The Marion/Belloq Connection

[Deadlock]

Simple question: Do you think Belloq and Marion knew each other prior to the Tanis dig in Raiders?

I think an affirmative answer here would open up a lot of very interesting possibilities in the mysterious and influential Indy/Marion backstory.

Disclaimer: I haven't read the Raiders novelization, or any of the other Indy novels. I'm of the "Sola Cinema" camp, so I'm disinclined to put a lot of stock in anything but the film.

 

[Gear]

Disclaimer: I haven't read the Raiders novelization, or any of the other Indy novels. I'm of the "Sola Cinema" camp, so I'm disinclined to put a lot of stock in anything but the film.

Yeah, I would fall into that catagory also. The Novels and "The Young Indiana Jones Cronicles" had their good moments but I dont necessarily take any of it for "absolute Indy truth".

Anyway, good question. I would be inclined to believe that he probebly did; knowing that he knew Indiana from past events.

 

[Ska]

Maybe Marion knew OF him rather than personally knowing him.

But that would be an interesting side story.

 

[herr gruber]

Does anybody know what Belloq says to Marion just before she and Indy are sealed in the well? "It was not to be, SHIRLEY?" That's what I have heard ever since I first saw the movie.

(If he's calling her Shirley, he really didn't know her before)

 

[NileQT87]

he says "chérie" not "shirley"... he's french.

lol.

 

[Deadlock]

Does anybody know what Belloq says to Marion just before she and Indy are sealed in the well? "It was not to be, SHIRLEY?" That's what I have heard ever since I first saw the movie.

(If he's calling her Shirley, he really didn't know her before)

ENH! Wrong answer Hans. Do you wanna go for double jeopardy where the scores can really change?

(Sorry. I was unable to resist, Herr Gruber. )

 

[herr gruber]

I still say he's calling her Shirley. They covered up with the happy coincidence that Belloq is French!

Spielberg: Damn. You called her Shirley, Paul.
Freeman: Blast. My wifes name. Sorry.
Spielberg: It's ok. People will presume you said cherie.

Time to get my ear wax sorted out.

 

[Gear]

The Raiders of the Lost Ark conspiracies...

Ya know, its rumored that they actualy found the ark and used it as itself in the film. Then a band of Nazis came and tried to steal it. Harrison Ford cracked out his whip and Webly and went to 'em. The United States government then intervened and it now sits untouched in a secret warehouse..... Yes. It was more than just a movie...

Its also rumored that Jesus is seen in one of the frames; he's sitting in Indys class room staring dreamily at Dr. Jones.

 

[Ska]

That was Jesus with the "Love You" eyes?

 

[Deadlock]

So, anyway...

In Raiders, I think that there's a "love triangle" between Indy, Belloq, and the Ark, which I think is mirrored/complimented by Marion's involvement in the story. (Here is a great thread with more thoughts on that.)

I think it plausible or appropriate that the long-standing tug of war between Indy and Belloq over precious things started with Marion, since Raiders has it ending with Marion.

Point of interest: Paul Freeman is actually a few months YOUNGER than Ford. If we assume this translates into the Indy universe (and why not? Raiders was shot in 1980 and is set in 1936. Harrison Ford was born in 1943 and Indy is supposed to be born in 1899. That would mean that in Raiders, we have a 37 year-old playing a 37 year-old.), these guys are the same age.

 

[Paden]

I'm speaking strictly in terms of theory here, but in my mind part of the answer might lie in how long Indy and Belloq have known one another. If I've inferred correctly from Raiders, Indy and Marion's relationship dissolved shortly before Indiana's association with Abner Ravenwood ended, which would mean that they parted ways just prior to Indiana completing his graduate degree or a few years thereafter. (Although I'm not certain there's anything from the films to establish this, I've always thought that Indy assisted Abner on his quests a few years after Indy obtained his doctorate.) My presumption from both Belloq and Indy's appearance is that Belloq is older than Jones, so in all likelihood, Belloq was already active in the field by the time Jones was able to pursue archaeological field work. I guess what I'm driving at is that if you mingle those timelines together just so, it could be that Marion met Belloq, or became aware of him, in the midst of an expedition her father and Indy collaborated on. It's entirely possible that Belloq was a competitor of Abner's, or even a partner, at some point.

Another idea that comes to mind is that, even if the two had not met previously, Ravenwood's name probably carried a lot of weight, especially amongst that caste of archaeologists like Jones and Belloq that were willing to, shall we say, cut a few corners in their pursuit of rare antiquities. I think it would be reasonable to assume that Belloq knew who Abner was, even if he had not met the man personally. So, he may have been intrigued by Marion in part because he knew who her father was, and could probably guess at some of the experiences she had.

 

[Deadlock]

I'm going to wait to cite the actual "tent scene" until after I can rewatch it later. (Since the scene was adlibbed by Freeman and Allen, it's not in any of the screenplays I have.)

But there's something about the way that scene plays out that says "familiarity" to me. (Beyond "I knew your dad.")

 

[Paden]

I'll try to take a look at it too. It's been a while since I've watched Raiders, so my recollection is a little fuzzy. Going strictly from memory, I would say that one aspect that works in favor of a prior meeting is the fact that Belloq does grant Marion more freedom than an ordinary prisoner. He seems to invest more trust in her than he would another female that he found attractive, but was unknown to him.

Speaking of watching Raiders, I've had it in my mind to watch it with my son, who's close to the age I was when I first saw the film, so that he'll be familiar with all things Jones prior to the opening of KOTCS.

 

[Ska]

The scene when Sallah first tells Indy that Belloq (Bellosh as pronounced by Sallah) is looking for Tanis...is Marion with them? What's her reaction then?

I'll have to watch that scene again. I've been wanting to pop Raiders in anyways.

 

[Niteshade007]

The scene when Sallah first tells Indy that Belloq (Bellosh as pronounced by Sallah) is looking for Tanis...is Marion with them? What's her reaction then?

She's present, I believe, but not at the table discussing the ark with them. I believe after that scene, the monkey shows up, does he not?

I never gathered that there was any past relationship between her and Belloq, I think had there been, it would have been made more clear to the audience. It's an interesting thought, but I don't find that there is enough evidence in the film to suggest it.

However, it is entirely possible that they knew of each other. Marion is, after all, the daughter of an archaeologist and the former flame of one of the world's most famous. It's entirely possible that Belloq knew of her and that she knew of him. There is something though in her line at the bar that makes me thing she would not have payed much attention to the archaeological world. When she says that Abner dragged her around, "looking for his bits of junk," I really feel that she feels alienated from this world that Indy, Belloq, and Abner live in. I do feel though that Belloq knew of her. Belloq seems like the type of character that would want to know everything there was to know about his enemy, so he can sniff out any weakness. Perhaps that's why he gives Marion so much freedom in the tent scene. It may just be to make her closer to him and further from Jones. Belloq might even have been encouraged to act this way from the beginning of the scene, when she says "I have no loyalty to Jones. He's brought me nothing but trouble."

 

[IndyCon]

No, I don't think Marion and Belloq new each other before Raiders.

 

[Deadlock]

I rewatched the "tent" scene.

From the dialogue, Marion seems to differentiate between Belloq and the Nazis.

"What kind of people are these friends of yours?"

She uses his first name, "René". (I believe that the only other person to do so in the film is Indy... and I think that Marion says it first.) Now, could Marion have heard of him from Indy? Sure. (Just not on Sallah's roof, she leaves with the kids/monkey before Indy and Sallah's discussion.) Also, Indy refers to him as "Belloq" with only one exception, so it seems like if Marion knew him from Indy mentioning him, she'd know him as "Belloq". And while we could imagine some sort of introduction happening earlier (Hello, I'm Rene Belloq, and I'll be your captor this evening )... it seems to me that the tent scene was the first time that Marion and Belloq had run into each other at Tanis. The dialogue seems to indicate that until the tent scene, Marion had been under the Nazi's supervision, not Belloq's.

"I must apologize for their treatment of you."

Finally, there's something about Marion's look in that scene. Yes, there's some coyness. There's something else... to me it looks like an old attraction. In terms of expert confirmation of that... I can only cite my wife (a certified Jane Austen Maniac) as agreeing with me. But I'm sure there are any number of interpretations.

So, again, nothing conclusive... but interesting speculation nonetheless.

 

[Pale Horse]

I rewatched the "tent" scene.

From the dialogue, Marion seems to differentiate between Belloq and the Nazis.

"What kind of people are these friends of yours?"

She uses his first name, "René". (I believe that the only other person to do so in the film is Indy... and I think that Marion says it first.) Now, could Marion have heard of him from Indy? Sure. (Just not on Sallah's roof, she leaves with the kids/monkey before Indy and Sallah's discussion.) Also, Indy refers to him as "Belloq" with only one exception, so it seems like if Marion knew him from Indy mentioning him, she'd know him as "Belloq". And while we could imagine some sort of introduction happening earlier (Hello, I'm Rene Belloq, and I'll be your captor this evening )... it seems to me that the tent scene was the first time that Marion and Belloq had run into each other at Tanis. The dialogue seems to indicate that until the tent scene, Marion had been under the Nazi's supervision, not Belloq's.

"I must apologize for their treatment of you."

Finally, there's something about Marion's look in that scene. Yes, there's some coyness. There's something else... to me it looks like an old attraction. In terms of expert confirmation of that... I can only cite my wife (a certified Jane Austen Maniac) as agreeing with me. But I'm sure there are any number of interpretations.

So, again, nothing conclusive... but interesting speculation nonetheless.

Dude, my baby has started crawling this week. Now I have to go back and watch this too....eeeeesh

(~mutters under his breath something about telling the wifey it's a homework assignment,

and it has a due date).

 

[Pale Horse]

(sorry for the apparent double post) a mod should fix it wink

Author of 'Hostage/Terrorist, Terrorist/Hostage, a Study in Duality.' Dr. Hasseldorf, what can we expect in the next few hours?

Well, Gail, by this time the hostages and their captors should be entering the early stages of the Helsinki Syndrome. Basically, it's when the hostages and the terrorists go through a sort of psychological transference and projection of dependency in what can only be described as a strange sort of trust and bond that develops...We've had situations where hostages have embraced their captors after their release and in one case even corresponded with them in prison.

Whoops, wrong thread.

But seriously, thinking about it here today whilst I should be working, I started to think about the relationship demonstrated between these two. I noticed this Helsinki Syndrome from the conversation expressed in this picture:

Obviously, Indy knew exactly the type of exchange Marion was engaged in, after all he is an expert in nocturnal mating customs. That level of commitment can only come from a child who doesn't know what they are doing, because they are in love, a professional...ahem, or someone who has been brainwashed by her captors?

Social actions amount to capital which can be used for power in various fields of social interaction. This power depends on violently preventing others from accessing capital and it is the opposite to a non-violent social action, where the capitals are used to increase the capital possessed by others. In the Marxist class theory, capital is essential for self-realization. It has been proposed that traditions maintain the class society and forms of capitalist violence. In a hostage situation, these traditions are by-passed in a way which may allow an unforeseen action from a lower class person to gain capital. As personal interests are in conflict with the traditional culture, this lapse of tradition provides to the victims an independent forum where they interpret the actions of the abductor outside traditional norms and relate to the abductor in a compassionate way. This may lead to the need of assuring that the powerfully felt struggle for social equality of the abductor succeeds. This need may be accompanied by a sense of security, which exists between a loyal person and the abductor.

The other interesting facet to all of this is Belloq's relationship with Indy, demonstrated so concisely here:

Knowing that the two men knew each other so well here, is it possible Belloq's entire intent in the Tent scene (under the cover of a tent) was to seduce Marion with his French demeanor? Neither alcoholic was entirely drunk. I only ask that based on how the Frenchman reacts here:

Thoughts?

 

[WillKill4Food]

That was Jesus with the "Love You" eyes?

No, it was Mary Magdalene.

Anyway, I don't think that Bellosh and Shirley knew each other previous to Raiders bc Rene seems to only want to seduce her and Shirley seems only to want to get out of there. She does this by making him get drunk and convincing him that she is susceptible to his seduction.