Your favorite and least favorite parts of the movie

[The Lone Raider]

Or it could simply be that he's stubbornly skeptical and doesn't want to believe in something without proof. That's like...his thing. Innocent until proven guilty; the relics are "artifacts of incredible historical significance" until proven supernatural.

For the record, Indy's motivations in Kingdom are perfectly clear. He's trying to save his old friend Oxley and help a desperate kid find his mother, who apparently knows Indy. Then when the pieces fall together and he witnesses the power of the skull firsthand, he knows that he not only must keep his friends and family safe, but must also return the skull to Akator first in order to prevent the Soviets from gaining "control over its power."
I don't understand what's confusing about his motivations here.

What's confusing in Destiny, at least to me, is why he needs the dial (and Helena) to prove his innocence. I just don't see how bringing the Antikythera back for the New York authorities to see will clear everything up and point to the real culprits. And I also feel like Helena manipulating him and absconding with a priceless artifact to sell on the black market should have been motivation enough for him.

 

[Finn]

What's confusing in Destiny, at least to me, is why he needs the dial (and Helena) to prove his innocence.

It's perhaps not proof per se, but Helena can testify that Indy didn't kill anybody. Perhaps it's a long shot, but it's the best he has.

Furthermore, perhaps Indy is not so much after proof but answers. Why did those gunmen barge into the museum archive? Why did they kill two of his colleagues? Once he knows why, he can perhaps work out some angle to catch the real culprits. And since Indy knows that he didn't do anything to land in this mess, he can easily deduce that those thugs must have been after Helena and the object she was after - meaning she can provide those answers.

In other words, Indy's quest for proof doesn't end with Helena - it begins with her.

 

[fedoraboy]

Same reason we have "interdimensional beings" in the franchise. They either wanted to soften it in case fans scoffed at the idea or wanted to intellectualize it. "Stay with us, we're not jumping the shark." But either way..

The ‘interdimensional beings’ were included by Lucas as a sort of joke to placate Spielberg who felt he’d done enough alien movies. Nothing to do with softening the idea for fans or making it seem like they weren’t jumping the shark, or indeed nuking the fridge. In fact they’re only referred to as interdimensional beings in the closing minutes of the film, throughout the rest of the movie they’re ‘saucer men’ & there’s no indication they’re meant to be anything other than ‘regular’ aliens.

If he believed in the dial, his motivations would be clear. But he doesn't. Based on what he's seen in the last four movies, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to doubt a relic this much.

Same reason he doesn’t believe in the Ark even though he’s seen the magic of the Sankara Stones. Or the Holy Grail, given he’s already witnessed the power of the Hebrew God & the Hindu gods. Or indeed ‘saucer men from Mars’ given that he’s experienced the Stones, Ark & Grail! Indy always kinda resets with each film (& novel, game & comic if you want to go there), but it’s only here you’re pulling him up on it…

At least in Dial he actually makes reference to these previous phenomenon, and goes some way toward offering his own internal explanation for them, which I think is really well done. And as Finn says, the Dial’s supposed power is completely different to the other things he’s witnessed, there’s no direct reason why he’d necessarily believe in time fissures just because he’s witnessed apparently unrelated supernatural activity.

 

[Finn]

And as Finn says, the Dial’s supposed power is completely different to the other things he’s witnessed, there’s no direct reason why he’d necessarily believe in time fissures just because he’s witnessed apparently unrelated supernatural activity.

Indeed. There are millions, if not billions of people on this earth who are convinced that God exists. Does it mean they're all also prone to believe that, say, the Loch Ness monster exists?

 

[FordFan]

The ‘interdimensional beings’ were included by Lucas as a sort of joke to placate Spielberg who felt he’d done enough alien movies. Nothing to do with softening the idea for fans or making it seem like they weren’t jumping the shark, or indeed nuking the fridge. In fact they’re only referred to as interdimensional beings in the closing minutes of the film, throughout the rest of the movie they’re ‘saucer men’ & there’s no indication they’re meant to be anything other than ‘regular’ aliens.

Not a joke by Lucas at all, but a pivot. He and Spielberg even took a beat after “Independence Day” because they didn’t know how Indy 4 could co-exist in a landscape with that movie, which 28 years later is admittedly silly.

Same reason he doesn’t believe in the Ark even though he’s seen the magic of the Sankara Stones. Or the Holy Grail, given he’s already witnessed the power of the Hebrew God & the Hindu gods. Or indeed ‘saucer men from Mars’ given that he’s experienced the Stones, Ark & Grail! Indy always kinda resets with each film (& novel, game & comic if you want to go there), but it’s only here you’re pulling him up on it…

He didn’t believe in those things… 40+ years ago. And of course, not all of the artifacts he’s pursued have had mystical powers. But even if the only mystical artifact he witnessed (or technically didn’t) was the ark, that would have to impact his worldview in some way.

 

[Walecs]

I'm really not sure if I would have know what "temporal fissures" implied if I didn't already know. I would have suspected it had something to do with time,obviously ("temporal"), but maybe not understood clearly enough to get invested.

I mean, Voller also says something along the line "now that space was conquered, time is to be conquered" and "see you in the past, dr. Jones". It couldn't be any clearer than this.

 

[Mike00spy]

It's perhaps not proof per se, but Helena can testify that Indy didn't kill anybody. Perhaps it's a long shot, but it's the best he has.

Furthermore, perhaps Indy is not so much after proof but answers. Why did those gunmen barge into the museum archive? Why did they kill two of his colleagues? Once he knows why, he can perhaps work out some angle to catch the real culprits. And since Indy knows that he didn't do anything to land in this mess, he can easily deduce that those thugs must have been after Helena and the object she was after - meaning she can provide those answers.

In other words, Indy's quest for proof doesn't end with Helena - it begins with her.

You could have had an exposition scene about this, most likely at Sallah’s home, where Indy talks through this.

But would that have been good for the movie? I don’t think slowing down the pace at that point is the best move. Get Indy on the plane and on his adventure asap.

In fact, it would be the perfect scene for a novel adaptation, if Lucasfilm had bothered to commission one.

 

[Randy_Flagg]

I mean, Voller also says something along the line "now that space was conquered, time is to be conquered" and "see you in the past, dr. Jones". It couldn't be any clearer than this.

I've still only seen the movie once, so I'm forgetting things, apparently.

 

[fedoraboy]

But even if the only mystical artifact he witnessed (or technically didn’t) was the ark, that would have to impact his worldview in some way.

So why was he dismissive of the Grail, or the Skull? He pursued both these things AFTER he found the Ark, and certainly the Grail is closer - from a religious POV - to the Ark than is the Dial. You’re dismissing his attitude in DoD, even though it’s consistent with his attitude in all the other sequels. If anything DoD should be applauded for at least including a scene where Indy attempts to rationalise what he’s experienced.

 

[Walecs]

You could have had an exposition scene about this, most likely at Sallah’s home, where Indy talks through this.

But would that have been good for the movie? I don’t think slowing down the pace at that point is the best move. Get Indy on the plane and on his adventure asap.

In fact, it would be the perfect scene for a novel adaptation, if Lucasfilm had bothered to commission one.

I'm still bummed that we didn't get a novelization or another LEGO game. The LEGO Indiana Jones games are my favourite Lego games.

On one hand, Dial is the better film, but on the other hand, Kingdom got the better merchandising.

 

[FordFan]

So why was he dismissive of the Grail, or the Skull? He pursued both these things AFTER he found the Ark, and certainly the Grail is closer - from a religious POV - to the Ark than is the Dial. You’re dismissing his attitude in DoD, even though it’s consistent with his attitude in all the other sequels. If anything DoD should be applauded for at least including a scene where Indy attempts to rationalise what he’s experienced.

“Consistent with his attitude in all the sequels” is what I’m talking about. By the time he’s 70, the character really should be more of the mindset of “I don’t know if it’s true. But from what I’ve seen, I’m not ruling it out.”

His motivations in KOTCS are even more flawed. And in LC, he’s after his father and the grail, real or not, is an afterthought of that.

Indeed. There are millions, if not billions of people on this earth who are convinced that God exists. Does it mean they're all also prone to believe that, say, the Loch Ness monster exists?

If you’ve seen actual proof that God exists on several occasions, what would surprise you anymore?

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

By the time he’s 70, the character really should be more of the mindset of “I don’t know if it’s true. But from what I’ve seen, I’m not ruling it out.”

Isn't this pretty much the underlying implications of his words with Helena on the boat..?

 

[FordFan]

Isn't this pretty much the underlying implications of his words with Helena on the boat..?

Yes. But it's not his motivation for being there. He's out to clear his name for murder. Not to stop the Nazis from getting the dial, which may or may not have powers.

 

[Mike00spy]

Yes. But it's not his motivation for being there. He's out to clear his name for murder. Not to stop the Nazis from getting the dial, which may or may not have powers.

But at the same time, he can’t go risking his life chasing any artifact that’s purported to have magical powers. He ended up on the Nazi train and could’ve died a couple of times chasing the Lance, which was a fake anyway.

 

[FordFan]

But at the same time, he can’t go risking his life chasing any artifact that’s purported to have magical powers. He ended up on the Nazi train and could’ve died a couple of times chasing the Lance, which was a fake anyway.

Not untrue! I just thought they could have finessed his motivation in this. It's flawed, but not as much as KOTCS.

 

[Mike00spy]

To be fair, I don’t think Indy specifically mentioned clearing his name once he found out about Voller’s presence.

 

[fedoraboy]

Yes. But it's not his motivation for being there. He's out to clear his name for murder. Not to stop the Nazis from getting the dial, which may or may not have powers.

When he first sets off to find Helena & the Dial he doesn’t know the Nazis are after it. As soon as he DOES know this his main motivation is to stop them, and then he talks to Helena on the boat and we see he DOES think the Dial may have some sort of power.

“Consistent with his attitude in all the sequels” is what I’m talking about. By the time he’s 70, the character really should be more of the mindset of “I don’t know if it’s true. But from what I’ve seen, I’m not ruling it out.”

Who says this is what his mindset should be in his 70’s?? I’m not sure why it would take 30+ years for Indy to realise that maybe some supernatural stuff is real - surely his revelation SHOULD be fairly immediate after witnessing the power of the Ark, Grail, Voodoo… but it’s part and parcel of the franchise that Indy starts out with a healthy level of skepticism! Dial is the one that actually bucks this trend a little and allows us to see how Indy rationalizes all this - as Jonesy says, what you seem to be asking for is pretty much what he says to Helena on the boat - it’s a great scene.

 

[FordFan]

Who says this is what his mindset should be in his 70’s?? I’m not sure why it would take 30+ years for Indy to realise that maybe some supernatural stuff is real - surely his revelation SHOULD be fairly immediate after witnessing the power of the Ark, Grail, Voodoo… but it’s part and parcel of the franchise that Indy starts out with a healthy level of skepticism! Dial is the one that actually bucks this trend a little and allows us to see how Indy rationalizes all this - as Jonesy says, what you seem to be asking for is pretty much what he says to Helena on the boat - it’s a great scene.

It's got its moments, but I dunno what the Butterworth brothers were smoking with the, "It's not what you believe. It's how hard you believe it" line. Just sounds like a forced monologue they really wanted to get into the trailer.

I would rather Indy go on the adventure to stop the Nazis from obtaining what may or may not be a powerful relic, believing Helena to be in over her head. I think the movie works better with him knowing about the Nazis' involvement sooner and feeling compelled to do something about it. No one else has his knowledge and skillset. No one else has dealt with them as extensively as he has. You could still reveal Voller as a surprise to Indy later.

If it wasn't included in the movie and someone here on the boards suggested an "Indy wanted for murder" subplot, everyone here would think they were on crack. As it is, it's his actual motivation in the movie. And as @The Lone Raider mentioned, it's not like he had a plan to get the dial and Helena, bring them back to NY, and have her vouch for his innocence.

 

[michael]

It's got its moments, but I dunno what the Butterworth brothers were smoking with the, "It's not what you believe. It's how hard you believe it" line. Just sounds like a forced monologue they really wanted to get into the trailer.

that line was atrocious

 

[Mike00spy]

that line was atrocious

It's got its moments, but I dunno what the Butterworth brothers were smoking with the, "It's not what you believe. It's how hard you believe it" line. Just sounds like a forced monologue they really wanted to get into the trailer.

The line signifies that whether or not the Dial is legit, Voller is fanatical enough to do whatever is necessary- including killing- to achieve his ends.