The Dark Knight

DocWhiskey said:

Now all I need is an explanation on how the Joker is the only one standing when he blows up the body in the police department. But I think I'm gettin' to picky now.

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The whole department didn't blow up, just the holding cell. He created a chaotic diversion to escape. No plot hole.

Mike00spy said:

It's called a plot hole.

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Not if you go by the definition of "plot hole."

When arguing with Lucius over the sonar-observation thingy, why does Bruce use his Batman voice..?

Sure, TDK has its niggles, but the overall quality is impeccable...

Agent Spalko said:

A number of reasons:

1) When Dent had Gordon's family at the place where Rachel died, the police had a border already set up. By this time, Joker was in custody. Had they blamed Joker, everyone would have known they were lying. That would prompt an investigation into the other deaths. Batman and Gordon wanted to preserve Dent's image as the "White Knight," giving the citizens of Gotham hope.

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I thought Batman was blamed for the deaths of Two-Face's vicitms, not Dent's death. You can easily save Dent's image without having to resort to blaming Batman. You can easily blame the deaths on Marroone's men. Or, you can quite simply have an unsolved crime. You telling me that Gotham, of all places, doesn't have unsolved crimes?

If he was blamed for Dent's death, you would still have plenty of people asking questions.

"Why in the world was Dent here?"
"Why does Dent's gun match the bullets taken from these cop deaths?"
"Batman never uses a gun"
"Why does Batman not have a motive for these deaths, when Dent obviously does.... and it was his gun to begin with"
"Batman was fighting the Joker, when Gordon fielded the call, which lead to his capture. Who, then, made the original call?"
"Why would Batman kill Dent after taking the time to save him from the Joker earlier in the film?

Batman as a killer doesn't hold up in any way, shape, or form. Certainly, Gordon would look pretty bad if it was found out that Batman was really innocent.

Agent Spalko said:

2) Batman wouldn't want to falsely pin crimes on even someone like the Joker.

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Yes, because it is morally okay to lie to the public by implicating an innocent person, but not okay to lie to the public by blaming a mass murderer?

Agent Spalko said:

3) After the events of The Dark Knight, Batman can no longer allow himself to be affiliated with Gotham Police without risking more deaths. By "rebranding" himself, he not only severs all ties to authority, he is also "becoming the villain." As Dent is allowed to die a hero, Batman must accept the opposite responsibility. (i.e.- Dent's phrase, "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.")

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The police could just go further in distancing themselves from Batman. If it is necessary for the people of Gotham to hate Batman, what does that really say? That the idea of Batman is something to be despised? That he is in no way a hero? Then why in the world are we bothering watching these movies?

Agent Spalko said:

4) Harvey Dent is a leading prosecutor. If word was to get out that he's a crazy killer, all the crime bosses in prison would have sufficient grounds for appeal. All the convictions of all the cases Dent has ever tried could be overturned, and all the crime bosses would be back on the street. The movie mentions this a few times. In their first meeting, the mayor cautioned Dent that he had better watch himself, because all they need is a little dirt on him and all the cases would crumble. During the scene where Dent threatens the fake honor guard who was actually a paranoid schizophrenic, Batman warns Dent that killing him would put all the cases in jeopardy. Batman reiterates this to Gordon at the end.

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Like I said before, since there is zero evidence Batman killed those cops, then it is just as easy to blame it on the mob, or just to have it unsolved.

Agent Spalko said:

5) During their final confrontation, the Joker explains that Batman's weakness is his adherence to rules. Why abide by a code when your enemies obviously don't? Pinning Two-Face's crimes on Batman is sending a message to the public, and it's not a terribly positive one. This also plays into his psychological dilemma evidenced by the line "I've seen what I have to become to stop men like him."

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I always thought that meant that Batman would have to break his one rule (killing) in order to get rid of the Joker. (Which of course he already broke at the end of Batman Begins, but oh well.) I suppose you can also use that line when he was illegally spying on every citizen of Gotham, too.

sandiegojones said:

The whole department didn't blow up, just the holding cell. He created a chaotic diversion to escape. No plot hole.

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His whole escape streches the limits of logic to their breaking point.


A) There is no reason to leave a cop inside the interrogation room with the Joker first of all. That screams, "Hey, the Joker is going to escape by capturing the cop!"

B) The hapless cop wanted his buddies to shoot the Joker. They had a clear shot. Even more so when the Joker focused his attention to call the number! The Joker couldn't have killed the cop with the piece of glass, since a shot to the head would kill him instantly, not give him the strength to then tear out the cop's throat. I suppose I just have to believe that the cops were just stupid in order to NOT admit the movie messed up there.

C) What in the world happened to the other cops? The Joker grabbed the Chinese man and just walked out of the building. Did the blast just go around the Joker, kinda of like a new age magic bullet, and just take out the cops?


===

It is okay... the movie is not perfect ... nothing is.

Mike00spy said:

It is okay... the movie is not perfect ... nothing is.

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You lie! KOTCS and the SW PT are perfect. PERFECT I SAY!!!!

A few notes.

Regarding A) : Batman had already kicked the cr*p out of the Joker, and he didn't look particularily adept at hand-to-hand combat, so no harm in having someone watching him inside the interrogation room while they arranged to move him back to his cell.

B) People do not become cops to shoot people in the head. Gordon's men were dealing with the Joker taking a hostage as by the book as possible, given the circumstances.

C) I guess Gordon's unit just didn't have that many officers around at the time, since most seemed to go out to rescue Dent and Rachel. It's never clear if both locations were at the same distance from Gordon's Unit. My guess is Batman chose the one farthest, since with his Batpod he could arrive sooner than the GCPD patrol cars.

Errex said:

A few notes.

Regarding A) : Batman had already kicked the cr*p out of the Joker, and he didn't look particularily adept at hand-to-hand combat, so no harm in having someone watching him inside the interrogation room while they arranged to move him back to his cell.

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You NEVER EVER leave a cop inside a room with a prisoner who doesn't even have handcuffs on and one who is as dangerous as the Joker!! There is no need for the cop to "watch him" from inside the room. Just lock the door.

Like I said, you have to use the excuse, "the cops are incompetant" in order to excuse problems in the script.

Errex said:

B) People do not become cops to shoot people in the head. Gordon's men were dealing with the Joker taking a hostage as by the book as possible, given the circumstances.

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No one would shed a tear over the Joker's death. They were within their rights to deal with the situation that way... by saving the cop. It happens sometimes. Just like how the SWAT team was willing to take out a bunch of the Joker's men (who were the hostages) during the seige of the building.

Errex said:

C) I guess Gordon's unit just didn't have that many officers around at the time, since most seemed to go out to rescue Dent and Rachel. It's never clear if both locations were at the same distance from Gordon's Unit. My guess is Batman chose the one farthest, since with his Batpod he could arrive sooner than the GCPD patrol cars.

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I would leave more than just 3 cops to guard an important prison like that.

agentsands77 said:

Not if you go by the definition of "plot hole."

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A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.

>>You NEVER EVER leave a cop inside a room with a prisoner who doesn't even have handcuffs on and one who is as dangerous as the Joker!! There is no need for the cop to "watch him" from inside the room. Just lock the door.<<
I found that to be really idiotic, unbelievable & lazy too.

Mike00spy said:

A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.

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But that event wasn't a "gap or inconsistency in a storyline." It's just a rather crazy event, but far from impossible or beyond the boundaries of the story.

Mike00spy said:

No one would shed a tear over the Joker's death. They were within their rights to deal with the situation that way... by saving the cop. It happens sometimes. Just like how the SWAT team was willing to take out a bunch of the Joker's men (who were the hostages) during the seige of the building.

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Things still go differently in hostage situations. They try to avoid murder at all costs. But to suggest that the GCPD was acting stupidly isn't really that far-reaching, after all... regular cops aren't uniformly intelligent people, especially in a city like Gotham, and I got the impression in those scenes that the cops weren't supposed to be among the brightest bulbs in the shed.

Mike00spy said:

I would leave more than just 3 cops to guard an important prison like that.

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It wasn't a prison, it was just the cop headquarters, and it was the middle of the night so most of the cops were out and about. Most of the cops had to leave to try and rescue Rachel, so out of necessity things were spread thin.

agentsands77 said:

Things still go differently in hostage situations. They try to avoid murder at all costs. But to suggest that the GCPD was acting stupidly isn't really that far-reaching, after all... regular cops aren't uniformly intelligent people, especially in a city like Gotham, and I got the impression in those scenes that the cops weren't supposed to be among the brightest bulbs in the shed.

It wasn't a prison, it was just the cop headquarters, and it was the middle of the night so most of the cops were out and about. Most of the cops had to leave to try and rescue Rachel, so out of necessity things were spread thin.

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I love how everyone who's seen this movie's a f'n expert in police procedure now. It's a very weak link in the story, and there are several parts like that. Now, being the simple minded KCS lovin' person I am, don't mind it - the movie succeeded in entertaining me. But it's not the tightest script possible, and there are holes & convenient lapses of logic.

Peacock's-Eye said:

I love how everyone who's seen this movie's a f'n expert in police procedure now. It's a very weak link in the story, and there are several parts like that. Now, being the simple minded KCS lovin' person I am, don't mind it - the movie succeeded in entertaining me. But it's not the tightest script possible, and there are holes & convenient lapses of logic.

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Exactly.

We all have room in our brains to say "that was a weak link the story b/c it was completely illogical" and say that TDK was a great movie. We can do that, right?

Peacock's-Eye said:

...there are holes & convenient lapses of logic.

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This is common in all forms of storytelling, and always has been. Even James Fenimore Cooper, one of the fathers of adventure novels, suffered from this.

Mike00spy said:

Exactly.

We all have room in our brains to say "that was a weak link the story b/c it was completely illogical" and say that TDK was a great movie. We can do that, right?

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Well sure. And there are plot holes in TDK that are entirely problematic, and pretty unresolvable.

But I also don't subscribe to the thought that every character's response should be the so-called "right and intelligent" response. I only require the responses to be plausible given the characters we're dealing with, and I don't really find all of what you suggest to be huge issues implausible given the Gotham police force. I mean, I think it's kind of implicit in the way those scenes unfold that we're not supposed to think the cops are making the right decisions, after all.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/....html?id=b343a176-4c04-4125-8f46-ca75cf41125a

The Dark Knight is racing up the ranks, but the Batman sequel will stall at No. 2 with about $510 million to $520 million, Warner Bros. Pictures predicts.

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For there's one simple reason the box office party likely will end sooner rather than later for Dark Knight and it's spelled D-V-D.

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http://www.thehdroom.com/news/The_Dark_Knight_on_Blu-ray_December_9/3277

We've now received word from our trusty friends over at HDAddicts.com that Warner is indeed planning to release The Dark Knight December 9 on Blu-ray Disc per an early retailer sales sheet.

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Peacock's-Eye said:

But it's not the tightest script possible, and there are holes & convenient lapses of logic.

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True, it's dreadfully sloppy, cynical screenwriting. Under the direction of 'better, 'gifted' 'writers', The Joker could have jumped into the cops' hidden beer-fridge and ride the blast out of the station altogether, while a posse of purple-clad career-criminal monkeys open Lao's cell-door and force him to swing out the window from hanging lights. Whoaa..!

Shame on you, Christopher. Shame on you, Jonathan. Have you learned nothing from the masters?

The Man said:

True, it's dreadfully sloppy, cynical screenwriting. Under the direction of 'better, 'gifted' 'writers', The Joker could have jumped into the cops' hidden beer-fridge and ride the blast out of the station altogether, while a posse of purple-clad career-criminal monkeys open Lao's cell-door and force him to swing out the window from hanging lights. Whoaa..!

Shame on you, Christopher. Shame on you, Jonathan. Have you learned nothing from the masters?

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What's the difference? Really? They're both ways of getting out of writing the story into a corner. They're both unbelievable. Only you and a handful of noisy whiners seem to have a problem or are anxious to make comparisons.

Peacock's-Eye said:

What's the difference? Really? They're both ways of getting out of writing the story into a corner. They're both unbelievable. Only you and a handful of noisy whiners seem to have a problem or are anxious to make comparisons.

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Yeah, I mean, can we just accept the fact that while trying to be a 'real' movie, The Dark Knight is still in essence a comic book?