Second time is a charm!!!... a motivational return to INDY 4

[Zorg]

I must agree. KotCS was much better the second time around. Those 19 years were a major obstacle on the first time. It was hard to focus.

But this time, I was able to just enjoy the ride, like I have enjoyed all the previous ones.

 

[Darth Vile]

Great thread. You really hit the Indy 4 problem. We don't look at Indy as if we were kids again. When I sit down and watch one of the original 3 I feel like I am 7 years old again. I hope this movie will make me feel the same way after I watch it a few more times.

Quoted for truth.

Even if people were not around in 1981, most people's exposure to Indiana Jones (or Star Wars), commenced when they were a kid (I'd be concerned for anyone who got into Indiana Jones or Star Wars as an adults). Ergo, as a child, they build an emotional connection to the movies (if they like them that is). That's why, for example, there will never be a better version/remake of 'It's a Wonderfull Life' or 'The Wizard of Oz'. I could sit here all day picking holes in them as movies, but I'll never be able to convince people they are less special than they are...

Of course the world may not need another Indiana Jones movie... and I think if you strip away all the emotion (and within context), that's possibly the only real critisism you can have about KOTCS (and that could have been said after Raiders).

 

[ResidentAlien]

Quoted for truth.

Even if people were not around in 1981, most people's exposure to Indiana Jones (or Star Wars), commenced when they were a kid (I'd be concerned for anyone who got into Indiana Jones or Star Wars as an adults). Ergo, as a child, they build an emotional connection to the movies (if they like them that is). That's why, for example, there will never be a better version/remake of 'It's a Wonderfull Life' or 'The Wizard of Oz'. I could sit here all day picking holes in them as movies, but I'll never be able to convince people they are less special than they are...

Of course the world may not need another Indiana Jones movie... and I think if you strip away all the emotion (and within context), that's possibly the only real critisism you can have about KOTCS (and that could have been said after Raiders).

Your posts just never cease to amaze me with their sheer ignorance and brash stupidity.

You'd be concerned for an adult coming to the Indy films? Why? Because they recognize craft? I've said it before and I'll say it again--the Indiana Jones films are not children's films. You can't reconcile the graphic violence and sexual/ alcoholic currents that run in the films with children's fluff. And if you so belittle the films, what the hell are you doing on an Indiana Jones board?

Do you fault me for having first seen Alice in Wonderland or Labyrinth at the age of 18? Am I wrong for recognizing the craft in a film that may appeal to a child?

Frankly I don't understand you; as I see it, this is nothing but another desperate attempt to rationalize the existence of the 4th film. Yeah, a lot of adults are angered by it. It's not for any lack of trying on their part. If people hate the film, it's just as likely it's due to the fact that it's a terrible film that doesn't hold water or exhibit any form of craft than it is that they're "too grown up." No one's "too grown up" for anything. Craft is craft; just because you watch films to fry your brain doesn't mean the rest of the world follows in those pathetic footsteps.



Carry on.

 

[Darth Vile]

Your posts just never cease to amaze me with their sheer ignorance and brash stupidity.

You'd be concerned for an adult coming to the Indy films? Why? Because they recognize craft? I've said it before and I'll say it again--the Indiana Jones films are not children's films. You can't reconcile the graphic violence and sexual/ alcoholic currents that run in the films with children's fluff. And if you so belittle the films, what the hell are you doing on an Indiana Jones board?

Do you fault me for having first seen Alice in Wonderland or Labyrinth at the age of 18? Am I wrong for recognizing the craft in a film that may appeal to a child?

Frankly I don't understand you; as I see it, this is nothing but another desperate attempt to rationalize the existence of the 4th film. Yeah, a lot of adults are angered by it. It's not for any lack of trying on their part. If people hate the film, it's just as likely it's due to the fact that it's a terrible film that doesn't hold water or exhibit any form of craft than it is that they're "too grown up." No one's "too grown up" for anything. Craft is craft; just because you watch films to fry your brain doesn't mean the rest of the world follows in those pathetic footsteps.



Carry on.

Yet again Resident Alien you fail to join the dots and show that you are best excluded from sensible conversation.

What’s not to like about Indiana Jones as a movie? Nothing of course… but YOU have serious problems (bordering on clinical) if you think it’s normal behaviour to spend a large proportion of your time (which you do), on a specialist discussion board, forever criticizing the subject matter (probably with your trousers around your ankles). You are strange little man to say the least.

You don’t even get the point of the debate (which is again frustrating), you can't make intelligent connections, your small world is black and white and you clearly believe that people's opinions exist in a vacuum. Only yesterday someone who vented the same amount of vitriol actually admitted that KOTCS wasn’t a bad movie, just a lesser movie (in their eyes) to the other three. That’s the point of discussion here i.e. what makes the difference in objective terms? As usual – you have nothing to contribute and only look for opportunities to terrorise/hijack discussions. Pull your trousers back up and move on.

 

[tnswman]

I've now seen Indy 4 five times and I have to say that this movie gets better and better with each viewing.

Not only does it feel more Indyish, you tend to notice little things more and more. I noticed things like Harrison giving lop sided smiles, that sort of thing.

You Got it!!

since I have one of the dreaded DVD's, I have seen it 14 times now ( 6 times in the theater ) and to me, it is as Indy as the others ( and several of you know how big of an Indy fan I am) It fits, It works, and THEY WON!! Indy 4 is a MASSIVE hit! The days of studios only caring what the USA does with it's movies are OVER.

There are the semi vocal fanboys who complain about the smallest details about this film and understand that each Indy movie had those moments if you view them with the same eye that watched KOTCS.....

Then, there are the VERY vocal NON-fanboys ( Spalko, Maxp, and such ) that have hated this movie from the moment that they realized that Lucas and Co. were not making the movie EXACTLY like they wanted them to. Which is STUPID!

 

[tnswman]

Your posts just never cease to amaze me with their sheer ignorance and brash stupidity.

You'd be concerned for an adult coming to the Indy films? Why? Because they recognize craft? I've said it before and I'll say it again--the Indiana Jones films are not children's films. You can't reconcile the graphic violence and sexual/ alcoholic currents that run in the films with children's fluff. And if you so belittle the films, what the hell are you doing on an Indiana Jones board?

Do you fault me for having first seen Alice in Wonderland or Labyrinth at the age of 18? Am I wrong for recognizing the craft in a film that may appeal to a child?

Frankly I don't understand you; as I see it, this is nothing but another desperate attempt to rationalize the existence of the 4th film. Yeah, a lot of adults are angered by it. It's not for any lack of trying on their part. If people hate the film, it's just as likely it's due to the fact that it's a terrible film that doesn't hold water or exhibit any form of craft than it is that they're "too grown up." No one's "too grown up" for anything. Craft is craft; just because you watch films to fry your brain doesn't mean the rest of the world follows in those pathetic footsteps.



Carry on.

You are the Blackest Kettle on the block aren't you? Oh well, at least you match all of the Pots around here!

 

[tnswman]

Yet again Resident Alien you fail to join the dots and show that you are best excluded from sensible conversation.

What?s not to like about Indiana Jones as a movie? Nothing of course? but YOU have serious problems (bordering on clinical) if you think it?s normal behaviour to spend a large proportion of your time (which you do), on a specialist discussion board, forever criticizing the subject matter (probably with your trousers around your ankles). You are strange little man to say the least.

You don?t even get the point of the debate (which is again frustrating), you can't make intelligent connections, your small world is black and white and you clearly believe that people's opinions exist in a vacuum. Only yesterday someone who vented the same amount of vitriol actually admitted that KOTCS wasn?t a bad movie, just a lesser movie (in their eyes) to the other three. That?s the point of discussion here i.e. what makes the difference in objective terms? As usual ? you have nothing to contribute and only look for opportunities to terrorise/hijack discussions. Pull your trousers back up and move on.

The amazing thing about people such as Resident is that they show their true selves immediatly and EVERY new post they make, remains as stale and old as the 1st post they made. You can pick apart their posts with ease and when they are simple wrong or outnumbered, they result to name calling....These people do not want to associate with others just like them, they simply get off on arguing the same feeble points over and over again even though that point has been defeated time and time again.

The simple mindedness of these people only circulates one idea over and over and has no credibility they just don't seem to grasp the joke they have become.

No matter what though, I'm sure one of the 3 major trolls here will reply with the same old tired response again and take this thread back another step instead of forward.

Too bad because the truth of the matter is that people really are enjoying Indy more the 2nd-5th time they see it. That is the SIMPLE REALITY!!

 

[ResidentAlien]

Ah, my two favorite people debating their love for me--amusing. Carry on.


EDIT.

Just gotta say. Large amount of time? Check again, genius. I've made maybe 10 posts in the last week about the new film. Maybe 15 posts in total.... I've barely been here... same can't be said for you, who's been quite obsessive...

Kettle? Indeed.

 

[tastethecourage]

Your posts just never cease to amaze me with their sheer ignorance and brash stupidity.

You'd be concerned for an adult coming to the Indy films? Why? Because they recognize craft? I've said it before and I'll say it again--the Indiana Jones films are not children's films. You can't reconcile the graphic violence and sexual/ alcoholic currents that run in the films with children's fluff. And if you so belittle the films, what the hell are you doing on an Indiana Jones board?

Do you fault me for having first seen Alice in Wonderland or Labyrinth at the age of 18? Am I wrong for recognizing the craft in a film that may appeal to a child?

Frankly I don't understand you; as I see it, this is nothing but another desperate attempt to rationalize the existence of the 4th film. Yeah, a lot of adults are angered by it. It's not for any lack of trying on their part. If people hate the film, it's just as likely it's due to the fact that it's a terrible film that doesn't hold water or exhibit any form of craft than it is that they're "too grown up." No one's "too grown up" for anything. Craft is craft; just because you watch films to fry your brain doesn't mean the rest of the world follows in those pathetic footsteps.



Carry on.

Erm, I think you missed his point.

He was just pointing out that when you're a child and you view something you truly love - flawed as it may be - you're easier able to build an emotional connection to that piece.

Years down the road, even though you may see its flaws, you still feel as emotionally attached to that film as you did when you were a child, and no amount of convincing from others could ever change that fact.

It's like me. I'm 21, and I played Final Fantasy 7 when I was like ten years old. I loved that game to no end. I still do. Even if they were to remake that game now with better production values, I still wouldn't like it as much as the original. Nothing can ever top the original to me.

 

[Dewy9]

I agree with the first post. I was there, one of the first in line on opening night. I didn't really know what to think at first, so I went and saw it again a few days later and I had a blast. I've seen it again since then and loved it even more and I rank it right up there with Last Crusade (my personal favorite, though I love them all). I guess some people absolutely hate the ending, but that's going to happen with anything in life. All I ask for in a movie is to be entertained and I got that and much more. It had all those "Indy moments" that set it apart from the impersonators (like The Mummy movies) like Indy's getaway in Area 51 and the jungle chase (easily one of my favorite parts of all the movies). I also haven't looked at ants the same way since.

Well, I admit, I'm a total fanboy. I just can't wait to get it on DVD!

 

[BiffMan]

Back on topic for a moment...

Short version - Depressed and bummed after first viewing. Loved 2nd viewing a week later almost to the point it felt like a different film.

Longer version w/personal history no one will care about -
I came out of my first viewing of the movie with a fairly large sense of letdown. I noticed after the fact that a big part of that wasn't even the film, it was the experience watching it the first time around.

My family and I used to go out and catch movies opening night all the time, and I recall Star Wars at age 8 and then Raiders and Wrath of Khan having a tremendous impact on me, mostly due to age, but partly due to the response of the crowd. Those were the first times I remember paying attention to people clapping or cheering at moments in the movie and it really added a lot to the experience for me. Having a theater full of people cheer or clap to a great moment in a movie (Raiders and Wrath of Khan in particular have a lot of great moments like that) along with you is a pretty special experience, almost transcendent in its ability to sweep you up and carry you along. I've found that experience repeated quite often in the late 80s and early 90s, but not so much lately. Iron Man was one that stands out recently that recaptured that feel.

So flash ahead to opening day Thursday... We've had babysitting lined up for 2 weeks, I've purchased tickets a week ago, my wife and 4 close friends are all going to the movie. I've taken the afternoon off work and planning to get to the theater as early as needed to get decent seats and enjoy making an event of it. A return to the blockbuster movies of old. I swing by mid-day to pick up my tickets and there's no one there. Okay, so I don't need to get there half-way through the day like I'd thought. I get there 2hrs early and I'm the only one waiting. People start showing up around 90 minutes before the show, but since they added a 6:45pm show in front of the 7:15pm show that we have tickets for, everyone's going over to the other theater.

They let in the 7:15 show about 45 minutes early and.... I'm the only one sitting in theater. Now, to this point I've actually done a really good job at not building up expectations for the movie itself, but I have been looking forward to another fun opening night experience. So sitting alone in the theater is a slap in the face and I'm left feeling very alone and like I'm the only one who cares about Indy anymore. Sort of a "what if they made another Indy movie and no one came" thing.

I'm sure it was a totally different experience in the 6:45pm show that everyone was going into, but I'm not in that one.

Theater winds up being about 2/3 full but by now I'm in enough of a funk that there's probably no way I could have really enjoyed the movie. So I'm in full looking-for-flaws mode and focusing on the lighting issues and am horrified that we find a Roswell alien at area 51, etc. Note that I don't actually come out hating the movie, probably was around a 6-7/10 for me the first time around, but I sure didn't have a great time and while the crowd laughed at all the right places, I don't think they applauded or cheered once, including at the end.

Memorial Day weekend keeps my distracted okay but come Tuesday, I'm pretty bummed. This is probably the last Indy movie they're going to make, this may very well have been the last Harrison Ford blockbuster movie I ever get to see, and that's the experience I had? So still stewing about it Wednesday morning, around 10:30am I notice I don't have any meetings the rest of the day and spur of the moment, go out and catch an 11:40am show just to try and see the movie in the context of itself, not worry about the crowd, and see if I like it or not.

First show of the theater on a Wed after a holiday weekend and I'm expecting to be the only person in the theater again. 6 people in front of me all get tickets for Indy, and the 70 year old guy saying "one for Indy" brings a smile to my face. Wind up having 80 or so people in the theater, all of the adults. Hey! People do care about Indy!

I watch the movie with as critical an eye and as open of a mind as I can, and guess what? I quite like it. Who'd have guessed? This time around, I notice that Harrison's delivering his lines just fine. I'm over the aliens and while I still don't agree with that choice, it's no more out of left field than Indy finding the Holy Grail or the Ark if you think about it that way. So the story is less distracting, the CGI doesn't seem as off, and the performances seem very solid. I'm not astounded by the movie or anything, but it stands up on its own and its internally consistent enough and most importantly I have fun and have a grin on my face for most the movie. No one's clapping but everyone's chuckling and since I'm not in opening-night mode any longer, the pressure is off and I relaxed and had fun. Probably give it an 8-8.5/10 this time around.

Go see it again on Friday during the day just for yucks and have fun with it again. Go see it on Monday with my friend who went to see it with me opening night and had a similar letdown and in his words "Thanks for bringing me out to see it again, I REALLY enjoyed it this time!"

So in hindsight, for me it was the buildup to the *experience* that got me. Could be that I'd have enjoyed it more if I'd been in a packed theater with people more into the movie. But even with honestly very little expectation on the movie itself, I couldn't help but expect something bigger and more exciting experience-wise on opening night. Probably I need to move to Japan...

But the more objective I get about the movie, the more I enjoy it. And that's really not delusional wishful-thinking, I've had that before and know what that feels like. This is just a matter of getting over my wants and desires and taking the movie at face value. I know that didn't work out well for everyone, but I'm glad it eventually did for me.

 

[Young Indy]

That's awesome man! Glad you love it.

 

[Dr.Tyree]

You know, it's weird...

I've never seen such a consistent theatrical phenomenon mentioned - that EVERY person I have spoken to (and by that I mean more than 20 less than 50) people agree - I am the loudest proponent - YES! It IS mysteriously better the second time around! WEIRD! Weird we have noticed it.



The phenomenon is second only to what we call the "SNL" phenomenon - that when you watch any episode of Saturday Night Live (excluding those from 1975-1978...), it's not that funny - but somehow - the next day, or if you recall sketches to friends who didn't see it - it gets funnier.

But the "Second time around Indy IV" phenomenon is much weirder!

 

[Agent Spalko]

You Got it!!

since I have one of the dreaded DVD's, I have seen it 14 times now ( 6 times in the theater ) and to me, it is as Indy as the others ( and several of you know how big of an Indy fan I am) It fits, It works, and THEY WON!! Indy 4 is a MASSIVE hit! The days of studios only caring what the USA does with it's movies are OVER.

There are the semi vocal fanboys who complain about the smallest details about this film and understand that each Indy movie had those moments if you view them with the same eye that watched KOTCS.....

Then, there are the VERY vocal NON-fanboys ( Spalko, Maxp, and such ) that have hated this movie from the moment that they realized that Lucas and Co. were not making the movie EXACTLY like they wanted them to. Which is STUPID!

Some of us just aren't Lucas lap-dogs like you.

 

[CasualJeff]

Great post, Biffman.

It's funny how much of an impact the rest of the audience's reaction matters to us. You can even see it on these boards: everybody who hates the movie seems to have been with an audience that hated it. You'll see quotes like "the movie was rubbish. When it was over, everybody in the audience quietly exited the theater, scratching their head in disbelief" or "that movie was awesome! The theater was packed and everybody applauded at the end!".

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to see Indy IV a second time. I've been meaning to, but life has gotten in the way. But I had an experience almost exactly like yours with Revenge of the Sith. I caught the midnight showing; it was a good sized crowd, but hardly a sellout. Very muted reaction all around, and I just couldn't get into it, you know? Flash forward to the following Saturday morning, and I take my wife and my nephew to see it--the crowd was electric. Applause during the cool action scenes, dead silence during the "serious" scenes...and several moments where I could hear people around me whispering stuff like "...this is awesome". One of the best movie-going experiences of my life.