Probably like folks here I knew about the Antikythera and it's long been proposed as a possible McGuffin on blogs and articles. Does the average Joe Schmo moviegoer know? I don't know. Does the average Schmo know what the Ark of the Covenant is? Or the Grail? Or The Spear of Longinus? I didn't know what a Sankara stone was but I caught on, it's the McGuffin and if the bad guys get it they will be "all powerful." Got it, game on.
Your favorite and least favorite parts of the movie
- Thread starter Kukulcan
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FordFan
Well-known member
I'd never heard of the Antikythera.
Indy explains the fissures in time, but not the stakes. He's a skeptic, but he was also skeptical of the ark. I think his believing in the dial's powers would amplify not only the stakes, but his reason for going on the adventure. Bas could still go crazy and Indy could still believe the dial has an inherent power.
A more polished version of..."Your father always said, if this got into the wrong hands, history as we know it would change."
Indy explains the fissures in time, but not the stakes. He's a skeptic, but he was also skeptical of the ark. I think his believing in the dial's powers would amplify not only the stakes, but his reason for going on the adventure. Bas could still go crazy and Indy could still believe the dial has an inherent power.
A more polished version of..."Your father always said, if this got into the wrong hands, history as we know it would change."
I saw the Antikythera on TV shows and articles where it was presented as an example of long lost ancient technology. That the ancients had computers and who-knows-what else.
Agree with your polished version, and in the movie I didn't understand the importance of why it needed to be destroyed.
The Lone Raider
Well-known member
Because if someone figured out how to use it to locate temporal fissures, they could mess with history.
At the risk of sounding rude (apologies in advance), wasn't that fairly obvious?
FordFan
Well-known member
So rude!!
“Travel through time.” Someone needed to say it. “Temporal fissures” is the new “interdimensional beings”. Just say “aliens”.
Z dweller
Well-known member
^ This.
And the irony is that ultimately it makes no difference whatsoever.
If someone was in favor or against the notion of aliens/time travel in an Indy movie, the actual wording being used in the movie isn't likely change their mind in any meaninful way.
Dr.Jonesy
Well-known member
I disagree.
A 'fissure' is a tangible, physical thing. They don't hide that it's time travel - the Dial just specifically finds spots where it's possible.
Just saying time travel makes it seem like the Dial itself transports you rather than these rare fissures.
And it's not 'time travel classic' like in most fiction where you can travel anywhere with a device.
It's only to specific times via a fissure.
I don't think anyone in the audience didn't understand that it was time travel. It was time travel with specific limits and saying it's via fissures makes that more clear to the audience.
fedoraboy
Well-known member
Why did someone need to say it, we all knew what it meant! Temporal fissure sounds more scientific and intriguing (and potentially more painful
) and leaves it a little more mysterious and open ended - it clearly hints at some sort of time traversing, but maybe done in a way we haven't really seen before - which is exactly what the film delivers. Anyway, why this need to have everything 100% spelled out at the start of the film? At the start of Raiders do you want Indy to say "If you open the Ark everyone will either set on fire or their heads will explode, deflate or melt!"It does feel like we're getting super nick-pickety (which I suppose is sort of what this place is for!), but I guarantee you'd all be complaining just as much about it being cheesy if Indy had exclaimed "This thing is a time machine!"
Ain't that the truth!
The Lone Raider
Well-known member
But fissures in time/temporal meteorologies are exactly what they are. They're these strange anomalies that occur high in the sky during severe weather, kind of like lightning sprites and elves. They are naturally-occuring phenomena within the world of Indy. The Antikythera has no time-traveling powers. It's ultimately a computer + compass that identifies when temporal meteorologies occur and how to find them.
As of yet within the Indy world, these fissures have not been documented. Humans would only have been able to observe them after the development of air travel. On the off chance that some random pilot came across such a rare weather phenomenon, it is doubtful that they ever managed to come back to tell the tale. With air travel still being a relatively new accomplishment, scientific observation of temporal fissures in the clouds in effectively nonexistent. Thus, the Antikythera is the only known way to predict and locate time fissures. So anyone who is in possession of the complete Antikythera can, in theory, locate temporal meteoroligies and mess with time. The threat is obvious.
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FordFan
Well-known member
Because they downplayed it, I believe out of fear that some audience members would roll their eyes that the franchise resorted to time travel.Why did someone need to say it, we all knew what it meant! Temporal fissure sounds more scientific and intriguing (and potentially more painful
I underestimated how much the phrase "temporal fissure" gets some of you off. And that's all well and good. But I believe Mangold did a terrible job establishing what was at stake with this dial and why Indy is going on this adventure. If he was going after the ark under the same circumstances, motivation-wise, his being wanted for murder would be an afterthought.
FordFan
Well-known member
It couldn't be a difference of opinion.
Dr.Jonesy
Well-known member
Saying something is good/bad is opinion.
Saying something is downplayed isn't opinion - as that's about the film's actual contents versus how someone feels about that content.
FordFan
Well-known member
It's all opinion in here. The title of the thread is "your favorite and least favorite parts of the movie".
The Lone Raider
Well-known member
If he feels that some of the film's contents are downplayed and we don't, isn't that..."a matter of opinion" (Mutt Williams, 1957)?
Randy_Flagg
Well-known member
If it was intentionally downplayed, I suspect the reason was more likely so that there could be a surprising reveal once we learn what Voller's actual plan is. But part of the problem with keeping that sort of thing a surprise is that it means not revealing the stakes, and the subsequent risk that the audience won't be as invested.
To be honest, it's really difficult for me to judge this fairly since I already knew time travel was involved before seeing the movie. So for me, the stakes were apparent from the get-go. But if I hadn't known in advance, then yeah, maybe it would have bugged me a bit that the film didn't clearly explain it sooner.
I'm really not sure if I would have know what "temporal fissures" implied if I didn't already know. I would have suspected it had something to do with time,obviously ("temporal"), but maybe not understood clearly enough to get invested.
fedoraboy
Well-known member
But the franchise did ‘resort’ to time travel, so why would they downplay it in a movie that actively features it…?! Difference of opinions are all well and good, but my opinion is you’re completely wrong about this.
I don’t think it’s so much they we’re “getting off” on the phrase, more they we’re not picking to death something that - to us at least - was perfectly clear & nicely explained.
I think these are two different things - for me they did a good job of teasing the potential of the Dial & revealing over the course of the movie exactly what might be in store, only to then subvert expectations at the last minute.
However, I do think Indy’s motivations aren’t 100% clear - it’s clearer than it was in Skull, but this aspect of the script should have been beefed up a bit more.
FordFan
Well-known member
Same reason we have "interdimensional beings" in the franchise. They either wanted to soften it in case fans scoffed at the idea or wanted to intellectualize it. "Stay with us, we're not jumping the shark." But either way..
If he believed in the dial, his motivations would be clear. But he doesn't. Based on what he's seen in the last four movies, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to doubt a relic this much.
There's one key difference between the Dial + "temporal meteorologies" and the MacGuffins of the first three films, though: the Dial and the phenomenon associated with it is supposedly not supernatural in origin - in fact, it's explicitly stated not to be! From the very moment it's introduced in the prologue, it's "all physics and mathematics", as Voller puts it.
Faith enters the equation when something goes beyond a man's ken. But if a concept is presented as natural and scientific, it must be verifiable through means of science. And if all one has are a bunch of wild claims, any man of science worth his salt - as Indy is - has all the grounds to express doubt.
Of course, the alie... pardon, "interdimensional beings" in KotCS are supposedly not supernatural either, so Indy should be well aware that there's more to the observable world than meets the eye. But it's still a bit different when the tech originates from a highly advanced extraterrestial race as opposed to a mathematician from 3rd century BC.
Mike00spy
Well-known member
My head canon assumes that Indy has come against objects that were purportedly magical and weren’t. (Kind of like the Lance in the prologue) So while we think every Indy object is amazing, it’s like 4 out of 100s he’s studied, hence a lot more skepticism.