Was the SS-Standartenführer in TLC (Vogel) sympathetic to feminism?

[Montana Smith]

And the rest is just absurd.

I don't think there was anything ambiguous about his sexuality, considering his hysterical, effeminate high-pitched screams, his preference for firmly attaching himself behind Jones Jr. and his lustful slaps of Jones Sr. with his leather glove as part of sadistic foreplay.

Ah, that look of love...

The sadness as his love drives away...

And seeing in the window a reflection of his love coming up behind him...

When Vogel was awarded the SA Sports Badge, I have a feeling he actually was a member of the SA. Likely also very close to Ernst Röhm. Must have hopped out of bed pretty quickly during the Night of the Long Knives. Himmler was fond of promoting men whom he could blackmail, and Vogel eventually became a Standartenführer of those very executioners of 30th June 1934.

 

[WilliamBoyd8]

Vogel missed one Nazi stereotype.

He doesn't play classical music before or after doing something bad.

 

[Attila the Professor]

Vogel missed one Nazi stereotype.

He doesn't play classical music before or after doing something bad.

Yeah, but his predecessor did while sleeping, at least.

 

[Montana Smith]

Yeah, but his predecessor did while sleeping, at least.

 

[Attila the Professor]

And while toasting, yes indeed. (Although, as recently discussed, we don't actually hear music at either time, yes?)

 

[Montana Smith]

And while toasting, yes indeed. (Although, as recently discussed, we don't actually hear music at either time, yes?)

Yes, Indy's meddling in Dietrich's affairs put paid to our chances of maybe hearing a bit of Wagner!

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

When Vogel was awarded the SA Sports Badge, I have a feeling he actually was a member of the SA. Likely also very close to Ernst Röhm. Must have hopped out of bed pretty quickly during the Night of the Long Knives. Himmler was fond of promoting men whom he could blackmail, and Vogel eventually became a Standartenführer of those very executioners of 30th June 1934.

Just when you thought the well was dry, the tigers break free!

And while toasting, yes indeed. (Although, as recently discussed, we don't actually hear music at either time, yes?)

There's music there, at least on the "Digitally Remastered" Raiders...

 

[Von Stalhein]

You know, I've never had any idea what screams you have in mind. And the rest is just absurd.

Some examples of the screams:
The screams he utters just after the Joneses escape by motorcycle.
The command "FEUER!" to the tank gunner.
The horrified scream just before the car collides with the tank.
"SCHNELL!"
His question "WO IST JONES?" just after the tank drives over said car.
The command he screams to the tank driver, ordering him to make the tank drive alongside the cliff.
Counting two punches against Jones Jr, as the latter holds on to Sr with the whip.
As the tank falls of the cliff, the pitch of his scream increases.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

When Vogel was awarded the SA Sports Badge, I have a feeling he actually was a member of the SA. Likely also very close to Ernst Röhm. Must have hopped out of bed pretty quickly during the Night of the Long Knives. Himmler was fond of promoting men whom he could blackmail, and Vogel eventually became a Standartenführer of those very executioners of 30th June 1934.

So are you or are you not speculating on Vogel's sexual preference?!!

 

[Attila the Professor]

Some examples of the screams:
The screams he utters just after the Joneses escape by motorcycle.
The command "FEUER!" to the tank gunner.
The horrified scream just before the car collides with the tank.
"SCHNELL!"
His question "WO IST JONES?" just after the tank drives over said car.
The command he screams to the tank driver, ordering him to make the tank drive alongside the cliff.
Counting two punches against Jones Jr, as the latter holds on to Sr with the whip.
As the tank falls of the cliff, the pitch of his scream increases.

I don't have the film at hand, but does anyone else see the hysteria (which I'll possibly allow - but geez does the use of the term in this context seem ugly), the effeminacy, or the high-pitch in any of these contexts? Because none of it rings true with my memories, but I don't want to rely solely upon that.

 

[Rocket Surgeon]

...does anyone else see the ...effeminacy, or the high-pitch in any of these contexts?

Nope. But Tana's working on another angle which may be more compelling...

 

[Attila the Professor]

Nope. But Tana's working on another angle which may be more compelling...

I wouldn't expect anything less.

 

[Montana Smith]

I wouldn't expect anything less.

Don't expect too much.

So are you or are you not speculating on Vogel's sexual preference?!!

The pictures speak for themselves.

I can see a Vogel/Indy Gruber/René thing going on. A completely one-sided infatuation.

Vogel would appear to be that very dangerous and insidious type of Nazi: that of the sadistic, yet camp variety. Totally self-assured in his position as long as he toes the line. Though if he steps out of line, he knows he'll be hung out to dry by his superiors, ultimately Hitler and Himmler, both of whom relished having officers in compromised circumstances.

In a regime that persecuted homosexuality, a homosexual in a position of power was an extremely useful and obedient asset, especially when unnaceptable orders had to be carried out.

 

[Von Stalhein]

Ah, that look of love...

The sadness as his love drives away...

And seeing in the window a reflection of his love coming up behind him...

I think it's more arousal due to being in control of subordinates and prisoners.

When Vogel was awarded the SA Sports Badge, I have a feeling he actually was a member of the SA. Likely also very close to Ernst Röhm. Must have hopped out of bed pretty quickly during the Night of the Long Knives. Himmler was fond of promoting men whom he could blackmail, and Vogel eventually became a Standartenführer of those very executioners of 30th June 1934.

That seems fairly likely.

Vogel missed one Nazi stereotype.

He doesn't play classical music before or after doing something bad.

He doesn't need to, because he has his own musical theme.

 

[Von Stalhein]

When Vogel was awarded the SA Sports Badge, I have a feeling he actually was a member of the SA. Likely also very close to Ernst Röhm. Must have hopped out of bed pretty quickly during the Night of the Long Knives. Himmler was fond of promoting men whom he could blackmail, and Vogel eventually became a Standartenführer of those very executioners of 30th June 1934.

Until 1934, the SS was part of the SA.

 

[Montana Smith]

Until 1934, the SS was part of the SA.

In name, but Himmler had been gradually making them indpendent of the SA in the years leading up to 1934. They stood out from the brownshirts in their black uniforms. Hitler no longer trusted the SA, and was pushing the SS forward as the future militia of the party.

 

[Von Stalhein]

Nope. But Tana's working on another angle which may be more compelling...

Who is Tana?

Don't expect too much.



The pictures speak for themselves.

I can see a Vogel/Indy Gruber/René thing going on. A completely one-sided infatuation.

With the difference of Gruber's infatuation for René was not sadistic and would not have reached its climax with the latter's death.

Vogel would appear to be that very dangerous and insidious type of Nazi: that of the sadistic, yet camp variety. Totally self-assured in his position as long as he toes the line. Though if he steps out of line, he knows he'll be hung out to dry by his superiors, ultimately Hitler and Himmler, both of whom relished having officers in compromised circumstances.

In a regime that persecuted homosexuality, a homosexual in a position of power was an extremely useful and obedient asset, especially when unnaceptable orders had to be carried out.

What kind of unacceptable orders do you mean?

 

[Montana Smith]

What kind of unacceptable orders do you mean?

I wasn't going to go there and spell them out. But you could consider the words 'final solution' and the horrific actions associated with them. It was a period when people did unspeakable things for a variety of motives ranging from sadism to fear. Maintaining an institution dedicated in part to atrocity required other means to convince officers and men to carry out orders that a decent member of society would consider 'unacceptable'.

It was accepted by those in charge that what they were doing was morally worng, and needed to be covered up, but it was deemed necessary for the perpetuation of the regime. Even Himmler was said to have turned pale when he was first shown the use of mobile gas vans. The Nuremberg trials presented correspondence from SS-Einsatzgruppen officers in which they stated the necessity of rotating their men from duty frequently as the work was 'affecting' them.

In such a system there aren't enough sadists to ensure smooth running. So other forms of coercion have to be employed.

 

[Montana Smith]

Who is Tana?

GEORGE LUCAS: Now, several aspects that we've discussed before: The image of him which is the strongest image is the "Treasure Of Sierra Madre" outfit, which is the khaki pants, he's got the leather jacket, that sort of felt hat, and the pistol and holster with a World War One sort of flap over it. He's going into the jungle carrying his gun. The other thing we've added to him, which may be fun, is a bull whip. That's really his trade mark. That's really what he's good at. He has a pistol, and he's probably very good at that, but at the same time he happens to be very good with a bull whip. It's really more of a hobby than anything else. Maybe he came from Montana...Indiana Smith. It has to be unique. It's a character. Very Americana square. He was born in Indiana.

With the difference of Gruber's infatuation for René was not sadistic and would not have reached its climax with the latter's death.

No, Gruber's infatuation certainly wouldn't have had that sort of climax in mind.

 

[Stoo]

Who is Tana?

Tana is Rocket's nickname for Montana Smith. (The pet name is inspired by the character, Dan Tanna, from the late '70s TV show, "Vega$".)

In a regime that persecuted homosexuality, a homosexual in a position of power was an extremely useful and obedient asset, especially when unnaceptable orders had to be carried out.

Agreed. The real-life Nazi seeker of the Holy Grail, Otto Rahn, was a known homosexual and a lieutenant in the SS. He briefly served at the concentration camp in Dachau due to his sexual preference.

Personally, I never figured Vogel to be gay but after reading this thread, the parallels between he and Otto Rahn have grown even stronger.