The Review thread

[Dr.Jonesy]

Sigh....

It looked cool and worked in the film.

Beyond that, don't care.

 

[michael]

Yeah I agree with that FordFan,

Most of the stuff after the prologue I don't mind. But there are certain parts of the prologue that I'm surprised haven't gotten thrashed on especially with what people said about the CG in Skull.

Maybe it's because we can all agree that de-aging is still in it's infancy phase, the same way certain CG effects in the originals were in its infancy.

 

[T06J00]

I think there are scenes in the prologue that do look a little dodgy - like the CGI when they’re fighting on top of the train, though I didn’t think the de-ageing was a problem. I suppose it‘s overlooked because it’s such a brilliant sequence. It’s Indy in WW2 fighting Nazis on a train! - something people have wanted to see since the 90s. It’s a bit like the bad CGI during the biplane sequence - it’s often overlooked because of the hilarious interaction between Ford and Connery.

 

[fedoraboy]

Except when you see Indy jump from the horse to the tank, you know someone did it. Versus, "I'm pretty sure it was done practically". There's so much CG enhancement, we don't know.

I don’t get how people have this weird way of looking at sequences and only seem able to enjoy stuff if they’ve convinced themselves there’s no special FX involved. These films are filled with special fx and trickery - nothing is real! I’m pretty sure the plane jump is stunt work, but even if it’s not it looks great and is far from the least believable thing in these movies. What about the mine car jump or bridge collapse or raft jump in Doom - these were all models/dummies. The truck chase is stunt doubles and uses sped up footage to achieve some of the effects, the Shanghai escape in Doom and the plane seq in Crusade is all back projection/green screen. The warehouse escape in Skull has loads of CGI embellishments and it’s the best action seq in the movie.

It’s all make believe.

 

[FordFan]

Sigh....

It looked cool and worked in the film.

Beyond that, don't care.

Okay. We happen to care and are discussing it. When the topic moves on, feel free to jump in.

I don’t get how people have this weird way of looking at sequences and only seem able to enjoy stuff if they’ve convinced themselves there’s no special FX involved. These films are filled with special fx and trickery - nothing is real! I’m pretty sure the plane jump is stunt work, but even if it’s not it looks great and is far from the least believable thing in these movies. What about the mine car jump or bridge collapse or raft jump in Doom - these were all models/dummies. The truck chase is stunt doubles and uses sped up footage to achieve some of the effects, the Shanghai escape in Doom and the plane seq in Crusade is all back projection/green screen. The warehouse escape in Skull has loads of CGI embellishments and it’s the best action seq in the movie.

It’s all make believe.

You know you've crafted a subpar action sequence when the defense of it is "Nothing is real!" and "It's all make believe!" Yes, they've used models and puppets and models and dummies in the past. The difference is it was state-of-the-art at the time, inventive, and is head and shoulders above any movie made at that time. It took behind-the-scenes docs or decades of rewatches to find out how they did it. There's no mystery and no intrigue here. What may have been a real stunt is shrouded in so many layers of CGI, it doesn't even matter at that point.

Also, it's been 2 hours into the movie and the villains haven't explicitly said their plan is to travel in time. Save the subpar CG sequence. Get to the damn time travel. When we wonder why the scene with Marion is so brief at the end, it's because the filmmakers felt a need to add unnecessary sequences like this one.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

Okay. We happen to care and are discussing it. When the topic moves on, feel free to jump in.

Can I use this line when you jump into the culture war thread and talk about how needless the topic is?


Also, saying it worked in the film IS contribution to the topic.

 

[FordFan]

Can I use this line when you jump into the culture war thread and talk about how needless the topic is?


Also, saying it worked in the film IS contribution to the topic.

When the discussion in there shifts to how much Indy mansplains throughout the series, I will say, "Sigh... it looked cool and worked in the film. Beyond that, don't care." Hit me with it then.

 

[michael]

You know you've crafted a subpar action sequence when the defense of it is "Nothing is real!" and "It's all make believe!" Yes, they've used models and puppets and models and dummies in the past. The difference is it was state-of-the-art at the time, inventive, and is head and shoulders above any movie made at that time. It took behind-the-scenes docs or decades of rewatches to find out how they did it. There's no mystery and no intrigue here. What may have been a real stunt is shrouded in so many layers of CGI, it doesn't even matter at that point.

Nobody would be talking about the Truck Chase for over 40 years if it was made with a reliance of today's effects.

The dismissal of the practical effects that were used in the originals, seems very antithetical to why these movies were such a hit in the first place.

The bridge scene at the end of Doom, it's literally just a bridge, but wanna know why it's iconinc? CAUSE IT'S REAL.

No way they'd do something like that again.

 

[fedoraboy]

You know you've crafted a subpar action sequence when the defense of it is "Nothing is real!" and "It's all make believe!"

I think you're deliberately misreading what i wrote - I'm not 'defending' anything, I'm pointing out that movies are all smoke and mirrors, and the Indy films especially, that's what I love about them!

Yes, they've used models and puppets and models and dummies in the past. The difference is it was state-of-the-art at the time, inventive, and is head and shoulders above any movie made at that time. It took behind-the-scenes docs or decades of rewatches to find out how they did it.

See, to me it just looked like a dinghy being thrown out of a plane - but I still loved it!

There's no mystery and no intrigue here. What may have been a real stunt is shrouded in so many layers of CGI, it doesn't even matter at that point.

I'm confused, is your enjoyment of a scene ruined if you're unable to decipher how the scene is put together? This seems an odd way to view movies, and also seems to contradict your statement above.

Or is it just that if FX are achieved via a computer you find them inferior to dolls and dummies etc?

I honestly don't get it, as you seem to be simultaneously claiming that the motorcycle-plane jump is both so ridiculous it's beyond the realms of possibility that it was filmed for real AND that it's got a bit of CGI rain over it so it's somehow boring.

You don't like the scene, that's fine and I'm not interested in changing your mind, but let's not pretend that what they're doing here is any different than countless other FX shots in all the movies. It's an action beat achieved using the best stunt and FX available at the time, just like pretty much all the action scenes across the series.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

I never got the impression that FedoraBoy was dismissing the practical effects of the originals. At all.

Do I need to bust out the Strawman avatar again, children?

 

[FordFan]

I think you're deliberately misreading what i wrote - I'm not 'defending' anything, I'm pointing out that movies are all smoke and mirrors, and the Indy films especially, that's what I love about them!

See, to me it just looked like a dinghy being thrown out of a plane - but I still loved it!

I thought the dinghy was fine, but the crash into the mountain was a little ridiculous. And there's green screen. It's also 1984. And the three actors are really in an inflatable boat in rapids.

I'm confused, is your enjoyment of a scene ruined if you're unable to decipher how the scene is put together? This seems an odd way to view movies, and also seems to contradict your statement above.

Or is it just that if FX are achieved via a computer you find them inferior to dolls and dummies etc?

CG, dolls, dummies, stunt men. They're all tools. And the series has used them effectively for the most part to create compelling action sequences. This is one that missed the mark for me. If she hopped a motorbike onto the plane before the rain arrived, it would be more believable to me and maybe a better sequence, but we don't have that.

You don't like the scene, that's fine and I'm not interested in changing your mind, but let's not pretend that what they're doing here is any different than countless other FX shots in all the movies. It's an action beat achieved using the best stunt and FX available at the time, just like pretty much all the action scenes across the series.

Of course there have been other questionable FX shots in the series. The CG gopher in KOTCS is a blight on that movie. And it's in the first shot of the movie, setting the stage for what we can expect. I don't like the motorcycle sequence because it's underwhelming and with the pacing for the movie already being off, I just think the movie could have done without it.

 

[FordFan]

I never got the impression that FedoraBoy was dismissing the practical effects of the originals. At all.

Do I need to bust out the Strawman avatar again, children?

He just cited the dinghy in TOD as an example, which is fine. He's right-- it's not the best effect. He's not spitting on the integrity of the series or something by saying that the series has had underwhelming setpieces before. I'm just saying this is one that deserves to be added to the list.

You call us children right after asking if you should change your avatar. The irony.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

You call us children right after asking if you should change your avatar. The irony.

Lighten up, Francis.

 

[fedoraboy]

I thought the dinghy was fine, but the crash into the mountain was a little ridiculous. And there's green screen. It's also 1984. And the three actors are really in an inflatable boat in rapids.

Actually the three actors are against a (pretty shoddy) green/blue screen - it's stunt doubles in the boat for real, and the cutting between them isn't particularly smooth. Still love the sequence though, even though I can see exactly how it's all put together.

CG, dolls, dummies, stunt men. They're all tools. And the series has used them effectively for the most part to create compelling action sequences. This is one that missed the mark for me. If she hopped a motorbike onto the plane before the rain arrived, it would be more believable to me and maybe a better sequence, but we don't have that.

You don't like the scene, I get it, it's hardly my favourite part of the movie, but I do like the moment. But I've no idea why the rain is the make-or-break thing for you.

I don't like the motorcycle sequence because it's underwhelming and with the pacing for the movie already being off, I just think the movie could have done without it.

See, I agree Dial's pacing isn't as tight as the other films, but I think it needed a few more adrenalin kicks like this moment, not less.

 

[FordFan]

Actually the three actors are against a (pretty shoddy) green/blue screen - it's stunt doubles in the boat for real, and the cutting between them isn't particularly smooth. Still love the sequence though, even though I can see exactly how it's all put together.

When they're in the water, they had the three actors in a closeup in a river rapid, holding down the boat. For the long shot, they used stunt doubles.

You don't like the scene, I get it, it's hardly my favourite part of the movie, but I do like the moment. But I've no idea why the rain is the make-or-break thing for you.

Because there's no way anyone could do that stunt, letalone Helena's character.

See, I agree Dial's pacing isn't as tight as the other films, but I think it needed a few more adrenalin kicks like this moment, not less.

I think the adrenaline kicks it had needed more punch, so that they didn't need to crowbar in this one.

Lighten up, Francis.

Lols!

 

[fedoraboy]

When they're in the water, they had the three actors in a closeup in a river rapid, holding down the boat. For the long shot, they used stunt doubles.

Yes you're right, apologies, I was misremembering the bit where they slide down the mountainside before they go over the cliff edge.

 

[British Raider]

Get into Dune

Haha oh that’s another one I could rabbit on about. Don’t tempt me

This is a really interesting idea. And, actually, having Indy save the day AND THEN be tempted to stay in the past could have given that moment even more emotional weight.

And actually the beats of the film don’t change that much. Helena could simply be taken by Voller during the tomb shoot out (she doesn’t need to be shot) and Indy and Teddy then go to her rescue. I need to think through the ramifications, but actually this would then give Indy a decent end of act 2 set piece which is sort of what is missing for me. If they’d kept Hauke alive there could even be some sort of showdown between him and Indy on the plane. Maybe I’m missing something, but this plot change could really elevate the film, for me at least.

i think it was important to the filmmakers that Helena does the initial saving because of her arc, although I see how you could still have her complete it because she could get the parachute. Only issue is it feels more weightless because Helena doesn’t have to go after Indy when he’s taken, but she chooses to. But yes I get that desire to see Indy to do more in the finale than he does. Although the exchanges with Voller and the whole plane going through the fissure are my favourite in the entire movie. No fisticuffs or gunfights. Just pure suspense, mystery and emotion.

 

[FordFan]

Yes you're right, apologies, I was misremembering the bit where they slide down the mountainside before they go over the cliff edge.

All good man. Everything else you said is absolutely true.

 

[michael]

Lols!

He's obsessed with pointing out if something is a straw man or not. every. single. time. Probably has a Chrome plug in for it.

Notice how all the conversation was civilized until he jumped in and decided to be passive aggressive.

i think he just likes to argue and get defensive than to actually have a discussion.

 

[Dr.Jonesy]

Notice how all the conversation was civilized until he jumped in and decided to be passive aggressive.

Was it? We literally just had someone accuse the other of 'deliberately misreading' a point they were making - and they were likely correct.

But hey, whatever you wanna say