Your favorite and least favorite parts of the movie

[Mike00spy]

And you can look at it from a historical context-

For example:

it doesn’t matter if you are Christian (what you believe) unless you (believe it hard enough) that you start Crusades.

Or, in the case of Indy’s own historical context, antisemitism is evil enough, but when you take Nazis who believe hard enough, you get the atrocity of the Holocaust.

 

[Finn]

To be fair, I don’t think Indy specifically mentioned clearing his name once he found out about Voller’s presence.

When he first sets off to find Helena & the Dial he doesn’t know the Nazis are after it. As soon as he DOES know this his main motivation is to stop them, and then he talks to Helena on the boat and we see he DOES think the Dial may have some sort of power.

Mhm. Indy sets out to Tangiers in hopes of finding Helena so that she can help him clear his name. But as soon as the former Nazi scientist he once encountered steps into the room, accompanied by the big goon from New York, Indy understands that Voller is responsible for all his present misfortunes and his motivation shifts to stopping whatever this evil SOB is up to.

The problem certain people in this thread seem to have is that it's not explicitly spelled out in dialogue. But, you know, that's really not necessary when it can be inferred from... well, everything else that's going on on the screen. So if you're complaining about things not being spelled out for you, the joke's at least partially on you for not paying attention.

 

[The Lone Raider]

Again, one of Indy's core character traits is his stubborn cling to skepticism, at least on the outside. He'll hardly admit it to himself, but deep down, he believes in the supernatural quite a bit. But he wants proof. His ego won't allow him to accept supernatural explanations until he feels that he absolutely has to.

Mhm. Indy sets out to Tangiers in hopes of finding Helena so that she can help him clear his name. But as soon as the former Nazi scientist he once encountered steps into the room, accompanied by the big goon from New York, Indy understands that Voller is responsible for all his present misfortunes and his motivation shifts to stopping whatever this evil SOB is up to.

The problem certain people in this thread seem to have is that it's not explicitly spelled out in dialogue. But, you know, that's really not necessary when it can be inferred from... well, everything else that's going on on the screen. So if you're complaining about things not being spelled out for you, the joke's at least partially on you for not paying attention.

Can't argue that. I've been annoyed with a few people here lately wanting everything spelled out to them, but Indy's motivational pivot in Destiny went over my head because I didn't read between the lines. I'll swallow the humility pill.

 

[FordFan]

The line signifies that whether or not the Dial is legit, Voller is fanatical enough to do whatever is necessary- including killing- to achieve his ends.

If applied to Voller (which I don’t think it was), it sounds to me that it matters a whole lot what he believes.

Mhm. Indy sets out to Tangiers in hopes of finding Helena so that she can help him clear his name. But as soon as the former Nazi scientist he once encountered steps into the room, accompanied by the big goon from New York, Indy understands that Voller is responsible for all his present misfortunes and his motivation shifts to stopping whatever this evil SOB is up to.

The problem certain people in this thread seem to have is that it's not explicitly spelled out in dialogue. But, you know, that's really not necessary when it can be inferred from... well, everything else that's going on on the screen. So if you're complaining about things not being spelled out for you, the joke's at least partially on you for not paying attention.

Why would Helena help Indy clear his name? She locked him in that archive and left him there to deal with men with guns… the same people who killed his colleagues…with no remorse. She saw the headlines and knew people were killed and the blame was placed on Indy. She had every chance to testify to his innocence: what did she do about it? What was Indy’s plan to get her to leave Tangier for New York?

I must not have been paying attention. It couldn’t be that the filmmakers dropped an entire subplot like a sack of potatoes.

 

[Finn]

Why would Helena help Indy clear his name? She locked him in that archive and left him there to deal with men with guns… the same people who killed his colleagues…with no remorse. She saw the headlines and knew people were killed and the blame was placed on Indy. She had every chance to testify to his innocence: what did she do about it? What was Indy’s plan to get her to leave Tangier for New York?

So, what should Indy do once he learns he's wanted for murders he didn't commit? Turn himself in? Go into hiding in Sallah's basement?

Yeah, Helena probably wouldn't agree to help Indy just like that. But she's still Indy's best bet, no matter how difficult convincing her might be. Well, unless there is some better, easier way the movie makes blatantly obvious. And if there is, please do tell. I'll gladly admit I wasn't paying attention.

As a possibly related note, Sallah suggests involving Marion somehow. But if that's the "smart" thing Indy should do instead of chasing his goddaughter-turned-criminal across the globe, the movie doesn't do exactly a sterling job of explaining the benefits of that option either.

 

[FordFan]

So, what should Indy do once he learns he's wanted for murders he didn't commit? Turn himself in? Go into hiding in Sallah's basement?

Yeah, Helena probably wouldn't agree to help Indy just like that. But she's still Indy's best bet, no matter how difficult convincing her might be. Well, unless there is some better, easier way the movie makes blatantly obvious. And if there is, please do tell. I'll gladly admit I wasn't paying attention.

As a possibly related note, Sallah suggests involving Marion somehow. But if that's the "smart" thing Indy should do instead of chasing his goddaughter-turned-criminal across the globe, the movie doesn't do exactly a sterling job of explaining the benefits of that option either.

I mean, it wouldn’t take a lawyer like Cochran to clear his name. What’s his motive for killing two of his coworkers, and why on the same day he retired? He’s the one who called 9-1-1, if the operator could recognize his voice. Witnesses seeing him being strong-armed by two goons in and out of a van, maybe even with a bag over his head. Many witnesses seeing one of those guys firing a gun off in a crowded parade. Indy would be a person of interest at best. To quote Richard Kimble’s lawyer, “Why did you run? Running only makes you look guilty!”

The question is: could he get away with stealing a police horse? I say neigh.

 

[Finn]

I mean, it wouldn’t take a lawyer like Cochran to clear his name. What’s his motive for killing two of his coworkers, and why on the same day he retired? He’s the one who called 9-1-1, if the operator could recognize his voice. Witnesses seeing him being strong-armed by two goons in and out of a van, maybe even with a bag over his head. Many witnesses seeing one of those guys firing a gun off in a crowded parade. Indy would be a person of interest at best. To quote Richard Kimble’s lawyer, “Why did you run? Running only makes you look guilty!”

You know, if people in this movie acted according to real-life sensibilities, then Indy wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place, because the CIA squad accompanying Klaber and Hauke would have slapped them in cuffs for two blatant murders the moment the agents stepped out of that elevator. But instead they keep happily working alongside those two trigger-happy goons, even taking orders from them! The only one who protests - very mildly - is Mason. (As an aside, this is far from the first time I'm complaining about this.)

And since the movie quite blatantly establishes here that nope, we're a gritty adventure film instead of a police procedural or a courthouse drama, it's quite unlikely that a phone call to a lawyer, even to Johnnie Cochran himself, could have sorted everything out.

 

[fedoraboy]

that line was atrocious

It's not the explanation I would have gone for (in my fan fiction novel, Sword of the Gods, I came up with something better, IMO ) but I do think it's a good line and you can sort of see how Indy could begin to rationalise his experiences thinking this way. It also works great in the trailer, but I don't think that's the main motivation for it being there.

 

[michael]

it's just an awkward line. it's either you believe or not. you can't believe harder.

least favorite: the prologue.

and then having to feel sympathy for Indiana Jones. Never wanted that in an Indy film.

favorite: i LIKED the way Voller died. I didn't need it to be over-the-top.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

it's just an awkward line. it's either you believe or not. you can't believe harder.

As someone who grew up in a Baptist family that shifted evangelical - yes you can.

 

[michael]

you either believe something or you don't.

how does one measure someone believing harder than someone about any given thing.

 

[Z dweller]

Whichever way you look at it, that line is clunky. Ugh.

 

[michael]

Whichever way you look at it, that line is clunky. Ugh.

it's up there with the over use of "the gravity of the situation" that was used in Skull and i feel like countless other films.

the scriptwriters when they wrote the 'how hard you believe it line'

 

[FordFan]

Anyone else notice Indy is wearing Richard Kimble's wardrobe when he goes to Baz's house?

 

[michael]

Anyone else notice Indy is wearing Richard Kimble's wardrobe when he goes to Baz's house?

makes sense given the inspiration for the wanted for murder plot that they forgot was in the film

 

[antonb]

My favourite part was about a year before the release. I really thought Mangold was a great choice and would knock it out of the park.And with Fords reaction to it gave me great hope. The worst part was the first time I watched it, and knew it was a stinker! Heart broken!

 

[michael]

it was just so boring until the flight to the time fissure

 

[Mike00spy]

Some thoughts on the murder subplot:

It’s fine. It’s not my favorite part of the movie. It’s just there to serve its function of the plot.

But let’s unravel it a bit here, for sake of argument:

Let’s say you just simply cut it. Indy watches the television and it reports of chaos at the parade and no mention of Jones. Sallah tells him about Helena selling the Dial. What would Indy’s motivation be here? The Dial was locked away and forgotten anyway. Should he travel all the way to Tangiers to get it back out of spite? The only other reason to go is so he doesn’t have to talk to the CIA again.

Let’s go further: Voller’s men don’t murder his colleagues. Then you would just have the government agents questioning him about the Dial. You would also lose the parade chase and subway escape. What’s in it for Indy to go after Helena now?

 

[michael]

It's just horrible writing that I doubt you would give the benefit of the doubt to other movies.

 

[Mike00spy]

It's just horrible writing that I doubt you would give the benefit of the doubt to other movies.

This statement would be true if:

A) I considered it horrible writing.
B) I ignored my own opinion to spare the feelings of Mangold, Ford, etc.

But since it’s not how I feel…

Once again, I find the murder subplot functional, not profound. I also don’t see another way without a drastic revision of the film.

Helena stealing it from Indy is a key character moment, especially when considering how she will act in the climax of the film. That has to stay. But I don’t see why Indy should bother to chase her around the globe to get it back. You also need Indy to fear for his life to trigger the parade/subway escape. The wanted subplot does get Indy on the plane in an efficient way. I would imagine other reasons needing more exposition scenes and that would add more to the runtime.

Perhaps you have a different way?