The Dark Knight

[Pale Horse]

Conspiracy nut?

I prefer enlightened, but if pigeonholing me is more comfortable with you (since you are a newer member), I can accept that.

 

[Short Round]

The Dark Knight also imitates real life with The Patriot Act and wiretapping to spy on citizens and invading privacy for the sake of protection against terrorist and criminal acts. Like Lucious Fox says, "At what cost do we relinquish our privacy and freedom for protection?" I thought it was a great swipe at the fascist Bush administration.

HA! That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard! People are so worried about their "privacy" instead of death itself! Lucious is clearly in the wrong. Oh and I think Batman agrees with The Patriot Act because he was beating the Joker for information. And guess what, it WORKED!

 

[agentsands77]

HA! That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard! People are so worried about their "privacy" instead of death itself! Lucious is clearly in the wrong.

Lucius isn't in the wrong. He's in the right. The machine is unethical.

 

[Short Round]

Lucius isn't in the wrong. He's in the right. The machine is unethical.

So you think someone having their "privacy" and dying for it is better??? No.

 

[Zealot]

Well, I just saw the movie today and I have to say I'm a little dissapointed. The main reason because of it it's the duration of the movie. Waaaaay to long.
And I always thought that in this movie they will just introduce Two-Face so he can make his comeback in the third movie, but instead they squeezed him like this, it felt so forced. I mean, this was supposed to be a movie about Joker, and btw why the hell they don't kill him in the end?
For me, the movie went a little bit too fast. What was with all those hostages in that building? Who were they? And that machine which is tracking all the cell phone signals? And Scarecrow at the beginning? What was all that? IMO, Nolan didn't explained a lot of things, and focused too much on Harvey and too less on Wayne.

 

[agentsands77]

So you think someone having their "privacy" and dying for it is better???

Yes. "Those who give up liberty for the sake of security deserve neither."

 

[No Ticket]

Well, I just saw the movie today and I have to say I'm a little dissapointed. The main reason because of it it's the duration of the movie. Waaaaay to long.
And I always thought that in this movie they will just introduce Two-Face so he can make his comeback in the third movie, but instead they squeezed him like this, it felt so forced. I mean, this was supposed to be a movie about Joker, and btw why the hell they don't kill him in the end?
For me, the movie went a little bit too fast. What was with all those hostages in that building? Who were they? And that machine which is tracking all the cell phone signals? And Scarecrow at the beginning? What was all that? IMO, Nolan didn't explained a lot of things, and focused too much on Harvey and too less on Wayne.

It WAS about the Joker. The Joker creates Two-Face. That's what it's all about, he wanted to show that he could take someone like Harvey and make him bad. They don't kill Joker in the end because they did that in the last franchise and wanted to leave it open for him to return. The hostages don't matter, they are just people the Joker rounded up. The machine tracks the cell phone signals, yeah, it was introduced earlier in the movie. People who admire Batman and dress up like him were trying to stop the Scarecrow and got in the real Batman's way, that was the beginning... one of those poor guys gets abducted by the Joker later on.

I think he explained most of that pretty well if you were paying attention. I didn't feel like the movie was too long, I never wanted it to end! I was always like "Keep going this movie is great!" The one thing I agree with you on is they didn't really show much of Wayne/Batman at all. The focus was on The Joker most of the time or Harvey (which is really the same story intertwined).

 

[MaxPhactor23]

Quite easily. Just as easily as one could believe Ra's is dead (and Nolan said that, in his mind, yes, Ra's is deceased), and this is even more of a seemingly closed case than that was.

Ra’s Al Ghul was inside a collapsing and exploding monorail train. Two-face fell off a three story ledge. Don’t pretend it’s even remotely the same thing. It’s not. There was no casket. No visible wound. No blood. He’s never mentioned as being dead. He certainly doesn’t appear flat-out dead, just as easily could have been knocked out. Rumors has it that he’s even seen breathing. Batman takes the rap for Dent. It’s all very underground, why wouldn‘t they cover up his survival? They obviously don't want his actions getting out. Even the coin lands un-scarred side up, a possible subtle hint at his survival. This is even more closed then Ra‘s death?…Um…not even close. Use your head.

Two-Face doesn't have much of a story beyond what they showed, though. Especially since their portrayal of the character isn't really a villain, but a vigilante. What more is left for the character to do?

Bullcrap! Holding a gun to a kids head doesn’t make you a villain? Shooting Batman doesn’t make you a villain? What sadistic world are you living in? Okay…bad question. It is a sadistic world, but that's besides the point. The “Two-face was a vigilante” argument is absurd. Know what I’ve realized? People copy what they’re told. They never think for themselves. Because someone on the production wrote that he‘s more akin to a vigilante, thusly it’s recycled again and again. I wish people were intelligent enough to come up with their own arguments and assessments. Instead all you hear are comparisons to Heat and the Godfather (Pt. 2) …like these people came up with that themselves. Pssh! For as brilliant as Dark Knight was, it’s birthed this superficial bandwagon fan that’s completely obnoxious. They once briefly glance over a Batman comic in the local grocery store...and suddenly they think they're experts on the mythos. Not even close.

Batman was wearing armor, and his fall was broken on the way down. The same was not true of Two-Face.

And these films are based off of comic books. Or do you forget? As much as some people try to forget that, they’re comics nonetheless. Batman plummeted way farther with Rachel. They landed on a flipping car! They both somehow survived.

For Two-Face to be alive, Gordon would have had to create some elaborate conspiracy, getting him to a hospital and then locking him up behind closed doors and then faking his funeral. And I think that's unnecessarily convoluted and bordering on nonsensical. In fact, it's absolutely silly to believe Gordon could pull anything of the sort off. In my mind, Two-Face is 100% dead. The fanbase is just doing its typical bit, reading into things as much as possible.

They’d fake Dent’s death for Gothams morale. That’s an extremely elaborate conspiracy? Since when? Gordon’s already done it in Nolan’s continuity!

This isn’t something like Venom or Ra’s Al Ghul. This cannot be compared. Those two were blatantly killed and there was no logical argument otherwise. You could even see Eddie Brocks skeleton in the explosion at the closing of Spider-Man 3. Two-face’s fate is left extremely ambiguous. There is nothing mildly comparable. There is nothing extremely impossible to survive here. Even the cliché ending of comic book super villains is that mysterious fall from a cliff. How many times has that been done? How many times do they return? Hm? Most of the source material Nolan used for Two-face tended to derive from Jeff Loeb‘s work. Two-face was shot by the Joker in Loeb’s Dark Victory, fell off of a cliff, seemingly to his demise. Guess what happened? Ta da! He rose again! Hmm…

I'll bet you cash that Dent's alive. Serious cash! If I'm wrong that I'll fully confess to being wrong, but I'm almost sure he's in Arkham.

 

[Deckard]

Aaron Eckhart was asked if he would return in an interview recently. He said something along the lines of that would be something he'd like, to work with Nolan and the cast again.

I think he's dead plain and simple. Two-Face works best w/ the Joker and the Mafia, not Riddler. And I really think no matter what else happens, if there is a 3rd it will involve Riddler. Cmon Mister Reese? and the phone call... Anyone who thinks thats a coincidence is crazy. It was way more then a little "stop a cat" referance. It was making room for the Riddler to already exist and get right down to buissness mysteriously messing around with Batman.

Also take into account Bats, pretty much lost in this film.. He should be very depressed on top of the fact hes now a bad guy. Wayne Enterprises could force him to see a Pyschologist (Hugo Strange) and you could work something w/ Wayne's Identity as Batman getting out either through Strange or the Riddler. Even better tho, is you have Hugo Strange steal Batman's gear and pose as him only to be arrested by the cops, who thinks hes batman. Now Bruce doesn't have to worry about being on the run from the cops and he can deal w/ Riddler.

 

[agentsands77]

Ra’s Al Ghul was inside a collapsing and exploding monorail train. Two-face fell off a three story ledge. Don’t pretend it’s even remotely the same thing. It’s not.

You're right. It's not the same thing. With Ra's al Ghul, there was no body.

Bullcrap! Holding a gun to a kids head doesn’t make you a villain?

Bad use of terms on my part. Yes, he's a villain. But he's a vigilante with a serious desire for revenge. Not a career criminal like, say, Joker is. I can't see Eckhart's Two-Face becoming the criminal the character often is in the comics.

Batman plummeted way farther with Rachel. They landed on a flipping car! They both somehow survived.

Yeah. Because his cape slowed them down.

 

[Arnold Toht]

So you think someone having their "privacy" and dying for it is better??? No.

Yes. Like Lucius says "That's too much power for one man to have." Absolute power corrupts absolutely and God knows Bush has abused his power and does whatever the hell he wants without congress or the senate stopping him. He's lifted the off-shore drilling ban because it will be to his benefit, not ours, he's interrogated and detained suspected terrorists illegally, imorally and unethically, he's justified starting a war based on falsified information of weapons of mass destruction, etc, etc, etc... Bush is the biggest crook sitting in the oval office in the history of this country. He makes Nixon look like a schoolboy.

 

[Forbidden Eye]

He's lifted the off-shore drilling ban because it will be to his benefit, not ours,

Don't want to get in a fight in such an off-topic thread, but that's actually a GOOD thing. You liberals should be happy that you no longer have to whine about Bush "raising gas-prices".

But getting back to TDK, all these plot-points are way to generic to be considered inspired by current events.

 

[Snakes]

I could see Dent/Two face coming back in a 3rd movie. He did survive a pretty crazy car crash with no broken bones. I would say falling four stories is fairly survivable compared to that. I could accept it either way.

 

[Arnold Toht]

Come on, who are you trying to kid? We all know that Bush and his cronies stand to profit from enriching their oil resources. As soon as we, as a nation, demand that alternative energies replace petroleum fuels only then do we benefit. The greedy bastard even wants to open up environmentally protected lands. Haven't we raped this planet enough? Enough damage has already been done. Bush is just keeping us in a perpetual state of dependence on oil. In Utah they have natural gas pumps and people have converted their cars to burn environmentally clean natural gas. You can fill up your car for about $5 and get between 400-500 miles on a tank. There are alternatives but Bush has been unwilling to consider them.

And it all comes back to too much power corrupts, the point of the scene with Luscius Fox and why he was reluctant to help Batman spy for the sake of Gotham's security. There are always other alternatives instead of becoming a terrorist yourself to fight criminals. That is the very fine line between hero and vigilante that Batman is walking on.

 

[RelicHunter]

Come on, who are you trying to kid? We all know that Bush and his cronies stand to profit from enriching their oil resources. As soon as we, as a nation, demand that alternative energies replace petroleum fuels only then do we benefit. The greedy bastard even wants to open up environmentally protected lands. Haven't we raped this planet enough? Enough damage has already been done. Bush is just keeping us in a perpetual state of dependence on oil. In Utah they have natural gas pumps and people have converted their cars to burn environmentally clean natural gas. You can fill up your car for about $5 and get between 400-500 miles on a tank. There are alternatives but Bush has been unwilling to consider them.

And it all comes back to too much power corrupts, the point of the scene with Luscius Fox and why he was reluctant to help Batman spy for the sake of Gotham's security. There are always other alternatives instead of becoming a terrorist yourself to fight criminals. That is the very fine line between hero and vigilante that Batman is walking on.

You are Dead on! Way to go!

 

[sandiegojones]

Come on, who are you trying to kid? We all know that Bush and his cronies stand to profit from enriching their oil resources. As soon as we, as a nation, demand that alternative energies replace petroleum fuels only then do we benefit. The greedy bastard even wants to open up environmentally protected lands. Haven't we raped this planet enough? Enough damage has already been done. Bush is just keeping us in a perpetual state of dependence on oil. In Utah they have natural gas pumps and people have converted their cars to burn environmentally clean natural gas. You can fill up your car for about $5 and get between 400-500 miles on a tank. There are alternatives but Bush has been unwilling to consider them.

Your argument about Bush's ethical violations and "bending" the rules of law are correct, but if you think he oil problem is all Bush then you are naive! Clinton did NOTHING. The prior presidents did NOTHING all the way back to FDR. The oil companies and especially foreign oil control our policies because all of our politicians are for sale. The congress has more power to create policy than any president. They do nothing because they are given money from big oil. It's been this way for almost 100 years. The problem is not just cars, but also trucks, fleet vehicles, public transportation, boats and airplanes. Do you know how much it would cost to replace a fleet of planes for one airline? How about all of the airlines? How about the entire military? What about all of the small business owners that own gas stations (most of which are minorities and are the democrats base)? Are we gonna put them out of business. Of course not, always need to get that vote! It's not something that can be changed overnight. There's a domino effect on the economy and the foundation of our civilization. It likely can't even be done in 25-50 years. Just because a few people in Utah do it doesn't mean it'll work in larger states like NY and CA. China pollutes far more than we do. What will we do about them? We cannot dictate what others do.

I work in finance and used to live in DC. I saw it all the time first hand. Do you think it's a coincidence that as soon as there was increased talk about drilling here at home that the price of oil dropped several dollars per day on the market. OPEC doesn't want us to be self reliant because they lose their power over us. We're making them rich and they pretty much are holding us hostage! They figure they can lower oil enough to make us happy that oil went from $4 per gallon to $3.50, even though we should be paying $2!

Did you know Henry Ford invented an electric car back in the early 1900's? He later realized that the money was in the combustible engine and oil, not the car itself. It's like video game machines. The money isn't in the system but all the games and accessories.

The biggest problem though is the people! We let it happen and we b!tch, but we really do nothing to change it. People drive Hummers and then talk about the environment and high gas prices. How hypocritical! If we made sacrifices like my grandparents generation rather than being selfish like my parents generation we could change things. We need to make educated votes rather than sticking to party lines and electing douchebags (both democrats like Clinton and republicans like Bush)!

Sorry to be off topic but think a line from Batman Begins sums it up best:

"What chance do we have when good the people do nothing!"

 

[Forbidden Eye]

And it all comes back to too much power corrupts, the point of the scene with Luscius Fox and why he was reluctant to help Batman spy for the sake of Gotham's security. There are always other alternatives instead of becoming a terrorist yourself to fight criminals. That is the very fine line between hero and vigilante that Batman is walking on.

So based on those accountants, you're saying George W. Bush is a hero on the leagues of Batman!?! As he risks his reputation and his life just to make sure his land can have proper security and uses necessary activities such as spying on people to save lives, because if he didn't, all those people would've died.

Like I said before, I think you're reading waaay too much into TDK. Such political analogies are so generic they are really on the same leagues of people saying Nostradamus predicted WWII and 9/11 and pretty much every human event in history. I can say with absolute certainty there is no political agenda in TDK. If you want to believe such things and believe every detail has a hidden a political agenda, then go ahead if that's what really increases your enjoyment value for this film, but know, you have what I consider a disease, where you're so obsessed with a certain political side or point-of-view that you look for any messages behind any and everything.

 

[muttjones]

Seeing TDK again tomorrow!!!!!!!!

first i saw it at IMAX and this time i'm seeing it at a small cinema nearby my house (IMAX tickets dont grow on trees! )

 

[Arnold Toht]

Oh, we've had over 40 years to come up with alternative energies but politicians and corporations have remained reluctant to do so. I refer you to the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car" in which GM deliberately engineered their electric hybrid to fail in the consumer market when consumers' were guzzling up SUV's and cheaper oil.

As for the people and their vote, the numbers are always fudged. Look how screwed up the electoral college is just from the recent democratic campaigns and then there is the recount fiasco in Florida when Kerry lost by a margin to Bush in the last election. I firmly believe the ballots were stuffed by the Republicans to keep Bush in power during the Iraq war. Democracy in this country is a sham and so are its politics.

But I digress, the point was to show how the political undertones in The Dark Knight parallel real-world politics and corruption. That is why Batman has endured as a pop-culture icon that stands as a protector of the citizens against criminals and political corruption... he can take it because he's The Dark Knight.

 

[sandiegojones]

As for the people and their vote, the numbers are always fudged. Look how screwed up the electoral college is just from the recent democratic campaigns and then there is the recount fiasco in Florida when Kerry lost by a margin to Bush in the last election. I firmly believe the ballots were stuffed by the Republicans to keep Bush in power during the Iraq war. Democracy in this country is a sham and so are its politics.

But I digress, the point was to show how the political undertones in The Dark Knight parallel real-world politics and corruption. That is why Batman has endured as a pop-culture icon that stands as a protector of the citizens against criminals and political corruption... he can take it because he's The Dark Knight.

Republics did not invent the electoral college and they are not the only corrupt politicians. Corruption is equal whether you want to believe that or not.

I think TDK shows that. You're never sure who you can trust in the film (with the exception of Alfred and Lucius).