roundshort
Active member
No, I am saying that "Hitler final solution" and what happened inthe death camps were war crimes, pure and simple, and some of the people involved were arrased, tried, and sentenced as war crimals.
Our prayers go out to United Kingdom
- Thread starter indifan101
- Start date
Jay R. Zay
New member
"Vaxer, I appreciate your response and that is also what I thought he meant. I did not think he was implying that the Nazi's had done nothing wrong. However, Jay can wipe his own ass."
when he is here. i've discovered some kind of real life work that kept me from explaining to you what is obvious. and i think it IS obvious why killing jews since 1933/34 isn't a war crime when war started six years later. on the other hand, roundshort as well as you needed this explanation - so why should i wipe my own ass when you need somebody elses help to explain what you could have figured on your own? or do you think i was responsible for this misunderstanding and it was my obligation to justify what i've said? if the two of you could learn to use your brain, we could have saved ourself this episode.
"Saying no war crimes were committed in WWII by the Germans"
i didn't say so. learn to read before you write. YOU were talking about killing jews, I was talking about killing jews. killing jews is not a war crime. your example simply was bull****, you either admit this or you can discuss with somebody else. this is ridiculous.
"No, I am saying that "Hitler final solution" and what happened inthe death camps were war crimes, pure and simple, and some of the people involved were arrased, tried, and sentenced as war crimals."
but not for what happened before 1939. even to you, smarty, it should appear obvious that there can't be a war crime without a war. that's what the "war" in "war crime" stands for.
raping is illegal but you can't call something "murder" if nobody got killed. even if the rapist killed somebody else later, in the original case he is a rapist - not a murderer.
this may sound strange to you and perhaps you need some explanations about this example because you don't understand but i hope even ToJ can accept it when i ask Vaxer to explain it to you, i'm running a little bit short of patience.
when he is here. i've discovered some kind of real life work that kept me from explaining to you what is obvious. and i think it IS obvious why killing jews since 1933/34 isn't a war crime when war started six years later. on the other hand, roundshort as well as you needed this explanation - so why should i wipe my own ass when you need somebody elses help to explain what you could have figured on your own? or do you think i was responsible for this misunderstanding and it was my obligation to justify what i've said? if the two of you could learn to use your brain, we could have saved ourself this episode.
"Saying no war crimes were committed in WWII by the Germans"
i didn't say so. learn to read before you write. YOU were talking about killing jews, I was talking about killing jews. killing jews is not a war crime. your example simply was bull****, you either admit this or you can discuss with somebody else. this is ridiculous.
"No, I am saying that "Hitler final solution" and what happened inthe death camps were war crimes, pure and simple, and some of the people involved were arrased, tried, and sentenced as war crimals."
but not for what happened before 1939. even to you, smarty, it should appear obvious that there can't be a war crime without a war. that's what the "war" in "war crime" stands for.
raping is illegal but you can't call something "murder" if nobody got killed. even if the rapist killed somebody else later, in the original case he is a rapist - not a murderer.
this may sound strange to you and perhaps you need some explanations about this example because you don't understand but i hope even ToJ can accept it when i ask Vaxer to explain it to you, i'm running a little bit short of patience.
roundshort
Active member
J-Z,
I really did not understand what you just wrote, it made little sense, really very confusing, running our of patience, oh I am sorry i truly feel awful the little boy is losing his temper . . .
IF THEY WERE NOT WAR CRIMES WHY WERE THEY TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS CONVICTED, SENTENCED, MOST IN JAIL OR KILLED OR THE TRULEY CHICKEN ****S KILLED THEMSELVES.
History has condemed these acts as war crimes! With people like you I truley understand why people like me must educate the world to make sure this never happens again, I always thought it was a myth that people did not believe this stuff happened or down played it, but after reading your posts I now see that neo-nazis are truly alive thank God the I.D.F. is the second finest fighting force in the world!
I really did not understand what you just wrote, it made little sense, really very confusing, running our of patience, oh I am sorry i truly feel awful the little boy is losing his temper . . .
IF THEY WERE NOT WAR CRIMES WHY WERE THEY TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS CONVICTED, SENTENCED, MOST IN JAIL OR KILLED OR THE TRULEY CHICKEN ****S KILLED THEMSELVES.
History has condemed these acts as war crimes! With people like you I truley understand why people like me must educate the world to make sure this never happens again, I always thought it was a myth that people did not believe this stuff happened or down played it, but after reading your posts I now see that neo-nazis are truly alive thank God the I.D.F. is the second finest fighting force in the world!
roundshort
Active member
so you know:
definition of War Crime:
Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labor of civilians in an occupied territory; murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war, taking and killing hostages: plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are also considered war crimes.
Now are you trying to tell me that between the time Germany invaded Poland September 1st, 1939, until USA and our allies kicked the living crap out of the Axis?
Lets see some banner dates in war crime histroy a few low lights
26/10/ 1939 Forced labor decree issued for Polish jews aged 14 to 60 (WARCRIME)
7/03/1941 German Jews ordered into forced Labour (war crime)
03/09/1941 Gas Chambers at Auschwitz in Poland are used for the first time, using Zyklon B
I can go on, but it makes me sick,
so please tell me how these are not war crimes?
definition of War Crime:
Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labor of civilians in an occupied territory; murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war, taking and killing hostages: plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are also considered war crimes.
Now are you trying to tell me that between the time Germany invaded Poland September 1st, 1939, until USA and our allies kicked the living crap out of the Axis?
Lets see some banner dates in war crime histroy a few low lights
26/10/ 1939 Forced labor decree issued for Polish jews aged 14 to 60 (WARCRIME)
7/03/1941 German Jews ordered into forced Labour (war crime)
03/09/1941 Gas Chambers at Auschwitz in Poland are used for the first time, using Zyklon B
I can go on, but it makes me sick,
so please tell me how these are not war crimes?
Jay R. Zay
New member
"I really did not understand what you just wrote"
that's our constant situation. why is it suddenly a problem for you?
"IF THEY WERE NOT WAR CRIMES WHY WERE THEY TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS CONVICTED, SENTENCED, MOST IN JAIL OR KILLED OR THE TRULEY CHICKEN ****S KILLED THEMSELVES."
okay, another way of explaining it:
i steal $100 from my father and kill my brother. i am sentenced for murder.
now you come along and say "stealing $100 is a murder because you were sentenced for murder".
this sounds stupid? indeed.
if the people who killed jews ALSO committed war crimes, they can be senteced for war crimes ALTHOUGH killing jews is NOT a war crime.
or CAN you explain why killing jews is a war crime when there is no war? it took six years and one invasion until other countries bothered to intervene. if we hadn't started a war afterwards and just kept killing jews, what a war crime would this have been? we would have had a war crime without a war. perhaps you know how this would work, personally i don't.
"With people like you I truley understand why people like me must educate the world to make sure this never happens again"
i agree it would be a good idea to make sure war crimes can never again happen in peace time. this obviously causes a lot of confusion.
" I always thought it was a myth that people did not believe this stuff happened or down played it"
of course calling the holocaust a genocide instead of a war crime is "down playing" or "denying".
your problem is, you really don't understand what i say. this is because you believe everybody was such a nationalist, racist and patriot like you are. but while you keep denying every mistake from your country, i don't. this doesn't make a genocide a war crime, though. because, as the name says, "war crime" is a "WAR crime". not a "crime". that's the difference between a "crime" and a "WAR crime". no war, no WAR crime. even a four year old child would understand this. but perhaps this is too difficult for the average patriotic, racist american who likes to paint germany in the worst colors. you've been repeatedly calling me a nazi for no reason (except that i'm from germany), you said i was playing down history, whatever. ever got the idea that YOU are playing down? 'deliberately killing civilians is distasteful' - is this what you said about your engagement in Iraq? distasteful, indeed. i'd almost say it's "not very enjoyable" or even "not too nice".
i mean, if calling the "holocaust" a "genocide" instead of a "war crime" is playing down, what can this be? could i erase your bad impression if i'd admit that killing 4 million jews was "distasteful"? that this was "not our best idea"? would this sound better?
that's our constant situation. why is it suddenly a problem for you?
"IF THEY WERE NOT WAR CRIMES WHY WERE THEY TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS CONVICTED, SENTENCED, MOST IN JAIL OR KILLED OR THE TRULEY CHICKEN ****S KILLED THEMSELVES."
okay, another way of explaining it:
i steal $100 from my father and kill my brother. i am sentenced for murder.
now you come along and say "stealing $100 is a murder because you were sentenced for murder".
this sounds stupid? indeed.
if the people who killed jews ALSO committed war crimes, they can be senteced for war crimes ALTHOUGH killing jews is NOT a war crime.
or CAN you explain why killing jews is a war crime when there is no war? it took six years and one invasion until other countries bothered to intervene. if we hadn't started a war afterwards and just kept killing jews, what a war crime would this have been? we would have had a war crime without a war. perhaps you know how this would work, personally i don't.
"With people like you I truley understand why people like me must educate the world to make sure this never happens again"
i agree it would be a good idea to make sure war crimes can never again happen in peace time. this obviously causes a lot of confusion.
" I always thought it was a myth that people did not believe this stuff happened or down played it"
of course calling the holocaust a genocide instead of a war crime is "down playing" or "denying".
your problem is, you really don't understand what i say. this is because you believe everybody was such a nationalist, racist and patriot like you are. but while you keep denying every mistake from your country, i don't. this doesn't make a genocide a war crime, though. because, as the name says, "war crime" is a "WAR crime". not a "crime". that's the difference between a "crime" and a "WAR crime". no war, no WAR crime. even a four year old child would understand this. but perhaps this is too difficult for the average patriotic, racist american who likes to paint germany in the worst colors. you've been repeatedly calling me a nazi for no reason (except that i'm from germany), you said i was playing down history, whatever. ever got the idea that YOU are playing down? 'deliberately killing civilians is distasteful' - is this what you said about your engagement in Iraq? distasteful, indeed. i'd almost say it's "not very enjoyable" or even "not too nice".
i mean, if calling the "holocaust" a "genocide" instead of a "war crime" is playing down, what can this be? could i erase your bad impression if i'd admit that killing 4 million jews was "distasteful"? that this was "not our best idea"? would this sound better?
Jay R. Zay
New member
"Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labor of civilians in an occupied territory; murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war, taking and killing hostages: plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are also considered war crimes."
BUT ONLY IN WAR TIMES. OR WHY DO THEY CALL IT *WAR* CRIME? if this isn't limited to war times, look at this:
""Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder"
so if i kill my brother, this is a war crime? come on, you can't be that stupid, can you?
"26/10/ 1939 Forced labor decree issued for Polish jews aged 14 to 60 (WARCRIME)"
POLISH jews. you know when we could kill polish jews? AFTER invading poland. in WAR time. in a foreign country.
jesus, you are that stupid...
"7/03/1941 German Jews ordered into forced Labour (war crime)"
in WAR time. german jews were ordered into forced labour to support the german warfare. in case you didn't know. probably you didn't.
"03/09/1941 Gas Chambers at Auschwitz in Poland are used for the first time, using Zyklon B"
in WAR time. in POLAND.
you don't know a thing about WWII except for "we won", do you? perhaps that WWII started 1939 and that all examples for WAR crimes AFTER the start of the war doesn't demonstrate that there can be WAR crimes WITHOUT war.
show us some examples of german war crimes 1933-1938, smarty. show us that there can be war crimes without a war. this is going to get interesting.
BUT ONLY IN WAR TIMES. OR WHY DO THEY CALL IT *WAR* CRIME? if this isn't limited to war times, look at this:
""Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder"
so if i kill my brother, this is a war crime? come on, you can't be that stupid, can you?
"26/10/ 1939 Forced labor decree issued for Polish jews aged 14 to 60 (WARCRIME)"
POLISH jews. you know when we could kill polish jews? AFTER invading poland. in WAR time. in a foreign country.
jesus, you are that stupid...
"7/03/1941 German Jews ordered into forced Labour (war crime)"
in WAR time. german jews were ordered into forced labour to support the german warfare. in case you didn't know. probably you didn't.
"03/09/1941 Gas Chambers at Auschwitz in Poland are used for the first time, using Zyklon B"
in WAR time. in POLAND.
you don't know a thing about WWII except for "we won", do you? perhaps that WWII started 1939 and that all examples for WAR crimes AFTER the start of the war doesn't demonstrate that there can be WAR crimes WITHOUT war.
show us some examples of german war crimes 1933-1938, smarty. show us that there can be war crimes without a war. this is going to get interesting.
vaxer
Moderator Emeritus
The part of the Holocaust that didn't take place during the war, wasn't war crime and the part that used the war to speed up the jew extermination was! Now how long are we going to continu fighting over the definition of war crime!? This is not teaching anyone anything. This is about fighting over nothing.
_________________
As we over-dicuss the definition or "war crime" this thread is seriously parting from the definition of debate (and even more of healthy debate). If the tone and the insults don't go down, I will close this thread.
You're calling him a revisionist and a neo-nazi for saying that the act of killing jews (or anyone else) is not war crime when there is no war? What's you're technique of reading between the lines? Please make sure you've understood the post before making such assumptions.roundshort said:
_________________
As we over-dicuss the definition or "war crime" this thread is seriously parting from the definition of debate (and even more of healthy debate). If the tone and the insults don't go down, I will close this thread.
roundshort
Active member
J_Z
i used to teach 13 year olds and this was a concept they understood
so I will keep is simple (K.I.S.S.)
What the Germans did between the years of 1939 to 1945 were WAR CRIMES
I have listed the definition of war crime, and I have given you a few examples of those crimes.
How can this not be a war crime?
The who point here is you said that because America used cluster bombs we were guilty or war crimes, I came along and said, whoa, wait a minute here big guy, the use of cluster bombs are not war crimes, they aren't the greatest, but not war crimes so I then had to list what true war crimes were, ergo the what the Germans did to many people during WWII.
then you can back and claimed they were not war crimes, and you still say they are not, even after I have given you the definitions, and listed examples, what do I have to do short of coming to Germany and sitting you down with members of the IDF to show you that these are war crimes?
Do you have family in Swakopmund?
i used to teach 13 year olds and this was a concept they understood
so I will keep is simple (K.I.S.S.)
What the Germans did between the years of 1939 to 1945 were WAR CRIMES
I have listed the definition of war crime, and I have given you a few examples of those crimes.
How can this not be a war crime?
The who point here is you said that because America used cluster bombs we were guilty or war crimes, I came along and said, whoa, wait a minute here big guy, the use of cluster bombs are not war crimes, they aren't the greatest, but not war crimes so I then had to list what true war crimes were, ergo the what the Germans did to many people during WWII.
then you can back and claimed they were not war crimes, and you still say they are not, even after I have given you the definitions, and listed examples, what do I have to do short of coming to Germany and sitting you down with members of the IDF to show you that these are war crimes?
Do you have family in Swakopmund?
Jay R. Zay
New member
"What the Germans did between the years of 1939 to 1945 were WAR CRIMES"
surprise, surprise. now we know what this "war" in "war crimes" stands for, huh?
"How can this not be a war crime?"
'killing jews' in general is not a "war crime". as the holocaust you've named started BEFORE WWII and in OUR country, it can hardly be a war crime. episodes of the holocaust that took place DURING the war time can be war crimes. nevertheless the holocaust as such is a "genocide", not a "war crime". i hope you've FINALLY understood this now.
"I then had to list what true war crimes were, ergo the what the Germans did to many people during WWII. "
but you didn't. you've named the holocaust / gemany killing jews. and this is NOT a war crime as such. it is a "genocide". and parts of this "genocide" can be a "war crime", but only in WAR times. but you didn't mention this. you said using cluster bombs isn't a war crime but killing jews is a war crime. but while using cluster bombs *as such* at least (depending on the interpretation) might be a war crime as it perhaps (probably) does violate the Geneva Convention, killing jews *as such* is not a war crime at all.
it is really hard to make you understand and i seriously doubt that i've succeeded now.
surprise, surprise. now we know what this "war" in "war crimes" stands for, huh?
"How can this not be a war crime?"
'killing jews' in general is not a "war crime". as the holocaust you've named started BEFORE WWII and in OUR country, it can hardly be a war crime. episodes of the holocaust that took place DURING the war time can be war crimes. nevertheless the holocaust as such is a "genocide", not a "war crime". i hope you've FINALLY understood this now.
"I then had to list what true war crimes were, ergo the what the Germans did to many people during WWII. "
but you didn't. you've named the holocaust / gemany killing jews. and this is NOT a war crime as such. it is a "genocide". and parts of this "genocide" can be a "war crime", but only in WAR times. but you didn't mention this. you said using cluster bombs isn't a war crime but killing jews is a war crime. but while using cluster bombs *as such* at least (depending on the interpretation) might be a war crime as it perhaps (probably) does violate the Geneva Convention, killing jews *as such* is not a war crime at all.
it is really hard to make you understand and i seriously doubt that i've succeeded now.
Paden
Member
Maybe we should have a poll:
A war crime is:
A) A violation of international laws of war such as the Geneva Convention committed during wartime by a participating nation.
B) Forcing secondary school students to read dry historical narratives on World War I.
C) Serving prefabricated box lunches to convention attendees.
D) Driving at dangerously high speeds through a section of land that has been designated as a ?wilderness preservation area?.
E) I like chocolate milk.
A war crime is:
A) A violation of international laws of war such as the Geneva Convention committed during wartime by a participating nation.
B) Forcing secondary school students to read dry historical narratives on World War I.
C) Serving prefabricated box lunches to convention attendees.
D) Driving at dangerously high speeds through a section of land that has been designated as a ?wilderness preservation area?.
E) I like chocolate milk.
roundshort
Active member
J-Z, this has held my interest longer than most things, but I am tired of it. Please read the trial at Nuremberg and read where all the scum were convicted of war crimes, now, really I don't think you are a bad person, but young and full of nationisltic pride, I was also when I was your age, but go out travel the world see other people live with them and learn to relax, these threads have stopped being fun so I am going to go surf some others.
But really, stress kills people, relax, get your self a good heffe, and relax, keep up the jokes, makes you seem like less of an a-hole, really I but if you relaxed, you would have more fun,
But really, stress kills people, relax, get your self a good heffe, and relax, keep up the jokes, makes you seem like less of an a-hole, really I but if you relaxed, you would have more fun,
roundshort
Active member
Paden,
seriously dude, I have had some pretty bad box lunches, I might consider that a real option
J, see what Paden did was make a joke ( a very nice one might i add, take note and learn)
All milk makes gag, though
seriously dude, I have had some pretty bad box lunches, I might consider that a real option
J, see what Paden did was make a joke ( a very nice one might i add, take note and learn)
All milk makes gag, though
Jay R. Zay
New member
"really I don't think you are a bad person, but young and full of nationisltic pride"
damn it you stupid fella i've heard this one one time too many. i don't have the slightest nationalistic pride but when you repeatedly use the history of my country to insult me, i'm not going to take this. also i'm not going to take any lies about the history of my country, neither from you, nor from neo-nazis, nor from anybody else. and as i probably know much more about my country than you do, i have a right to point our your wrongful statements.
YOU are the one with nationalistic pride, this "pride" often tends to be "racism" or "nationalism", by the way. and i'm not allowing somebody like you who loves his country, loves to serve his country, defends all your country does and did - to call me "full of nationisltic pride".
i haven't joined the army because i don't want to fight for the idiots that are around me. at the moment, about 53% of our population are stupid enough to vote for our Christian Democatic Union party that doesn't have the slightest idea of how to solve our economical problems. about 30% (which is too much already) is against new elections. more than 50% are AGAINST the spelling reform that will make our language much easier and will eradicate logical and linguistical problems. 26% of my people read a daily tabloid that is filled with nothing but "sensational" lies and porn and believe they are "well informed" about the political situation of our country. this paper is called the "Bild Zeitung", it's news are like "We might all die in 2010!" "NASA attacks asteroid - the asteroid fires a poisonous gas cloud at earth" (referring to the recent 'deep impact' mission) and many more ridiculous headlines. disturbing enough, 9% of my people vote for the NPD, a right wing (nazi) party with the ideological background of the NSDAP and 20% of the people in east germany vote for the PDS, the descendant of the SED party that suppressed the people in communist east germany until 1989 - immediately after the berlin wall was destroyed, they voted for their own recent oppressors.
this is my country. does this sound like i'm proud of it? does this sound as if i liked my country? loved my country? my country is the place where i was born and it is full of idiots - like every country in the world. it is a place to be and it certainly is a pretty safe place to live in - hardly any "real" poverty and not a very high crime rate. it's okay, that's all. i don't like most of our german music, i don't like geman food, german customs, ... . i don't drive a german car, the music i listen to is 99% english music, i don't like most german movies, i like indiana jones although he is fighting germans and if our political situation would change or if i have the impression that i could lead a better life somewhere else, i'd simply leave.
but until this day, i am here. and you don't have the right to put my country down, to tell lies about it. this applies to all the countries in the world but as i am best informed about my own one (although i've seen many countries and i'm well informed), i'll care for what you say about germany. if you feel like insulting france, we have enough watchful french users that can get you back to the facts. this would have nothing to do with national pride, either. lies are lies and i'm not going to let you insult my country or myself just because you can't stand germany and like to float in your own glorious past.
it is truth that i'm after, not pride. pride is your branch.
EDIT: hmm sometimes i like chocolate milk. but a bad chocolate milk might be a war crime.
damn it you stupid fella i've heard this one one time too many. i don't have the slightest nationalistic pride but when you repeatedly use the history of my country to insult me, i'm not going to take this. also i'm not going to take any lies about the history of my country, neither from you, nor from neo-nazis, nor from anybody else. and as i probably know much more about my country than you do, i have a right to point our your wrongful statements.
YOU are the one with nationalistic pride, this "pride" often tends to be "racism" or "nationalism", by the way. and i'm not allowing somebody like you who loves his country, loves to serve his country, defends all your country does and did - to call me "full of nationisltic pride".
i haven't joined the army because i don't want to fight for the idiots that are around me. at the moment, about 53% of our population are stupid enough to vote for our Christian Democatic Union party that doesn't have the slightest idea of how to solve our economical problems. about 30% (which is too much already) is against new elections. more than 50% are AGAINST the spelling reform that will make our language much easier and will eradicate logical and linguistical problems. 26% of my people read a daily tabloid that is filled with nothing but "sensational" lies and porn and believe they are "well informed" about the political situation of our country. this paper is called the "Bild Zeitung", it's news are like "We might all die in 2010!" "NASA attacks asteroid - the asteroid fires a poisonous gas cloud at earth" (referring to the recent 'deep impact' mission) and many more ridiculous headlines. disturbing enough, 9% of my people vote for the NPD, a right wing (nazi) party with the ideological background of the NSDAP and 20% of the people in east germany vote for the PDS, the descendant of the SED party that suppressed the people in communist east germany until 1989 - immediately after the berlin wall was destroyed, they voted for their own recent oppressors.
this is my country. does this sound like i'm proud of it? does this sound as if i liked my country? loved my country? my country is the place where i was born and it is full of idiots - like every country in the world. it is a place to be and it certainly is a pretty safe place to live in - hardly any "real" poverty and not a very high crime rate. it's okay, that's all. i don't like most of our german music, i don't like geman food, german customs, ... . i don't drive a german car, the music i listen to is 99% english music, i don't like most german movies, i like indiana jones although he is fighting germans and if our political situation would change or if i have the impression that i could lead a better life somewhere else, i'd simply leave.
but until this day, i am here. and you don't have the right to put my country down, to tell lies about it. this applies to all the countries in the world but as i am best informed about my own one (although i've seen many countries and i'm well informed), i'll care for what you say about germany. if you feel like insulting france, we have enough watchful french users that can get you back to the facts. this would have nothing to do with national pride, either. lies are lies and i'm not going to let you insult my country or myself just because you can't stand germany and like to float in your own glorious past.
it is truth that i'm after, not pride. pride is your branch.
EDIT: hmm sometimes i like chocolate milk. but a bad chocolate milk might be a war crime.
Last edited:
Jay R. Zay
New member
perhaps we could if you'd stop posting although there is nothing for you to say.