How KOTCS could've been made better?

[Mickiana]

What if they had made a different movie? That might have been better.

 

[Matt deMille]

You really need to take a pill . . . While you're winding down consider Indy actually debunking one and then at the end discovering a real one.

...and while you're busying yourself seeing red, try READING the quote again.

One more thing, the Ark isn't powerful ITSELF. The power is God's. It's not a machine.

Knucklehead...

It would have helped if you'd said "consider Indy debunking one and then at the end discovering a real one" in the first place. As it is, you just threw out a negative-to-crystal-skulls comment with no context. So, I can't be faulted for taking it in any way I would. Besides, given all the negativity toward ancient alien theories I've run into before, I'm inclined to take such a post as a thinly veiled cheap-shot. Again, it would have helped if you gave it a context.

Maybe, RS, you should take the pill yourself. You're the one who went on a religious tirade after all. And if it comes down to how I should "read the quote", you should too. I was saying the legendary power of the Ark could indeed be generated by the Ark and the ancients merely thought it was the power of "God" when it wasn't. Just saying it's the "power of God" is, as you say, also "blind faith". How about all those who feel other entities and dimensions through the Mitchell-Hedges skull? Even if it were man-made, like the Ark, would that rule out its power? Or rather, does the Ark being man-made thus prove there is no God?

Indy, Oxley & gang going through the caves/tunnels come across some ancient machinery. They (especially Indy) admire it one by one how they could have such technology. The tunnels eventually reach into some sort of chamber with a gigantic, but dead, machinery (whatever it is, is up to your imagination). They stood in awe but Oxley is the one to hurry them to where they should go to. Cue the Uhga warriors scene, up till the alien skulls and the ceiling flying off into the portal. Indy and gang escapes, runs everything, but cut to the Uhga tribeswomen and children of the warriors who sruvived the shootings, they are crying at the bodies of the dead warriors and mourning the passing of their men who were so cruelly killed by the Russians. The camera pans upwards, and we see a portal in the sky. This portal, also looks remarkably like a UFO in shape from far (to satisfy you, George!). Cut to indy washed out and overlooking the area, the portal then one by one, shines a light onto the uhga tribespeople, and takes them all up, like a UFO abduction. The Uhga people are happy, they are finally reunited with their 'God'.

Cue everything else as we know (temple collpase, rocks swirl and fly, water fills up, etc). Indy:"UFO?" Oxley: "Uhga Gods. Or Interdimensional Beings.

I like this a lot. Very, very cool. Damnit, now I'm never going to be able to watch this again without thinking all this "should be there".

 

[Darth Vile]

Yes, I didn't like the waterfall bit too. I don't really know how to improve on that, but your idea is good.

It's not that I didn't like the waterfall scene, it's more to do with that I think it could be better positioned within the movie. As it stands, it feels somewhat out of place as it's not played as a major set piece that the 1hr 30 minute position demands i.e. it's more comparable with the rubber raft scene from TOD and probably best suited to an earlier part of the movie (as more of just a 'fun' sequence). Alternatively, as I mention, up the anti and actually turn it into a ballzy stand out action set piece. Position it towards the end of the movie post UFO/alien reveal, and it could play a lot more like the rope bridge sequence from TOD.

Also, I have a problem with the final being too blatantly alien and UFO. Calling them 'Gods' or at least from the viewpoint of the Ugha (and the ancient people) would , to me, more acceptable, while also similar to the 50s sci fi phenomenon. A portal would fit into the 'dimensional' thing too.

I tend to agree (and probably so would the majority here). Spielberg plays the alien angle fairly subtly for the previous 1hr 50 mins... then bang... CGI alien and flying saucer. As the rest of the movie stands, it would be better if the alien/UFO is never clearly shown (IMHO).

What if they had made a different movie? That might have been better.

I think it's always interesting/amusing to hypothesise about how things could have been played differently. We've been doing the same for the past circa 20/30 years with the original trilogy. As much as I like KOTCS (and I still maintain it's better than TOD for me), it's probably the only Indy movie where slight/moderate changes could have improved it significantly (IMHO). Therefore, there is some amusement to be had from the speculation of what if?

 

[Major Eaton]

Alternatively, if I had the power to re-shoot some of it, I'd bring Mutt's motorcycle back into play (it could have been tied to the back of a truck) and have Mutt crash his bike into Spako's jeep rather than vine swing in...

Beautiful. I like the idea of Mutt's motorcycle playing a more central role in the the jungle chase sequence and ultimately crashing it into Spalko's jeep, even if the cycle is not meant for this landscape. Love that. This is a skill that should have been used more, not sword swashbuckling! Another thing, the monkey Mutt encounters up in the vines should only have reacted with a confused, rather defensive bark(similar to the bark by the monkey to alert the Cairo henchmen of Marion's basket location in Raiders) and maybe even a swipe of the paw. The vine swinging and sword fight scenes would be cut entirely. The initial monkey encounter with Mutt is ok to keep in as long as he escapes it realistically.

I think adding some dimension to the Ugha tribespeople would be nice

Or expanding on their culture and the legend as it relates to the Skull through an added scene or two at Akator. Instead of having the uhga tribesmen break out of the walls and ceilings inside, they should have been scattered throughout the temple. The group could have a few scary encounters inside before being run out. Also, that machinery piece that you speak of, could be a component to a flying saucer the "interdemensional beings" may have left behind or didn't conceal like the mothership. Some of the uhga tribesmen could have been gathered in this room before being spooked by the group. There could be so many Akator expansion ideas.

 

[Matt deMille]

Or expanding on their culture and the legend as it relates to the Skull through an added scene or two at Akator. Instead of having the uhga tribesmen break out of the walls and ceilings inside, they should have been scattered throughout the temple. The group could have a few scary encounters inside before being run out. Also, that machinery piece that you speak of, could be a component to a flying saucer the "interdemensional beings" may have left behind or didn't conceal like the mothership. Some of the uhga tribesmen could have been gathered in this room before being spooked by the group. There could be so many Akator expansion ideas.

I love this idea!

Another possibility would have been to have the natives (the non-warriors) wait for the party outside the temple. They would have held back, but then, angered beyond belief, they approach by the thousands. As Indy and co. (and maybe some surviving Russians) are surrounded, the alien ship appears, and the natives are captured by the awe of it, allowing Indy and co. to escape. Even better would be if such a scene never clearly showed the UFO itself. Maybe just look down on the humans from the ship's POV, or show shadows falling over them, or lights on their faces or something.

Then, Indy scrambles to the top of the cliff, and sees it just for a fleeting moment, just enough to reward the audience but not be too in-your-face either.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

It would have helped if you'd said "consider Indy debunking one and then at the end discovering a real one" in the first place.

I don't believe it would have helped you Matt, I really don't.

If you've forgotten what thread you're in:

Simple ideas that would have made Indy IV so much better

What did I write?

It would have been more compelling if Indy actually debunked a crystal skull claim early in the film.

Having trouble with the written word? I can't be blamed for taking your hyper sensitivity the way I have. I suggested a simple idea to make the film better...for me. NOWHERE do I write he debunks the Akator Interdimensional beings. Which really goes to the perception that you are hardly capable of deciphring or interpreting the mysteries of the ancient world in any capacity other than fantasy.

Further, you respond with a childish backlash regarding the ark which to me is not only out of place for the thread but your understanding of the artifact and its history are deeply flawed.

...so too, is the Ark itself, ya know. The Bible tells how to build one, and it's basically a big capacitor. I'm sure that when the ancients said it shot fire or lighting, it was just the static-electricity build-up of the woolen blanket thrown over it as it was carried around.

Which is shocking in as much as you're representing the Bible as an historical document, and certainly by your post as a schematic in ways other than intended: a blueprint for faith.



In response I have done what so many others have urged and in some cases implored you to do: site sources to support your claims.

Mcrographs of silicone moulds of tool marks from the Mtchell-Hedges skull likewise indicate the use of high-speed modern carving tools. The deeply cut parallel ridges left by permanently embedded diamond abrasive are seen throughout the carved components. Some marks indicate the use of cutting tools less than a millimetre thick, which means they would have to be made of iron or steel, and the impressions of wheeled tools visible in the carved elements of one tooth (Figs. 8 and 9) are less than a millimetre in diameter. Under magnification, polished areas show parallel Hnes with a sort of skipping pattern, indicating the use of a high-speed tool.

It's hardly a rant until, admittedly in my exasperation I lightly tapped you with the powder puff name: knucklehead, (which I still believe is fitting).

Besides, given all the negativity toward ancient alien theories I've run into before, I'm inclined to take such a post as a thinly veiled cheap-shot. Again, it would have helped if you gave it a context.

You're much too emotionally charged to be considered rational, and you carry WAY to much baggage EVERYWHERE you go. Shall I pad all my posts with footnotes filled with disclaimers to the satisfaction of Matt deMille's sensibilities? No. Get a grip. Try responding more to the written word and less to the invisible words between the lines. Your "skahl-ar-lee" interpretations like:

the legendary power of the Ark could indeed be generated by the Ark and the ancients merely thought it was the power of "God" when it wasn't.

...are priceless taken within the context of your own very flawed conceptions of what is real.

Problem with the film, there was never any doubt about what he found, everyone bought into it hook line and sinker. Debunking one early would have given more weight to one he could not explain much less the finale...

 

[Major Eaton]

Another possibility would have been to have the natives (the non-warriors) wait for the party outside the temple. They would have held back, but then, angered beyond belief, they approach by the thousands. As Indy and co. (and maybe some surviving Russians) are surrounded, the alien ship appears, and the natives are captured by the awe of it, allowing Indy and co. to escape.

I like it. This is a much better escape idea than the Skull forcing the uhga warriors back.

Even better would be if such a scene never clearly showed the UFO itself. Maybe just look down on the humans from the ship's POV, or show shadows falling over them, or lights on their faces or something.

Then, Indy scrambles to the top of the cliff, and sees it just for a fleeting moment, just enough to reward the audience but not be too in-your-face either.

Hell yes! This is the ending we never got! I like the subtlety and the hint of mystery that accompanies the idea. Splendid, man. Splendid.

 

[punisher5150]

Mutt and sword fighting

Beautiful. I like the idea of Mutt's motorcycle playing a more central role in the the jungle chase sequence and ultimately crashing it into Spalko's jeep, even if the cycle is not meant for this landscape. Love that. This is a skill that should have been used more, not sword swashbuckling!

This scene just felt like it was there to give Shia an action scene, like the scene in ToD where Short Round escapes his captors and saves Indy. It tried to legitimize Mutt's involvement in the adventure and show that he was skilled and could take care of himself, that he was truly a Jones. But for me it didn't work. The entire scene should have been rethought. I do like the idea of having Mutt's motorcycle brought along, but I'm not sure that would have worked either. How about having the Ruskies bringing some all terrain motorcycles along, or even a few riding them behind the convoy and Mutt gets a hold of one. That would have given us an interesting aspect of the chase, with him outmaneuvering the remaining motorcycle riders and eventually using it to catch up with Spalko.

This gives Shia his big action scene without reverting to the ridiculous.

 

[punisher5150]

I am amazed at the response this thread has gotten.

Most of these suggestions really are simple ideas. Tiny tweaks of the script that could have been done in minutes. It makes me wonder what happened in that script-writing process, and what GL decided must remain.

I kind of got this feeling when watching the movie:

Okay, Mutt's been in the movie for an hour and a half. Let's give him something do. Swordfight Spalko while straddling two vehicles in a high speed jungle chase, then meet up with some monkeys who like you because you have the same hairstyle. Inspire the monkeys to attack the Russians after vine swinging through the jungle at 40 mph to catch up with the convoy that left you behind.

We've introduced Marion. Now let's give her something to do. Drive off the cliff into the tree and let it lower you into the river to show how smart you are.

No tweaks or rewrites. Brainstorming ideas that never got polished.

Anyway, this felt like the makings of a good movie that almost turned into the 1980s Allan Quatermain series with Richard Chamberlain: a parody of Indiana Jones. And there really is just a few minutes of screen time that caused this feeling.

Thanks for the thread response and let's keep it going to see what could have been...

 

[Major Eaton]

The entire scene should have been rethought. I do like the idea of having Mutt's motorcycle brought along, but I'm not sure that would have worked either. How about having the Ruskies bringing some all terrain motorcycles along, or even a few riding them behind the convoy and Mutt gets a hold of one. That would have given us an interesting aspect of the chase, with him outmaneuvering the remaining motorcycle riders and eventually using it to catch up with Spalko.

This gives Shia his big action scene without reverting to the ridiculous.

Nice. It does give Mutt the ability to show off his skill, give him the not-so-ridiculous action scene, and makes the Reds look more diverse(and potent) in their vehicle selection. It's fun imagining this too, especially the Reds all terrain cycles.

 

[Matt deMille]

I don't believe it would have helped you Matt, I really don't.

Maybe you should have tried it before assuming I would take a low road.

Having trouble with the written word? I can't be blamed for taking your hyper sensitivity the way I have. I suggested a simple idea to make the film better...for me. NOWHERE do I write he debunks the Akator Interdimensional beings.

Suggested . . . for you? When you post in a thread, it's offered to others. And without a context, people who read what you post are entitled to take it in other directions, just as you seem to feel free to assume one thing or another about me without my having said anything to the effect thereof.

Further, you respond with a childish backlash regarding the ark which to me is not only out of place for the thread but your understanding of the artifact and its history are deeply flawed.

At many points throughout this thread others have brought up things in no way related to KOTCS. Yet you single me out for it, when I am simply comparing one film's artifact to another, which is, actually, not out of place at all. Your singling me out, however, seems to be out of place, as are your insults out of place in *any* thread.

You're much too emotionally charged to be considered rational, and you carry WAY to much baggage EVERYWHERE you go. Shall I pad all my posts with footnotes filled with disclaimers to the satisfaction of Matt deMille's sensibilities? No. Get a grip. Try responding more to the written word and less to the invisible words between the lines. Your "skahl-ar-lee" interpretations like:...are priceless taken within the context of your own very flawed conceptions of what is real.

Me? Too much baggage? Strange to hear that, since you are the one who starting spouting Biblical passages, seemingly taking what I said personally. No, if anyone needs to get a grip, it's you, not me. Start by using calm, rational language instead of cheap-shots and insults. Such "childish rants" and phrases like "knucklehead" and "get a grip" devalue any argument you make.

Since I have no taste for flaming, consider my thoughts on this exchange of wasteful fire to be done. We've had an equal number of posts and an equal opportunity to flame each other. Let's leave it alone.

I like it. This is a much better escape idea than the Skull forcing the uhga warriors back.

Hell yes! This is the ending we never got! I like the subtlety and the hint of mystery that accompanies the idea. Splendid, man. Splendid.

Thank you, Major!

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Maybe you should have tried it before assuming I would take a low road.

I think you need to review the progression of posts, I didn't have to assume a thing. You unpacked your baggage from the ancient Aliens thread on post 92... "assuming" by using my post as a springboard for this gem:

I really don't see what people have against such artifacts as the crystal skulls.

As though I did.

Suggested . . . for you? When you post in a thread, it's offered to others. And without a context, people who read what you post are entitled to take it in other directions, just as you seem to feel free to assume one thing or another about me without my having said anything to the effect thereof.

Your sense of entitlement lead you right back into the mire of self-righteous indignation..."I hope it's a joke" indeed! Denegrating my post makes you no better than those you bemoan.

At many points throughout this thread others have brought up things in no way related to KOTCS. Yet you single me out for it, when I am simply comparing one film's artifact to another, which is, actually, not out of place at all. Your singling me out, however, seems to be out of place, as are your insults out of place in *any* thread.

Please see self-righteous indignation above...

To quote you in regards to insults:

people who read what you post are entitled to take it in other directions

Me? Too much baggage? Strange to hear that, since you are the one who starting spouting Biblical passages, seemingly taking what I said personally.

Funny how you can ignore the content of my posts and continue on a self serving "interpretation." I was hardly spouting anything, that's what's called citing sources, you may do well to take it under serious consideration. I supported my position, you on the other hand continue to "take things personally."

No, if anyone needs to get a grip, it's you, not me. Start by using calm, rational language instead of cheap-shots and insults.

Please refer to my initial post to which you asperse with your flippant remarks.

Such "childish rants" and phrases like "knucklehead" and "get a grip" devalue any argument you make.

Hardly, they are simply low impact expressions of frustration against gigantic assumptions like:

I'm inclined to take such a post as a thinly veiled cheap-shot.

Since I have no taste for flaming,

Now that you've spewed your venom? How fitting...

...consider my thoughts on this exchange of wasteful fire to be done.

I doubt that...

 

[Darth Vile]

I do like the idea of having Mutt's motorcycle brought along, but I'm not sure that would have worked either. How about having the Ruskies bringing some all terrain motorcycles along, or even a few riding them behind the convoy and Mutt gets a hold of one. That would have given us an interesting aspect of the chase, with him outmaneuvering the remaining motorcycle riders and eventually using it to catch up with Spalko.

This gives Shia his big action scene without reverting to the ridiculous.

I think Mutt's motorcycle would have worked simply because Spielberg established that they went to the trouble of taking it with them to South America... Makes me wonder what was really planned as far as the jungle chase was concerned, and what was actually ad-libbed during the actual shoot. Perhaps, on the day, they just decided that a sword fight would be better??? Again, get rid of some (if not all) of the sword fight and monkeys, and the jungle chase, as it stands, is a pretty good action sequence (although still not as good as the truck or tank chase IMHO).

Most of these suggestions really are simple ideas. Tiny tweaks of the script that could have been done in minutes. It makes me wonder what happened in that script-writing process, and what GL decided must remain.

I kind of got this feeling when watching the movie:

Okay, Mutt's been in the movie for an hour and a half. Let's give him something do. Swordfight Spalko while straddling two vehicles in a high speed jungle chase, then meet up with some monkeys who like you because you have the same hairstyle. Inspire the monkeys to attack the Russians after vine swinging through the jungle at 40 mph to catch up with the convoy that left you behind.

We've introduced Marion. Now let's give her something to do. Drive off the cliff into the tree and let it lower you into the river to show how smart you are.

No tweaks or rewrites. Brainstorming ideas that never got polished.

Anyway, this felt like the makings of a good movie that almost turned into the 1980s Allan Quatermain series with Richard Chamberlain: a parody of Indiana Jones. And there really is just a few minutes of screen time that caused this feeling.

Thanks for the thread response and let's keep it going to see what could have been...

But remember you are talking mainly about action scenes here which don't rely on good dialogue i.e. it doesn't always need numerous re-writes. Sometimes things just don't work when you piece them together, sometimes they work better than they should. The whole jungle chase sequence doesn't work as well as it possibly should, but I'd posit that it's largely due to a couple of redundant sequences (sword fight/monkeys) that drag the action down rather than something more fundamentally amiss. I'll go further and suggest that if perhaps the sword fight and vine swing had to be done without use of extensive green screen, then the scenes would have been excluded completely (making the sequence much tighter) or it would have been achieved more conventionally and better suited our Indy sensibilities. Either way, I'm not sure it's anything a rewrite could have improved.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Debunking a Crystal Skull early in the film would have fueled a fine discussion between Spalko and shackled Indy in the tent....

 

[Darth Vile]

Debunking a Crystal Skull early in the film would have fueled a fine discussion between Spalko and shackled Indy in the tent....

I'd agree with that... Unlike the Ark or the Holy Grail, the existence of Crystal Skulls isn't in dispute... but their origins are. There was an opportunity for Indy to be far more sceptical about the whole thing, but from a story telling perspective, they clearly wanted to show the Skull had power straight from the reveal in Orellana's tomb. Not sure that benefited the movie, however it is in keeping with how the other movies have treated the main Macguffin.

 

[emtiem]

I think it's a good try. For me the 'Jungle Chase' could be improved simply by editing out some of the sword fight between Mutt and Spalko (specifically the shots where it looks a little too green screen), and removing the shots of the monkeys/Mutt vine swinging. Alternatively, if I had the power to re-shoot some of it, I'd bring Mutt's motorcycle back into play (it could have been tied to the back of a truck) and have Mutt crash his bike into Spako's jeep rather than vine swing in...

Oh that's quite a nice idea: I can see that working well. In danger of being samey perhaps as we've already had a bike vs. car chase in the film, so they'd have to do something different, but as you say; it does seem weird to make a big thing of bringing it along and not using it.

I'd still stick with making more use of the Jungle Cutter, though. Have it go out of control, cutting different intersecting paths through the jungle leading to everyone taking different routes through the jungle.
Instead of Mutt vine swinging, have Indy caught up in the vines and left behind. He eventually drops onto the Cutter itself, takes control, and he bursts through the treeline in that (rather than Mutt swinging out), eating up the Ruskie jeep and leading to a bit of onboard fist-fighty action and some cliff-plummeting. Then have that crash at the ant hill. Lose the skull making the ants leave them alone: Indy and Dov should be punching it out whilst hopping between logs or something, avoiding the ant-covered ground. And eventually of course, Dov loses a hand or something to the jungle Cutter's still-whirring blades, staggers back and gets taken by the ants.

I think adding some dimension to the Ugha tribespeople would be nice and make it somewhat a happy ending for the Ugha instead of just getting their temple & land torn up and buried by tons of water and have their story end there. Also, I have a problem with the final being too blatantly alien and UFO. Calling them 'Gods' or at least from the viewpoint of the Ugha (and the ancient people) would , to me, more acceptable, while also similar to the 50s sci fi phenomenon. A portal would fit into the 'dimensional' thing too.

Makes sense to me. It'd be nice to use the Ugha more; make it feel more exotic and epic.

It's not that I didn't like the waterfall scene, it's more to do with that I think it could be better positioned within the movie. As it stands, it feels somewhat out of place as it's not played as a major set piece that the 1hr 30 minute position demands i.e. it's more comparable with the rubber raft scene from TOD and probably best suited to an earlier part of the movie (as more of just a 'fun' sequence). Alternatively, as I mention, up the anti and actually turn it into a ballzy stand out action set piece. Position it towards the end of the movie post UFO/alien reveal, and it could play a lot more like the rope bridge sequence from TOD.

Interesting; I don't dislike that idea and I see your point. It's hard to think how that could work (who would they be fighting?) but it could be a bit more perilous than it was in the finished film, certainly. Could be a raft ride out through various water conduits, but then that seems a bit too much like the temple mine cars (or rather the original Raiders version of that sequence).

 

[Hammy Skillet]

To the proponents of the "debunk the skull" idea--exactly how is that supposed to work? Remember: the one "legitimate" skull that was pilfered from the Akator chamber has been lost since the 15th or 16th century in the Indyverse. No one has been able to examine it under intense magnification. No one has been able to analyze it. Upon discovering the thing in the Chauchilla cemetery, Dr. Jones gives us his cursory professional assessment:

A seamless piece of quartz.

No [visible to his naked eye] tool marks.

Cut against the grain.

We couldn't make this even with our modern technology.

What is this thing?

Furthermore, the only legend we're given early in the film is that the skull wields an unknown but great power and was looted from a place called Akator that is constructed of great wealth and is guarded by the living dead. We aren't seriously introduced to the alien angle until the jungle interrogation in the tent with Agent Spalko--and this is hardly the beginning of the film. And at that point does Indiana really appear to be buying the extraterrestrial angle? I didn't think so. He even seems flippant about the "great power" of the skull when relating the story in the diner.

"I don't know, kid. It's just a story."

What more do you want? And how do you get it? I don't understand.

 

[Matt deMille]

Good points, Hammy. I was thinking similarly, but didn't think it through as much as you did. But your words do give me food for thought, and now I can comment further.

Indeed, debunking the skull earlier in the film would not have made the film better. Similar to what the writers said of changes made to Lord of the Rings, in particular Faramir's reaction to the Ring: To have him, as in the books, simply dismiss it would have stripped the Ring of all its dramatic and cinematic power. Instead they had Faramir be severely tempted by its power, in other words, putting its power over. Indy debunking the skull would have similarly diminished its mystique, whereas his going with the legend hypes the power. This also shows Indy's age and experience -- He's not as quick to dismiss folklore as he once was. And even back in his prime, his skepticism was balanced by other characters. Even in Raiders, while Indy is skeptical of the Ark, others are not. Look at how Marcus and the agents mystified by the mere legend of the Ark. In KOTCS, Indy's only companion is Mutt, who is supposed to listen to Indy, so he'd be inclined to believe what Indy said. If Indy thus dismissed the skull's power, Mutt would be inclined to follow suit, and then we'd have multiple characters basically criticizing the lure of the lore of the movie. Not good.

Short version: Dismissing the skull's power would have hindered, not helped the film.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

Indeed, debunking the skull earlier in the film would not have made the film better.

Undeniably your take on it would be an utter failure...conceived to undermine the idea, but of course there are many ways to make it work.

Such plot device would have served to offset the negative word of mouth the "alien" aspect of the script generated. A great example would be the death of Spock in Star Trek II. By staging it up front in the beginning of the film the expectations were diffused, a red herring so to say. Once we learn the nature of The Kobayashi Maru test, Spock's solution becomes a surprise once again and as a result more emotional.

To the proponents of the "debunk the skull" idea--exactly how is that supposed to work?

Once again, I'm not referring to the "legitimate" skull being debunked. You're asking for the EXACT process, I could offer you many. The opportunities presented in Hangar 51 could have been the red herring of the film. If Indy had escaped WITH the only remains, (a skull), to Doom town, it opens many possibilities. He could have examined it there, and it would have given the soviets reason to pursue him. Why were they looking for him in Doom Town? They already got what they came for, was it merely to soothe a bruised ego? (Hi Matt!) Indy escaping with it seems to be a good reason to chase him.

Let's say he determines it?s a fake but its consumed in the explosion, it?s an additional reason to pursue him at school...

Yeah I know if the skull is fake, what about the magnetism and blah blah blah...

Was the crate they opened the ONLY remains of the wreckage? That would be some small ship! There are many ways to deal with this as well...

Remember: the one "legitimate" skull that was pilfered from the Akator chamber has been lost since the 15th or 16th century in the Indyverse. No one has been able to examine it under intense magnification. No one has been able to analyze it. Upon discovering the thing in the Chauchilla cemetery, Dr. Jones gives us his cursory professional assessment:

A seamless piece of quartz.

No [visible to his naked eye] tool marks.

Cut against the grain.

We couldn't make this even with our modern technology.

What is this thing?

This remains, but the earlier (debunking)scene gives it more weight...

We aren't seriously introduced to the alien angle until the jungle interrogation in the tent with Agent Spalko--and this is hardly the beginning of the film.

It is where the film begins to fail though...I'm hardly alone in this sentiment.

And at that point does Indiana really appear to be buying the extraterrestrial angle? I didn't think so.

What was the effect of staring into the eyes of the Skull?

 

[indyswk]

I like this a lot. Very, very cool. Damnit, now I'm never going to be able to watch this again without thinking all this "should be there".

Thanks. It just seems more logical in that kind of order assuming working on the story that's already been steadfastly set for us to see the extent of the tech and scale of the area + tribespeople of Akator. Also, I kinda got the quote wrong. Indy didn't say 'spacemen' (i wrote "UFO"), Mutt did. And the exact thing Indy said I couldn't remember now, but Oxley replied with "interdimensional beings as point of fact.." at the flying saucer scene.