Foreign language dialogue

[xoxo1001]

I have a hard time accepting they're not actual words. That they're slang or obscure, sure...but with the reseach done for the film I think its HIGHLY unlikely they translate to blah blah blah blah blah.

There's a simple answer out there, no doubt compounded with pronunciation problems.

I know it's hard to believe it, but that is exactly what happened. I am a native Cantonese/Mandarin speaker and I too find it hard to believe. When I first saw this film, even to this day, I'm still appalled by the butchering of the language. Anyway, let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

Take 'lie how ma' for example. I told you that it means 'how are you' in Mandarin. Well, that is not really true. 'lie how ma' only SOUNDS like the Chinese words for 'how are you'. In reality, 'lie how ma' doesn't mean 'how are you'. You can't look it up in the dictionary, because the actual words for 'how are you' are spelled differently in the Chinese Pinyin system. 'lie' becomes 'ni3', 'how' becomes 'hao3', and 'ma' becomes 'ma5'. Notice how there is a number following the letters? It is used to notate which of the 'ni' is being used. In this case, it's the third word of 'ni'. In the case of 'hao', it is the fifth 'hao'. This is quite significant, because there are literally many many words that has the same pronunciation as 'ni', hence 'ni' can actually mean quite a few things, such as 'you', 'intend', 'intimate', 'disobey' etc. This is only a small part of the problem.

[EDIT: I have to head out now, I'll be back in a bit to further explain this. =)]

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

I know it's hard to believe it, but that is exactly what happened. I am a native Cantonese/Mandarin speaker and I too find it hard to believe. When I first saw this film, even to this day, I'm still appalled by the butchering of the language. Anyway, let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

Take 'lie how ma' for example. I told you that it means 'how are you' in Mandarin. Well, that is not really true. 'lie how ma' only SOUNDS like the Chinese words for 'how are you'. In reality, 'lie how ma' doesn't mean 'how are you'. You can't look it up in the dictionary, because the actual words for 'how are you' are spelled differently in the Chinese Pinyin system. 'lie' becomes 'ni3', 'how' becomes 'hao3', and 'ma' becomes 'ma5'. Notice how there is a number following the letters? It is used to notate which of the 'ni' is being used. In this case, it's the third word of 'ni'. In the case of 'hao', it is the fifth 'hao'. This is quite significant, because there are literally many many words that has the same pronunciation as 'ni', hence 'ni' can actually mean quite a few things, such as 'you', 'intend', 'intimate', 'disobey' etc. This is only a small part of the problem.

[EDIT: I have to head out now, I'll be back in a bit to further explain this. =)]

I'm aware that volume and intonation change meaning and I'm looking forward to more of your post...thanks.

 

[Vance]

I have a hard time accepting they're not actual words. That they're slang or obscure, sure...but with the reseach done for the film I think its HIGHLY unlikely they translate to blah blah blah blah blah.

There's a simple answer out there, no doubt compounded with pronunciation problems.

Wasn't TOD the most infamous for having so little actual research and 'location care' done for the film when compared to the others? I mean, it's not like anything around Pankot could remotely be considered 'authentic' either historically or culturally. Insanely racist, yes, but accurate? Not so much...

Wouldn't surprise me if the "Chinese" done for the opening montage was slap-dash as well.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Wouldn't surprise me if the "Chinese" done for the opening montage was slap-dash as well.

It wouldn't surprise me that it was done "slap-dash" either, as a matter of fact I wouldn't be surprised if that's EXACTLY how it was handled.

Wasn't TOD the most infamous for having so little actual research and 'location care' done for the film when compared to the others?

You'll have to qualify that more since I don't agree based on your wording. Every effort was made to secure India as a location, ending on details regarding the script. The Shanghai street scenes were scouted and filmed in Macau (was it?)...I'm not following your line.

I mean, it's not like anything around Pankot could remotely be considered 'authentic' either historically or culturally. Insanely racist, yes, but accurate? Not so much...

You'll have to explain what was remotely racist in your view not to mention "insanely" racist.

But with regards to translations they certainly worked out Anything goes and taught it to Kate...

 

[Vance]

Um, Rocket Surgeon... they were kicked out of India for the script and production's overt racism and were forced into shooting in Sri Lanka. The movie was summarily banned there (and in several other countries) for quite a long time and to this day Spielberg openly condemns the movie for its racist overtones.

The film's depiction of Hindus caused controversy in India, and brought it to the attention of the country's censors, who placed a temporary ban on it.[28] The inaccurate depiction of Goddess Kali as a representative of the underworld and evil met with much criticism as she is instead the Goddess of Energy (Shakti). The depiction of Indian cuisine was also condemned as it has no relation whatsoever with "baby snakes, eyeball soup, beetles and chilled monkey brains." Shashi Tharoor has condemned the film and pointed to numerous offensive and factually inaccurate portrayals.[29] Yvette Rosser has criticized the film for contributing to racist stereotypes of Indians in western society, writing "[it] seems to have been taken as a valid portrayal of India by many teachers, since a large number of students surveyed complained that teachers referred to the eating of monkey brains."[30]

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Um, Rocket Surgeon... they were kicked out of India for the script and production's overt racism...

Um, Vance

They were never kicked out of India. As Robert Watts puts it, the demands of the Indian Government were absurd, that they wouldn't even be able to use the word Maharajah. He asked for approval to scout another location, (which doesn't support your 'location care' comment) and got it.

So THEY left India. They weren't kicked out, and weren't:

...forced into shooting in Sri Lanka.

and to this day Spielberg openly condemns the movie for its racist overtones.

He CONDEMNED it?!

When? Where? I don't believe you.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The film's depiction of Hindus caused controversy in India, and brought it to the attention of the country's censors, who placed a temporary ban on it.[28] The inaccurate depiction of Goddess Kali as a representative of the underworld and evil met with much criticism as she is instead the Goddess of Energy (Shakti). The depiction of Indian cuisine was also condemned as it has no relation whatsoever with "baby snakes, eyeball soup, beetles and chilled monkey brains." Shashi Tharoor has condemned the film and pointed to numerous offensive and factually inaccurate portrayals.[29] Yvette Rosser has criticized the film for contributing to racist stereotypes of Indians in western society, writing "[it] seems to have been taken as a valid portrayal of India by many teachers, since a large number of students surveyed complained that teachers referred to the eating of monkey brains."[30]

Wow, Wikipedia also states:

Hence, Kāli is the Goddess of Time and Change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilator of evil forces...The figure of Kāli conveys death, destruction, and the consuming aspects of reality. As such, she is also a "forbidden thing", or even death itself...

So I guess its a bit more complicated.

Its racist in itself that Shashi Tharoor would write:

Stepping goggle-eyed off Spielberg's celluloid roller-coaster, hundreds of millions of people, mostly young and impressionable people who almost certainly had never set foot in the subcontinent, met an Indian family, or read an exposition of Hinduism acquired an abiding image of India.

Yes, Shashi, stupid people. Hundreds of millions of young stupid NON INDIAN people:

Never mind that anyone with some education and a little common sense should have been able to see how absurd these propositions were the filmmakers correctly assumed that they wouldn't.

Absurd Vance, simply and astonishingly presumptuous...which shows how ignorant a position is built upon an equally presumptuous premise:

...seems to have been taken as a valid portrayal...

Wow what a bunch of bullsh!t!

 

[Vance]

They were never kicked out of India. As Robert Watts puts it, the demands of the Indian Government were absurd, that they wouldn't even be able to use the word Maharajah. He asked for approval to scout another location, (which doesn't support your 'location care' comment) and got it.

India refused to allow them to shoot, and banned the movie. They were kicked out over the script. Ahem... "whitewash" it all you want, but the movie was seen as racist by the offended parties, Speilberg and Lucas were then forced to cancel shooting there, the movie got banned in India (and other countries) and is often cited as racist in the Pankot portrayal, and it's really hard for me to not agree with that assessment.

He CONDEMNED it?!
When? Where? I don't believe you.

Businessweek's article about Temple of Doom and Speilberg.. mostly he comments on the dark tone of the movie but does say that movie went 'too far' in its portrayal of India and the Hindu.

Wow what a bunch of bullsh!t!

I worked at a Chinese restaurant in a quasi-rural area for four years in the 1980s. Believe me, Hollywood, for worse and worst, shapes a LOT of what people think of other cultures if they don't learn about them in some other way (preferably first hand).

Many people, who were admittedly ignorant (not stupid, ignorant), came out of that movie figuring that's kinda what India must have been like in the 1930s (aside from the obvious supernatural elements).

There's no way around it, a lot of Temple of Doom was just hateful, and played up either for ill-concieved laughs or to make the Hindu into 'the other' for express purposes of making them villains. There's a word for doing that, I think you know what that word is.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

India refused to allow them to shoot, and banned the movie. They were kicked out over the script.

Show me one source that states they were denied or kicked out!

Everything writen or filmed contends that LFL made the decision...no white-wash required.

the movie was seen as racist by the offended parties.

All you're doing is repeating wikipedia entries, and getting some dead wrong.

Speilberg and Lucas were then forced to cancel shooting there

You are wrong Vance. They were not forced, all accounts claimed LFL abandoned negotiations.

They had a choice! They could have capitulated....ergo not forced.

the movie got banned in India (and other countries) and is often cited as racist in the Pankot portrayal, and it's really hard for me to not agree with that assessment.

Bring it...what is racist?

Businessweek's article about Temple of Doom and Speilberg.. mostly he comments on the dark tone of the movie but does say that movie went 'too far' in its portrayal of India and the Hindu.

A far cry from condemnation Vance.

I worked at a Chinese restaurant in a quasi-rural area for four years in the 1980s. Believe me, Hollywood, for worse and worst, shapes a LOT of what people think of other cultures if they don't learn about them in some other way (preferably first hand).

No Vance, I won't believe you. I won't entrust you with presenting fact, fiction or truth. If it shapes any opinion it shapes the opinion of stupid people who can't defend what they claim in words other than: "often cited" and various gossip which is unsupported and oft repeated.

Stupid people.

Many people, who were admittedly ignorant (not stupid, ignorant), came out of that movie figuring that's kinda what India must have been like in the 1930s (aside from the obvious supernatural elements)

What?!

You know we had a guy around here who used to post things like Temple was well recieved by critics and fans but couldn't support it. Tell me who are these "many people" you talk about?

There's no way around it, a lot of Temple of Doom was just hateful, and played up either for ill-concieved laughs or to make the Hindu into 'the other' for express purposes of making them villains. There's a word for doing that, I think you know what that word is.

Vance, the first Hindu we meet in the film is a shaman, then a poor village. Are there no poor Indian villages? Does portraying one in a story on film mean ALL Indian villages are poor?

That's an ignorant premise Vance.

Where did the poor victimized villagers send Indy? To a poisoned Maharaja and an evil cult...not the whole of India.

Anyone who claims otherwise is a fool and deserves the Hell of their own making.

 

[Montana Smith]

Charges of racism made by the victims are a means towards self-empowerment. In many cases, as illustrated by history, the charges are well founded.

In post-colonial studies the views of dominant and subaltern can sometimes get a little bent out of shape. Cultures who have every right to be outraged by the imperialism of the past sometimes tackle instances in the media as if nothing has changed.

Something like Temple of Doom isn't a statement of fact, a recreation of past actions, or an assertion one way or another. Something like Temple of Doom is also more problematic, since exposing its failings exposes only the failings of the past, moderated by some modern sensibilities.

Lucas took the non-politically correct past and replayed it for a modern audience. Not as a political statement, but a cultural one, i.e., cinematic.

By 1930s/40s standards ROTLA Indy is a hero. By later standards he’s an anti-hero sometimes displaying unfashionable attitudes towards Third World peoples.

In TOD we see Indy forced to confront his own attitudes. He puts aside fortune and glory to do the better thing. This part of his character derives from his conception in the later twentieth century. Yet, he is always an inspiration of earlier imperialistic times. The Idol-grabbing Indiana Jones of 1936 still stands, because, barring 'Special Editions', that was the alternately heroic/anti-heroic character which Lucas and Spielberg wanted to present.

Indy is a conflicted character who spans the attitudes of the 1930s and the 1980s. And not to mention that the world he inhabits isn't really ours, but one of Lucas and Spielberg's imagination. Hence the China and India of TOD and their respective cultures and histories do not exactly match those that exist (and existed) in our world.

 

[xoxo1001]

Cont.

I'm aware that volume and intonation change meaning and I'm looking forward to more of your post...thanks.

Continue with what I was talking about earlier...

My point is that no translator (ex. Google Translate) will get you useful information by plugging in whatever words they have written down. It is simply impossible. First of all, Google Translator does not have the ability to translate Chinese Pinyin to any language yet. Second, the movie and related media didn't even write down the correct 'spelling'. Even though they did research on the language, all they ended up with are broken up phrases that sound sort of like Chinese, but not really Chinese (example would be Kate Capshaw's Anything Goes), so even if you plug whatever words they have written down into a translator, you're not going to get anything out of it.

If you plug in 'lie how ma', you are not going to get 'how are you', because 1) it is not the correct spelling; 2) even if you somehow found the correct spelling, you will get a different meaning for each word as I said earlier. 'ni' will mean ten different things, 'hao' will mean ten different things, and, here's the kicker, 'ma' has no actual meaning. 'ma' is used to post a question. Without this 'ma', the phrase 'ni hao ma' becomes 'ni hao' and it suddenly has a different meaning. 'ni hao ma' roughly translates to 'how are you' whereas 'ni hao' is just a simple greeting of 'hello' (literal translation would be 'ni3' = you, 'hao5' = good). So the context is very important. A translator, like Google Translate, does not have the capability to determine the 'number' of the word that is being used and the context in which these words are used. It doesn't know that by putting the word 'ma' at the end, a statement now becomes a question.

And this is only Mandarin. The other stuff you posted was in Cantonese and that's Cantonese Jyutping is very different than Chinese Pinyin.

TL;DR - It is just not possible to use translator like Google Translate to translate Indy because 1) whoever did the research did not bother to do it right. They just wrote down something that sounded like Chinese, but they used their own notation, hence whatever they have is mostly gibberish with zero meaning; 2) translators do not have the capability to distinguish context in which words are being used; 3) Google Translate does not handle Chinese Pinyin/Cantonese Jyutping.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Continue with what I was talking about earlier...

My point is that no translator (ex. Google Translate) will get you useful information by plugging in whatever words they have written down. It is simply impossible.

I agree 100%.

That's not to mean the words, however mangled by print or speech, were not conceived as coherent (and possibly pithy) responses.

My hope is that we can narrow it down, possibly eliminating what it isn't...

Your posts are appreciated for spelling out the problems in no uncertain terms...so to say!

 

[russds]

Just wondering (sorry if it's been mentioned), but have you by chance looked at the script for ToD? I believe it's on the main theraider.net website. That might at least have the exact wording/spelling used, from there it might be easier to at least know what the intended words were.

 

[Stoo]

Just wondering (sorry if it's been mentioned), but have you by chance looked at the script for ToD? I believe it's on the main theraider.net website. That might at least have the exact wording/spelling used, from there it might be easier to at least know what the intended words were.

Rocket & I have both posted what was in the script & novel. (Posts #42 and #20, respectively. They are both identical apart from 2 minor differences. (The words, "hung" and "loo nee" in the script are written in the novel as, "jung" and "loonee".)

The unfortunate thing is, none of this dialogue is anywhere near what is said in the movie.

@xoxo1001: Your posts are much appreciated! (If you haven't seen it already, you should watch the episode of Young Indy when he goes to China. He gets a language lesson!)

@Rocket and Vance: Glad to see this thread is back on track! I'd like to continue part of your conversation but will do so in the other thread: Indiana Jones: Racist?

 

[Colonel Corey]

Maybe googletranslator.com can help us all out... Yes, I said this earlier, but nobody seemed to think about it. Anyway, what we're you saying?

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Maybe googletranslator.com can help us all out...

COOL! What did it come up with?

Yes, I said this earlier, but nobody seemed to think about it.

What did they think of it?

Anyway, what we're you saying?

Aren't you going to post what googletranslator came up with?

I can't wait!

 

[Stoo]

Bump

Does anyone feel like translating the German dialogue from the deleted scenes at the Tanis dig?

For quick access on the Blu-ray bonus disc:
27:20 - 27:46 of the "From Jungle to Desert" documentary.
With more at:
35:13 - 35:26 of the 1981 PBS "Making of" documentary.

I can only make out a couple of words but it would be nice to know exactly what it being said.

 

[Archaeos]

I don't have Blu-ray, but if there is some way to get this as a file (audio or video), I am happy to volunteer.

Just unpacking my suitcase from a rather longer trip abroad, and faced with a mountain of laundry, this would be the ideal pretext to do something else

(Indy never does laundry...)

 

[Stoo]

Thanks for volunteering, Archaeos! If nobody else comes forward soon enough, then I'll send you a file.

(That said, I'd much prefer that you concentrate on continuing your contributions to: Can we get Indy Around the Globe?)

 

[ListenLiveLong]

I wonder what the soldiers right outside of the map room are saying. You know, the ones near Sallah.

 

[Archaeos]

Thanks for volunteering, Archaeos! If nobody else comes forward soon enough, then I'll send you a file.

(That said, I'd much prefer that you concentrate on continuing your contributions to: Can we get Indy Around the Globe?)

Should Archaeos and Stoo accidentally encounter each other soon, bear in mind, a sound file of this on, say, Stoo's smartphone could help Archaeos decipher your quest quickly...