance, yet their positions within the borders of the Fatherland wouldn't be properly threatened at that stage of the war - the Allies didn't enter Germany proper until 1945. While I could buy a German castle being threatened by Allied bombing runs in 1944, there's no way they would send paratroopers anywhere that far in the given year. To me, everything given in the movie points towards the action taking place in France with the Allies about wrap up Operation Dragoon.

It looks nothing like a French castle, from a historical/architectural perspective either.

Now, one thing I wouldn't pay too much attention to is the title of a track on a soundtrack - anything not given in the movie proper (or other sources that approach matters from in-universe canon perspective) could be written off as a clerical error.

An official article on Disney’s website also locates it in Germany though : « So, to give Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford) a proper sendoff, the production team constructed large set-pieces, which included a 1944 train sequence in Germany »

 

[Grizzlor]

It looks nothing like a French castle, from a historical/architectural perspective either.

An official article on Disney’s website also locates it in Germany though : « So, to give Indiana Jones (Harrison Ford) a proper sendoff, the production team constructed large set-pieces, which included a 1944 train sequence in Germany »

Nor German, because it's actually Bamburgh Castle in England. Not sure that website is the de facto standard, as there will likely be scripts leaked/uncovered. I've seen most references as "German prison camp," which of course could simply mean "controlled" by Germans. I believe it all was somewhat apocryphal.

 

[IndianaJaune]

Nor German, because it's actually Bamburgh Castle in England. Not sure that website is the de facto standard, as there will likely be scripts leaked/uncovered. I've seen most references as "German prison camp," which of course could simply mean "controlled" by Germans. I believe it all was somewhat apocryphal.

Good point about the castle ! But definitely still not French.

Maybe I’m too naive but I have a hard time believing all the official news relases, soundtrack, etc., surrounding the movie are not properly approved by the production/Disney beforehand to make sure they contain the right information. To me, the name of a track on the OST definitely has to have been validated and checked before its release.

 

[Finn]

Maybe I’m too naive but I have a hard time believing all the official news relases, soundtrack, etc., surrounding the movie are not properly approved by the production/Disney beforehand to make sure they contain the right information. To me, the name of a track on the OST definitely has to have been validated and checked before its release.

An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

 

[Grizzlor]

Good point about the castle ! But definitely still not French.

Maybe I’m too naive but I have a hard time believing all the official news relases, soundtrack, etc., surrounding the movie are not properly approved by the production/Disney beforehand to make sure they contain the right information. To me, the name of a track on the OST definitely has to have been validated and checked before its release.

Oh boy, have I some stories for you then! Lost track how many times studios just don't care what's in stuff like that, novelizations, whatever. Sometimes they are very closely watched, but often it just kind of flies under the radar.

 

[Lance Quazar]

From historical perspective, it makes little sense that the castle would be located in Germany, since the prologue takes place in 1944. The Nazis are clearly trying to flee ahead of the impending Allied advance, yet their positions within the borders of the Fatherland wouldn't be properly threatened at that stage of the war - the Allies didn't enter Germany proper until 1945. While I could buy a German castle being threatened by Allied bombing runs in 1944, there's no way they would send paratroopers anywhere that far in the given year. To me, everything given in the movie points towards the action taking place in France with the Allies about wrap up Operation Dragoon.

But, of course, it's fiction that has played fast and loose with history before. And I feel compelled to point out that Indy spouts out one rather anachronistic line during the opening - "Berlin is in ruins, the Fuhrer's in hiding - you lost." This is something that, again, wasn't really true until 1945. (Of course, in the big picture Germany wasn't anywhere near winning the war after the summer of 1944 - their goose was pretty much cooked by then and all they could do was delay the inevitable.)

Now, one thing I wouldn't pay too much attention to is the title of a track on a soundtrack - anything not given in the movie proper (or other sources that approach matters from in-universe canon perspective) could be written off as a clerical error.

Given the references to "Berlin being in ruins" and Hitler "in hiding", makes much more sense that the prologue is set in 1945.

But that's what you get when you f*** with tradition and don't put in a proper location/date stamp. Damn you, Mangold!

 

[Finn]

But that's what you get when you f*** with tradition and don't put in a proper location/date stamp. Damn you, Mangold!

"Germany 1945" would have made more sense than "France 1944". But the latter was evidently in the script, as it is what Helena says during the archive scene - so I somewhat doubt that one of the last things added in post-production would have magically fixed it.

 

[Lance Quazar]

"Germany 1945" would have made more sense than "France 1944". But the latter was evidently in the script, as it is what Helena says during the archive scene - so I somewhat doubt that one of the last things added in post-production would have magically fixed it.

You can magically fix a lot in post! Even Helena's dialogue!

 

[Finn]

You can magically fix a lot in post! Even Helena's dialogue!

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I still don't see the connection between it and the date card. How adding one would have prevented the error they likely made while writing the script?

 

[Lance Quazar]

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I still don't see the connection between it and the date card. How adding one would have prevented the error they likely made while writing the script?

I'm saying they should have fixed the error, even if it took until post to do it and they should definitely have had a date card, like ALL INDY MOVIES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE!

 

[chapter11]

I think the entire reason they didn’t have date cards is because they didn’t want them for either the flashback sequence (which would have been awkward) or the 214 BC sequence (which, I dunno, maybe they feared it would leak or be screencapped and mocked or something?). Either way, an inexcusable and honestly bewildering break with tradition!

 

[Lance Quazar]

I think the entire reason they didn’t have date cards is because they didn’t want them for either the flashback sequence (which would have been awkward) or the 214 BC sequence (which, I dunno, maybe they feared it would leak or be screencapped and mocked or something?). Either way, an inexcusable and honestly bewildering break with tradition!

Why on earth would they have it for the 214 sequence? Should be in the beginning of the movie! I would have been fine if they waited until the time jump in '69.

 

[chapter11]

Why on earth would they have it for the 214 sequence? Should be in the beginning of the movie! I would have been fine if they waited until the time jump in '69.

Well, if you have it for 1944 and again for 1969 (in keeping with the format established in Last Crusade) then conceivably you could do it for 214 BC as well, since the time card appears every time we enter a new date. Obviously this is different because Indy has never time traveled before in the films, but it’s not impossible to imagine. In fact I think it might have been amusing if they’d thrown a SIRACUSA 214 BC time card up on the screen after the reveal.

 

[IndianaJaune]

"Germany 1945" would have made more sense than "France 1944". But the latter was evidently in the script, as it is what Helena says during the archive scene - so I somewhat doubt that one of the last things added in post-production would have magically fixed it.

I think she specifically mentions « the French alps », which would make the most sense if the castle is located in Germany and the train is passing through the French alps on the frontier when Indy and Basil jump in the river.

 

[Finn]

I think she specifically mentions « the French alps », which would make the most sense if the castle is located in Germany and the train is passing through the French alps on the frontier when Indy and Basil jump in the river.

So, the train is going towards the Allied lines instead of away from them? Sorry, but that makes even less sense.

 

[propstar]

If I'm not mistaken, very early leaked pictures from the train station showed signs in french language, so I assume that the train went from France to Germany. If you compare it to history showed in movies like Monuments Men a lot of art was stolen in France and brought to Germany.

 

[Grizzlor]

We're going on and on, but Helena literally points on a map of the Alps, doesn't she? To indicate where the train stopped. So, just get a screen cap of that at some point.

 

[Forbidden Eye]

Indy says 213 BC in the classroom but in the airplane say 214 BC. Hey the man was shot in the shoulder and kidnapped on an airplane! People have made much bigger mistakes under less stressful situations.