Tweaking Raiders to Make it Truly 100% Perfect

[The Lone Raider]

Yeah. You read that right.

Raiders is a fantastic film, but no film is perfect, and if we're gonna have a thread devoted to tweaking things about Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, we're gonna have a thread devoted to tweaking things in the other four movies, too. And we're gonna start with the film that seemingly no one here would think to touch. Will we have a shorter list for Raiders than we will for Kingdom? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it's not worth discussing. I'll start us off, of course. For the sake of brevity, in this post I will only include one thing I'd change. There are other aspects I'll bring up later, though, if this thread gets going and no one else has mentioned them. So without further adieu...

Marion's implied age, or really just that whole exchange of dialogue when she and Indy first reunite at the bar. The dialogue is vague enough that it could be interpreted many ways, and not in a good way. In a very questionable way, actually. Let's review:

"I was a child! I was in love! It was wrong and you knew it!"
"You knew what you were doing..."
"Now I do! This is my place. Get out!"

Like c'mon, everyone. Let's not pretend that it doesn't sound a bit like statutory rape. It may not have been what George, Spielberg, and Kasdan had in mind (not too far off, though), but that's certainly what it sounds like. So tweak that dialogue just a bit to make it sound like they were closer in age and both legal for each other. And then also provide a little more than just "it was wrong and you knew it" because that could mean a lot of things. Make it a little more obvious that Indy just played with her emotions and handled things poorly...rather than abused her. And also change "You knew what you were doing" to something more like "Yeah, well, you knew it wasn't gonna work, but you pushed for it anyways."

 

[Z dweller]

And the award for most pointless thread of the year goes to...

Joking apart, the only thing I'd change is add the missing floor trap in the temple, which featured in the script but not in the movie.
As it is, Indy and Satipo using the whip to swing over the gap feels a bit like a non sequitur (at least the millionth time you watch it ).

 

[Kukulcan]

Neither showing the supernatural instead of keeping it a mystery nor killing the main villains by a Deus ex Machina ever sounded like a good idea to me. That‘s why the finale always felt anticlimatic.

 

[emtiem]

I think, yeah, I'd ditch the Marion child stuff; my biggest bugbear is that I'd just add a line about not looking at the Ark to perhaps the FBI briefing scene or somewhere else in the film. I just feel like it should have been set up for such a pivotal moment.

Also, maybe a bit of an odd one, I would have minded if we'd seen rather than have been told about the Nazis' ersatz headpiece to the Staff of Ra. It's probably not essential but it might have just sold that moment a bit more to actually see it. Maybe not though.

 

[michael]

ok fine. i found something i would tweak.

i would have cut the scene where Toht sticks his hand in the snow. A bit too comical and goofy. Seeing him burn his hand is enough to know that he has the imprint on him and two he doesn't die in the shoot out. Maybe just show him run outside and that's all we need.

It took all i had to come up with this. I need to re-charge.

 

[The Lone Raider]

Neither showing the supernatural instead of keeping it a mystery nor killing the main villains by a Deus ex Machina ever sounded like a good idea to me. That‘s why the finale always felt anticlimatic.

I'd have to disagree. I feel like the whole movie was building up to the supernatural reveal. For the entire movie, everyone is wondering whether the Ark actually has any power or if it's merely "an artifact of incredible historical significance." The supernatural reveal is a perfectly appropriate climax for the film.

ok fine. i found something i would tweak.

i would have cut the scene where Toht sticks his hand in the snow. A bit too comical and goofy. Seeing him burn his hand is enough to know that he has the imprint on him and two he doesn't die in the shoot out. Maybe just show him run outside and that's all we need.

It took all i had to come up with this. I need to re-charge.

For me, Raiders, more than the rest, suffers from not having enough lighthearted, goofy, comical moments, so I actually wouldn't change this personally, but I can understand where you're coming from.

 

[PilotJohnGrant]

I saw someone ages ago, I can't remember when/where, say that Marion should have been the one to say to not look at the Ark - the reasoning was that Marion had spent all the time with her Father as he was looking for the Ark it made sense that she'd have picked up some stuff along the way.

IDK if I would go that far as Indy is the one we're following along the trail to the Ark but maybe I'd have liked to see more of Marion's perspective in the film. This is her father's life's work after all, maybe just a line or two on her relationship to this artifact her father spent all those years looking for.

Although maybe it'd just be overexplaining something that doesn't need addressing, her opinion of it all during the bar scene is probably enough, I'm just spitballing here.

 

[emtiem]

I think I’d disagree with the idea that Marion should have made the ‘close your eyes’ warning in terms of the film is in part Indy’s journey to not just valuing these items in monetary or trophy terms but realising the Ark’s true power. His saying to close their eyes shows that he now knows it is something more than just a valuable relic.
I just wish it was information we’d been given before, and perhaps if Indy had at first sort of handwaved it away as mumbo jumbo that would have made it hit harder.

I think it’s a fair point that Marion is kept oddly distant from the Ark itself in the film given her father’s long history with it and keeping the medallion so close all these years. I don’t think she even has any dialogue referring to the Ark in the whole film does she? The ‘goddamn partner’ thing suggests she’s just there to get paid for finding the Ark (even though I’m not sure Indy has even said that he needs the medallion to find it at that point) but beyond that it’s unclear what her opinion of it is or indeed why she’s even there perhaps. Sallah actually gets to talk about it more.

 

[NickTurner]

i would have cut the scene where Toht sticks his hand in the snow.

You know, thinking about that, it might have been the whole reason the impression of the medallion was preserved so well!

 

[michael]

You know, thinking about that, it might have been the whole reason the impression of the medallion was preserved so well!

I didn't even think about this!!!! Good catch!!

And even more incredible if Spielberg, Lucas and Kasdan understood this

 

[michael]

I think I’d disagree with the idea that Marion should have made the ‘close your eyes’

Eyes related... there's a moment in Crystal Skull when Marion says to Indy ....'Indy...the eyes"

My head canon is that the opening of the ark was always something they talked about in their personal relationship and what they 'missed out on'.

 

[The Lone Raider]

I think I’d disagree with the idea that Marion should have made the ‘close your eyes’ warning in terms of the film is in part Indy’s journey to not just valuing these items in monetary or trophy terms but realising the Ark’s true power. His saying to close their eyes shows that he now knows it is something more than just a valuable relic.
I just wish it was information we’d been given before, and perhaps if Indy had at first sort of handwaved it away as mumbo jumbo that would have made it hit harder.

You know, I do think that it could have worked with Marion being the one to insist that Indy close his eyes. Indy still has to make the conscious decision to believe her and do as she says, demonstrating that he believes in the power of the Ark after all.

So it would go something like this: Earlier in the film, Marion mentions something about the enemies of the Jews being destroyed by God's power for having not turned their gaze from the Ark. Then, at the climax, right as Belloq begins the ritual, she whispers to Indy to get ready to close his eyes. Indy scoffs and says something like, "Don't be ridiculous, Marion. It's just a gilded wooden box." She gets angry with him and demands him to close his eyes, but he refuses. The Nazis open the lid, and Marion closes her eyes. Indy, on the other hand, continues to look, and then he flashes that same skeptical smirk when Dietrich scoops out the sand from the stone tablets. Then the supernatural stuff starts to happen, and we see Indy's smirk fade and become replaced with shock and dread. Finally, swallowing his pride, he closes his eyes.

Still works for his character arc while also making Marion more important and giving her more to do.

I think it’s a fair point that Marion is kept oddly distant from the Ark itself in the film given her father’s long history with it and keeping the medallion so close all these years. I don’t think she even has any dialogue referring to the Ark in the whole film does she? The ‘goddamn partner’ thing suggests she’s just there to get paid for finding the Ark (even though I’m not sure Indy has even said that he needs the medallion to find it at that point) but beyond that it’s unclear what her opinion of it is or indeed why she’s even there perhaps. Sallah actually gets to talk about it more.

Yeah the only reason she's really on the adventure is because her bar burned down, along with her five thousand dollars, and she has nowhere else to go at that point but with Indy on his quest to find the Ark.

 

[Randy_Flagg]

my biggest bugbear is that I'd just add a line about not looking at the Ark to perhaps the FBI briefing scene or somewhere else in the film. I just feel like it should have been set up for such a pivotal moment.

It was set up with the girl who has "I love you" written on her eyelids. Indy was obviously thinking of her when the ark was opened, remembering how that girl had closed her eyes to reveal the message, and understanding that it was a message from god, telling him how to survive the ark.

Okay, just kidding. I actually agree with you.
I don't think Indy should have known for sure that he needed to close his eyes (it would be too easy if somebody flat out told him earlier in the film), but he should have come across a cryptic clue earlier in the film, one that he couldn't quite make sense of, and then he pieces it together just in time. If we heard him saying the clue to himself as he's tied up, puzzling it out in his mind, and then understanding it at the last moment, it would make the scene more rewarding.

 

[fedoraboy]

Mine would be TINY little things, like having Indy spin the right way when Pat Roach clobbers him, and have Marion not give her hiding place away so blatantly when the monkey's on top of her basket. But I honestly can't think of anything substantial I want to tweak.

 

[FordFan]

"I was a child! I was in love! It was wrong and you knew it!"
"You knew what you were doing..."
"Now I do! This is my place. Get out!"

Like c'mon, everyone. Let's not pretend that it doesn't sound a bit like statutory rape. It may not have been what George, Spielberg, and Kasdan had in mind (not too far off, though),

The three of them were going to make it even more suggestive, but walked it back to a more vague place, which is where it works. Maybe it flies in the face of the later altruistic incarnation of Indy ("It belongs in a museum!"), but I don't think it makes the film better to take it out.

Here's Karen Allen's interpretation...
"We don’t even know what it is. I mean, they could have kissed a few times, and she was just completely bowled over, and he could have just not wanted to get involved with someone so young. And maybe my father would have been furious at him. I mean, what’s great about it is we don’t know what the circumstances are. So she obviously cared deeply for him. He may have cared for her, too. But, in the end, decided it was a dangerous situation and he didn’t want to be involved. I mean, I guess, when something is as vague as that, you can color it any way you want to color it. I’ve tended to color it, sort of, that it was quite innocent. When she says, ‘It was wrong and you knew it.’ I mean, I think maybe he led her on in some way. But when she says she was a child, I think she meant she was 16. Something like that. I don’t think of him as a pedophile. That’s the direction some of these people are going.”

 

[The Lone Raider]

I'd also make Marion half Asian or Middle-Eastern. So Abner met a woman while on his travels around the world searching for the Ark and they had a kid together.

We've discussed it in other threads, but I'll say it again. It's strange that all of Indy's on-screen romances are with white women, two of which are American, when he's on the other side of the globe. Nothing wrong with a little more ethnic diversity. In fact, if anything, it makes the romantic relationships more interesting and makes Indy a more interesting character. Elsa is perfectly appropriate, but Marion and Willie could be rewritten to have a different ethnic background while still preserving their integral personality traits, the same general plot, etc.

The three of them were going to make it even more suggestive, but walked it back to a more vague place, which is where it works. Maybe it flies in the face of the later altruistic incarnation of Indy ("It belongs in a museum!"), but I don't think it makes the film better to take it out.

Here's Karen Allen's interpretation...
"We don’t even know what it is. I mean, they could have kissed a few times, and she was just completely bowled over, and he could have just not wanted to get involved with someone so young. And maybe my father would have been furious at him. I mean, what’s great about it is we don’t know what the circumstances are. So she obviously cared deeply for him. He may have cared for her, too. But, in the end, decided it was a dangerous situation and he didn’t want to be involved. I mean, I guess, when something is as vague as that, you can color it any way you want to color it. I’ve tended to color it, sort of, that it was quite innocent. When she says, ‘It was wrong and you knew it.’ I mean, I think maybe he led her on in some way. But when she says she was a child, I think she meant she was 16. Something like that. I don’t think of him as a pedophile. That’s the direction some of these people are going.”

See and I'm well aware of Karen Allen's interpretation and the way Steven pushed back against George's original "let's make her 12 while he's 25" idea to make it more palatable. That doesn't make the resulting dialogue any less problematic. It needed to be phrased better.

 

[FordFan]

See and I'm well aware of Karen Allen's interpretation and the way Steven pushed back against George's original "let's make her 12 while he's 25" idea to make it more palatable. That doesn't make the resulting dialogue any less problematic. It needed to be phrased better.

See, I disagree. There's a reason they haven't spoken in 10 years. It may sound shady, but that's because we don't have all the facts. There are so many overhanded ways that films handle exposition. I respect them for keeping it ambiguous.

And I think we're looking at a perfect film with 2024 glasses. The film being called "perfect" holds pretty firm if the biggest takeaway we have is "Maybe Marion didn't need to be white".

 

[The Lone Raider]

Dude, come on...

No. Film. Is. "Perfect."

And George's age gap idea was problematic even back in the late 70s when they were throwing around ideas. You can see it in the transcript that Steven was uncomfortable with it and pushed to narrow the gap (and I think Lawrence did too, although I can't remember from the transcript). So looking at the dialogue with [insert year] glasses doesn't really change the fact that it's one of the more problematic pieces of dialogue in the whole series. You can keep their history vague without making it sound like there was a possibility of statutory rape or something close to it. It was always a dumb idea on George's part to suggest making Marion a minor in the first place.

Also, just because Raiders and Temple were products of their time doesn't change the fact that a little more ethnic diversity in Indy's romances would have improved the films. Heck, it was the 80s, not the 50s. These films were supposed to be a modernized version of 1930s pulp adventures, which all had white women as love interests. A modernized version should aim to be more ethnically diverse and culturally sensitive than the original adventures from the 1930s when racism was much more acceptable and commonplace. That is one of the shortcomings of this series, though I love these movies to death.

 

[FordFan]

A short list of what I believe to be perfect films:

The Godfather
Jaws
Raiders
Back to the Future
Silence of the Lambs
Schindler's List
Toy Story
The Matrix

We know what George suggested when they were spitballing the story, and it's different from what we ended up with. I'm judging the final product.

And it's a movie, not the census.

 

[emtiem]

It was set up with the girl who has "I love you" written on her eyelids. Indy was obviously thinking of her when the ark was opened, remembering how that girl had closed her eyes to reveal the message, and understanding that it was a message from god, telling him how to survive the ark.

I don't think Indy should have known for sure that he needed to close his eyes (it would be too easy if somebody flat out told him earlier in the film), but he should have come across a cryptic clue earlier in the film, one that he couldn't quite make sense of, and then he pieces it together just in time. If we heard him saying the clue to himself as he's tied up, puzzling it out in his mind, and then understanding it at the last moment, it would make the scene more rewarding.

I like that, yeah; although that does make it perhaps slightly more of a brainteaser, like the Grail tasks, whereas I think what's intended in Raiders is more for Indy to become more of a believer in the power of the Ark at that moment, to show humility before the thing he was chasing as a prize.
I like Lone Raider's idea of Marion telling him too, I think that's very good.

I'd also make Marion half Asian or Middle-Eastern. So Abner met a woman while on his travels around the world searching for the Ark and they had a kid together.

We've discussed it in other threads, but I'll say it again. It's strange that all of Indy's on-screen romances are with white women, two of which are American, when he's on the other side of the globe. Nothing wrong with a little more ethnic diversity. In fact, if anything, it makes the romantic relationships more interesting and makes Indy a more interesting character. Elsa is perfectly appropriate, but Marion and Willie could be rewritten to have a different ethnic background while still preserving their integral personality traits, the same general plot, etc.

I like this, and I think you're right about his leading ladies (although I guess there's only two of them, and Elsa isn't American as you say), but I also wonder if it does do a bit of shorthand in Marion's case, in that they've presumably had their previous relationship in the US etc.
I think she nearly had to be British as the UK film council specified a certain amount of cast had to be from the UK in order to get the film subsidies for shooting in Britain, eventually they sorted it out though (although I wonder if that's why Denholm Elliott, Paul Freeman, John Rhys Davies etc. are there).